Did women cause the recession?

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Postby OP ED » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:17 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:Was it, sorry.

Thats a good point tho. Spot on in fact.

I actually thought it was OP Ed cos I thought he said something about doing it for male female ratio reasons - and the opportunity it presented.

You know Thelemites and sex:

If it moves fuck it.

If it doesn't move, fuck it till it moves.




Then fuck it.


yes, please, OP ED says enough stupid things on his own to not need to be held responsible for others' mistakes... :wink:

and i did mention that i was a daycare worker, and indeed that the fe/male ratio was one of the deciding factors in my choice of employment. i see no reason to hide how much my daily decision making is based on the dictates of libido.

re: fucking:

guilty. but with the understanding that you aren't fucking something unless its fucking you back, otherwise all you're doing is masturbating...
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Postby Canadian_watcher » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:08 pm

Ages back on page seven, Stephen M responded to me with an example about more 3rd class women surviving the Titanic than did 1st class men.

I have no idea whether:
a) that is true; or
b) if the comment's intention was to disprove that classism is more alive and well than is sexism..

But I'll pretend both a could be answered in the positive and b could be answered in the negative and respond thusly..

I wonder if:
a) there were simply MORE 3rd class women aboard than there were 1st class men;
b) whether the 3rd class women knew more about survival than 1st class men; and/or
c) whether lots of 1st class men had forewarning that the ship was going to sink and so stayed off the boat.

(a little tongue in cheek on the last point but you never know)
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:17 pm

guilty. but with the understanding that you aren't fucking something unless its fucking you back, otherwise all you're doing is masturbating...


Yeah good point.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:28 pm

that we often do this in insensetive ways and with biased language is not excusable, even if it is understandable as a product of our poisonous overculture. I suggest, again quite apart from the effects of our unwitting sexism on the wimmens around us, that we owe it also to ourselves and our gender to refine our methods for doing so into something which is worthy of apex predators.


Its a struggle to get it right. I'm not making any excuses and I appreciate all the comments that followed.

Men are allowed the easy comfort of their unexamined privilege, but my regard will always be shot through with a steely, anxious bolt of caution.



Good point, and I'll try to take it on.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:35 pm

Stephen wrote:Still haven't come up with an example of female oppression in modern society, though.


Women are emerging as hidden victims of the downturn with female earnings falling to their lowest point relative to men's in two decades even as women outshine men in getting jobs.

Earnings figures for May put average female pay at $54,907; just 82 per cent of the $66,581 male average - the lowest proportion in 21 years.

Big jumps in earnings in the construction and mining industries lie behind the change along with much smaller increases or delinces in pay in the retail industry, accommodation cafes and restaurants, and the public service, finance, insurance and communications sectors.

Mining and construction earnings jumped 3.3 and 3.2 per cent in the 3 months to May. By contrast retail earnings climbed 1.2 per cent, and hospitality earnings went backwards 0.2 per cent...

Figures on hours worked also released yesterday show that while the total number of Australians in work remained little changed over the past year the number putting in 40 hours or more per week slid 304,200.

Women have gained 45,100 jobs as men have lost 44,900 jobs.


http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/08/womens-pay-plummets-relative-to-mens.html

and

http://www.bratz.com/

Well there's 2 off the top of my head. (I only noticed that comment last night or I would have responded earlier.)
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Postby OP ED » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:07 pm

Pele'sDaughter wrote: More hurtful is the casual, everyday misogyny of the men we love and trust.



i would have to imagine as much, having not personally experienced it myself. I do know, however, that it is often true that hurt comes more easily from nearby sources.


No, I don't hate men.

It would, however, be fair to say that I don't easily trust them.



for my part, this feeling is mutual. although i might admit that i probably do both hate and fear women.

[all of them]


i should like to elaborate on this more later, as i regard it as being of paramount importance.



the eye rolling and exasperated sighs in response to polite requests to please not use misogynist epithets in my presence or to please use non-gendered language ("humankind").


OP ED has decided to go ahead and hang himself out to dry by lodging a complaint:

attn: wimmintern, to whom it may concern, etc:

while i'm on board, as much as can be possible, with considering it within the normal bounds of politeness to avoid misogynist epithets when i am aware of them, which is not always, i confess that if someone made the second request of me i would almost certainly be guilty of eye rolling and exasperation. This is because i actually consider it to be an unreasonable request. By "unreasonable", i mean, btw, literally impossible in most instances.

for example, i'd suggest that "human" meaning literally "of or belonging to a man" is in fact more genderbiased than the alternative, as i read them. To an IE tribalist using the rootwords, it would be even more exclusionary, literally referring to the tribe as being the property of the chieftain. In many ways, this goes back to my previous statements about different people reading the same words with clashing interpretations. All languages are based on making assumptive biases about objects, some are worse than others, but an unbiased language is an oxymoron.

to me your phrase "nongendered language" literally means nothing in and of itself, therefore if we were talking i'd be forced to make a list of your preferences so that i could entertain your biases instead of my own. Language reflects its cultural usage in all cases, as such, a truly non-gender-biased speech could only exist in a non-biased culture and would likely be dependent on these preexisting conditions for its evolution to begin with.

which is to say, sometimes people roll their eyes because they really do not understand what the points of certain requests are supposed to be.

note that none of this is meant to be hostile, btw, but it is admittedly exasperated. perhaps i have misunderstood the nature of this request, as i often do, and have merely revealed my ignorance to the population at large and exposed myself to its collective wrath.


There are the insidious assumptions guiding our interactions – the supposition that I will regard being exceptionalised as a compliment ("you're not like those other women"), and the presumption that I am an ally against certain kinds of women.


is not being exceptionalised a compliment?

In those instances in my personal life wherein this phrase, minus exactly one syllable, has been whispered in my ear, i have universally understood it as an intentional compliment and not necessarily as an insult directed at the rest of my gender. Should i have?

perhaps the context is more important than the phrase, and i am missing your point again. I had assumed, mistrust being mutual, that exceptionalising is the goal of the mentioned process of attempting to gain trust.


as if womanhood were an exotic locale which provides magnificent fodder for the amateur ethnographer.


but it is, and it does, although that is not all it is or does. I only mention this to make the point that as i see it you have exactly two possibilities wrt men and their inability to directly experience being a woman:

1. having them misunderstand.

2. having them not try to understand.

Having to choose the lesser of evils is never a prospect which is enviable for anyone, but sometimes evil is all there is.

[you could kill us all, i suppose]

which is not to say that i don't get the idea of it being beyond annoying for one to assume that our massive collection of statistics and "facts" about women is sufficient to understand the reality of being woman, but to say that i refuse to apologise for not being other than what i am.


There are the stereotypes – oh, the abundant stereotypes – about women, not me, of course, but other women, those women with their bad driving and their relentless shopping habits and their PMS and their disgusting vanity and their inability to stop talking and their disinterest in Important Things and their trying to trap men and their getting pregnant on purpose and their false rape accusations and their being bitches, sluts, whores, cunts.


While i have met some of these women before, i have a dislike for stereotyping of any sort, so i am in more or less total agreement with consdering this to be an unmixed malady.



There is the unwillingness to listen, a ferociously stubborn not getting it on so many things, so many important things. And the obdurate refusal to believe, to internalise


pegged.

although OP ED believes he is actually incapable of internalising some things. Doesn't get it on so many things.

[see language above]



Not every man does all of these things, or even most of them, and certainly not all the time.


I've personally done most, if not all, of these things and i do many of them all the time. [frequently, that is]


All of whom have given me reason to mistrust them, to use my distrust as a self-protection mechanism, as an essential tool to get through every day, because I never know when I might next get knocked off-kilter with something that puts me in the position, once again, of choosing between my dignity and the serenity of our relationship.

It can come out of nowhere, and usually does. Which leaves me mistrustful by both necessity and design. Not fearful, just resigned – and on my guard. More vulnerability than that allows for the possibility of wounds that do not heal. Wounds to our relationship, the sort of irreparable damage that leaves one unable to look in the eye someone that you loved once upon a time.



that's terrifying. thanks. [really]




Or you can be vigilant and make yourselves trustworthy. Every day.



That is something i'm sure i do not believe and i sincerely doubt i ever will.
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Postby OP ED » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:13 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
Its a struggle to get it right. I'm not making any excuses and I appreciate all the comments that followed.


well i was mostly talking about myself actually, but okay.

i'll yell at you when i notice you doing it, if you'll do the same for me...
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:40 pm

I'll try, tho I'm as likely to miss it in others as in myself.
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Postby compared2what? » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:53 pm

Perelandra wrote:Thank you for that Pele'sDaughter.

Yesterday in public, I had to witness a man repeatedly calling his daughter "drama queen" because she heaved a sigh, as it was hot and she was running around. She was six. I wish I had known how to protest more strongly.

Joe, always a pleasure. It's been a very busy and productive summer.

I believe I understand your views on the name-calling and I respect you and the Penguin. However, there's a principle here wherein it's implied that the male is the norm and the female is pejorative. Of course, there are people who actively mean such a definition. I just wonder how much we contribute to keeping things as they've historically been, innocently or not. JMO.

Carry on.


The application of gender-inapposite pronouns doesn't have a fixed meaning. It varies according to context. And probably regional usage. I'm personally heavily predisposed to read it as value-neutral gender-role subversion, since that's the context in which I'm accustomed to hearing it used. Specifically, by gay men who do not hate women but who do habitually use default-female pronouns for any and all people to whom they wish to refer when speaking in privacy among themselves and their intimate friends. Which is an argot that definitely comes with a certain amount of Miss-Thing-level cattiness fully en suite, no doubt. But that doesn't express or imply a low view of women on the part of the speaker. It's just a sub-type of our old and familiar friend from back in the punk-rock day -- ie, the appropriation, mockery, send-up, defusal and rejection of the terms in which both the speaker and his/ her cadre are traditionally disparaged by society. For which there are many precedents and also numerous contemporary analogs. Language is a living thing. That always has its pros and cons. I mean that every living thing has its pros and cons, not that language always does, incidentally. Although both are true.

Which is not to suggest that gay men, as a class, are any more or less prone to misogyny than anyone else is. I just happen to hang out with radicals, losers, and malcontents. (Plus my family: Imagine their pride!) In my experience, misogyny, like justice (and also sexism) is blind and does not discriminate on the basis of class, race, gender or gender-preference. Except that justice actually does. But you know what I mean.

Joe Hillshoist wrote:There was a point in this thread where c2w said something to the effect of "You lot are fucked, if this wanker had said anything about race, religion or whatever you'd have been all over him, but because he's done the same thing about women you do nothing."


You are the best, Joe, and I salute you. But you're being much too kind to me. I asked RigInters to ask themselves why their response to hateful remarks about women was anomalous from their response to hateful remarks just as a category of remarks, and my reason for asking was that I know why mine is. And was, in point of fact. That post was an afterthought. That reason being: Outrage doesn't prompt me to respond as it would were the group being disparaged Arabs or Jews or members of the GLBT community or blacks or straight white men or Christians or [DISPARAGED GROUP OF YOUR CHOICE HERE]. Whether on consideration or on the spot, I know myself to be outraged by sexism and misogyny with absolute certainty. But I don't routinely or spontaneously feel outrage in response to either. I don't even always notice them any more than I notice the sidewalks. Which I do notice as a matter of practical necessity, of course. But only insofar as I couldn't go anywhere or do anything if they weren't such long familiar and utterly unexceptional features of my native environment that both noticing them and negotiating my way on and around them hadn't also become aspects of my existence that are just too thoroughly integrated for me to bother writing home to myself about them.

I wondered whether anybody else felt the same way. I mean, I'm sure that almost everybody does, at least to some extent. And if they don't, they feel something equivalent. So scratch that. What I meant was: I wondered whether anybody who felt the same way articulated it to themselves in the same or a similar way. Which is a lot less righteous than you're giving me credit for being.

And needless to say, I totally fucking resent that!
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Postby compared2what? » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:43 am

OP ED --

I'm honestly not sure whether I'm confused or you are. But fwiw, either:

(a) Pele'sDaughter is Melissa McEwan; or

(b) the "I" in that post isn't Pele'sDaughter writing for this thread, but rather Melissa McEwan, writing for The Guardian.

I don't know which. But per the "http://tinyurl.com/kjwed9" those are the options. If you know which is correct, please tell me.

Neither WIP nor WHIP has any problem with "mankind." Or with "humankind." We recognized language as a living thing and resolved therfore to respect it as one way back when. Like at the First International-and-a-half or something. And I'm sure I don't have to remind you of the stirring exhortation to roll your eyes at living things as the spirit moves you with which The Wimminist Manifesto so memorably concludes. So you won't be hating and fearing all women in any of our gulags, as far as I'm aware.

And we do so totally pin a rose on your for saying that, btw. After you elaborated, we'll definitely start building a big Wimminist-Realist monument of you in OP-EDgrad Square, assuming that the cooperative farmers out in the lesser Wimminist Republics finally start taking their 9,000-year plan quotas seriously, thus enabling us to make the necessary expenditures. It's gotta happen sometime. Although frankly, I don't know what the fuck is up with those crazy bitches anymore. We're socialists, we don't have any room for welfare queens. What part of that do they not understand? It's not rocket science. At least not according to our rocket scientists (who are primarily former daycare workers), it's not.

Love,

The Wimmintern
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Postby barracuda » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:50 am

Along the lines of the "girlie insults" conversation, I remember an Army research project I'd heard about from the late 1980's in which our valient fighting forces tried to determine what provocation would most swiftly bring a man to blows. The answer, surprisingly, was to twist your fists before your eyes and say, "Wahh, wahh, wahh, you're gonna cry like a widdle fussy baby..." or "poor widdle baby needs his widdle mommy," or some like words. In practice, I have found this much more effective and insulting than referring to your antagonist as "Stephanie Morgana" (which sounds like a ragged drag queen, and is clearly far too elegant for the cad in question). It is also, delightfully, a gender-neutral strategy, and carries with it, at least for me, the rather laughable caché of the vague aforementioned military imprimateur. So while there is some satisfaction to be had by hissing the silibant "pussy" invective, I find that this method allows me a footing on the high ground unavailable with the more frequently used feminising formulations.

Just tryin' to be helpful.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Postby Perelandra » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:04 am

compared2what? wrote:The application of gender-inapposite pronouns doesn't have a fixed meaning. It varies according to context. And probably regional usage. I'm personally heavily predisposed to read it as value-neutral gender-role subversion, since that's the context in which I'm accustomed to hearing it used. Specifically, by gay men who do not hate women but who do habitually use default-female pronouns for any and all people to whom they wish to refer when speaking in privacy among themselves and their intimate friends. Which is an argot that definitely comes with a certain amount of Miss-Thing-level cattiness fully en suite, no doubt. But that doesn't express or imply a low view of women on the part of the speaker. It's just a sub-type of our old and familiar friend from back in the punk-rock day -- ie, the appropriation, mockery, send-up, defusal and rejection of the terms in which both the speaker and his/ her cadre are traditionally disparaged by society. For which there are many precedents and also numerous contemporary analogs. Language is a living thing. That always has its pros and cons. I mean that every living thing has its pros and cons, not that language always does, incidentally. Although both are true.
Understood. I support mockery and appropriation. I apologize for being too exacting about semantics to Penguin and Joe.
“The past is never dead. It's not even past.” - William Faulkner
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Postby compared2what? » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:14 am

Perelandra wrote:
compared2what? wrote:The application of gender-inapposite pronouns doesn't have a fixed meaning. It varies according to context. And probably regional usage. I'm personally heavily predisposed to read it as value-neutral gender-role subversion, since that's the context in which I'm accustomed to hearing it used. Specifically, by gay men who do not hate women but who do habitually use default-female pronouns for any and all people to whom they wish to refer when speaking in privacy among themselves and their intimate friends. Which is an argot that definitely comes with a certain amount of Miss-Thing-level cattiness fully en suite, no doubt. But that doesn't express or imply a low view of women on the part of the speaker. It's just a sub-type of our old and familiar friend from back in the punk-rock day -- ie, the appropriation, mockery, send-up, defusal and rejection of the terms in which both the speaker and his/ her cadre are traditionally disparaged by society. For which there are many precedents and also numerous contemporary analogs. Language is a living thing. That always has its pros and cons. I mean that every living thing has its pros and cons, not that language always does, incidentally. Although both are true.
Understood. I support mockery and appropriation. I apologize for being too exacting about semantics to Penguin and Joe.


I didn't mean to suggest that you had been. And I don't think you were, not one bit. All such questions are totally worth raising and canvassing, imo. I just happened to be wandering around talking to myself when the tattered hem of my hag-appropriate ensemble got caught on the edge of your post and hoisted onto the thread along with a small portion of my babbling, thus giving the appearance of a more linear content-to-content relationship between your post and mine than really exists.

For which I apologize to you.
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Postby compared2what? » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:50 am

I asked RigInters to ask themselves why their response to hateful remarks about women was anomalous from their response to hateful remarks just as a category of remarks, and my reason for asking was that I know why mine is. And was, in point of fact. That post was an afterthought. That reason being: Outrage doesn't prompt me to respond as it would were the group being disparaged Arabs or Jews or members of the GLBT community or blacks or straight white men or Christians or [DISPARAGED GROUP OF YOUR CHOICE HERE]. Whether on consideration or on the spot, I know myself to be outraged by sexism and misogyny with absolute certainty. But I don't routinely or spontaneously feel outrage in response to either. I don't even always notice them any more than I notice the sidewalks. Which I do notice as a matter of practical necessity, of course. But only insofar as I couldn't go anywhere or do anything if they weren't such long familiar and utterly unexceptional features of my native environment that both noticing them and negotiating my way on and around them hadn't also become aspects of my existence that are just too thoroughly integrated for me to bother writing home to myself about them.

I wondered whether anybody else felt the same way. I mean, I'm sure that almost everybody does, at least to some extent. And if they don't, they feel something equivalent. So scratch that. What I meant was: I wondered whether anybody who felt the same way articulated it to themselves in the same or a similar way.


Shorter version:

When I ask myself why no one teaches their little girls to sing:

    If you're evil and you know it,
    Clap your hands (clap your hands)!
    If you're vermin and you know it,
    Clap your hands (clap your hands)!
    If you're scummy and you know it,
    Then you can't afford to show it,
    So if you're evil verminous scum, just clap your hands!



It's not like I'm overtaxing myself with difficult or thorny questions. The answer is that they don't have to. Every girl knows that, whether she knows she does or not. The only real question is how she feels about it. Myself, personally, I enjoy being a girl. That's why I'm a Wimminist.
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Postby OP ED » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:24 am

Perelandra wrote:I apologize for being too exacting about semantics to Penguin and Joe.


one can never be too exacting about semantics.

This should be understood, of course, as the mere opinion of a word daemon who is inclined to take these things more seriously by its nature than many other beings would, due to its unique biology. We such creatures are very vulnerable in this sphere, as it happens, as it only takes the chance proper combination of syllables arranged in the proper order to make us do almost anything.

[especially if thee speaker is a girl]


compared2what? wrote:OP ED --

I'm honestly not sure whether I'm confused or you are. But fwiw, either:

(a) Pele'sDaughter is Melissa McEwan; or

(b) the "I" in that post isn't Pele'sDaughter writing for this thread, but rather Melissa McEwan, writing for The Guardian.

I don't know which. But per the "http://tinyurl.com/kjwed9" those are the options. If you know which is correct, please tell me.


nope, dunno.

its a good article either way, and my thanks goes to one or both of them i suppose for providing it, as i never read the guardian. Unless/until it is obvious to me that such postings do not necessarily represent the views of the poster who posts, i default into assuming their opinions are aligned with exceptions when it is very obvious that an article without commentary is clearly not the views of the poster themselves. In this case i am not familiar enough with either PD or the writer [having just heard of her] to make such a determination.

As it is, i am curious still as to PD's views on my small digressions if/when she has the time and/or patience to respond. i may also forward my questions to the feedback areas at the link, but this is usually not a guaruntee of success, as i have experienced such things, at the least.



Neither WIP nor WHIP has any problem with "mankind." Or with "humankind." We recognized language as a living thing and resolved therfore to respect it as one way back when. Like at the First International-and-a-half or something. And I'm sure I don't have to remind you of the stirring exhortation to roll your eyes at living things as the spirit moves you with which The Wimminist Manifesto so memorably concludes. So you won't be hating and fearing all women in any of our gulags, as far as I'm aware.


maybe next time. i've heard the gulags are lovely this time of year.


And we do so totally pin a rose on your for saying that, btw. After you elaborated, we'll definitely start building a big Wimminist-Realist monument of you in OP-EDgrad Square, assuming that the cooperative farmers out in the lesser Wimminist Republics finally start taking their 9,000-year plan quotas seriously, thus enabling us to make the necessary expenditures. It's gotta happen sometime. Although frankly, I don't know what the fuck is up with those crazy bitches anymore. We're socialists, we don't have any room for welfare queens. What part of that do they not understand? It's not rocket science. At least not according to our rocket scientists (who are primarily former daycare workers), it's not.

Love,

The Wimmintern



well, good luck with sorting all that out. Sounds much too complicated for my tastes. Not everything can be Rocket Science, after all.
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