Gold.

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Re: Gold.

Postby Stephen Morgan » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:43 am

lucky wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:
lucky wrote:The front of all paper notes in the Uk bear the legend "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of Five pounds", ten pounds etc My question is who is making the promise (the bank of England?) and what do i get when I exchange my Five pound note? In other words what "is" five pounds


Five pound coins, shiny round bits of real money. Or possibly one of those and two two-pound coins. The pound coins are simply issued by the government, in whatever numbers they see fit, totally unbacked by debt or by gold or by anything else other than the faith of the public.

The promise is that of the Governor of the Bank of England, on the behalf of the Bank. The bank is wholly owned by the tax-payer at the present time, although controlled by the Monetary Policy Committee, a supposedly apolitical body who are meant to ensure a stable rate of inflation through setting interest rates.


I thought the bankofengland was a private company with its own board of directors?


It was formed as such in the seventeenth century, but was nationalised by the Labour government of 1945-1951. It was, in fact, the first thing nationalised, before they even nationalised the natural monopolies or created the National Health Service, or anything. It was then directly controlled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer until 1997 when Blair's lot put it under the control of an impartial, apolitical group, allegedly, to be run outside the nastiness of democratic politics. Still owned by the government, though.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Gold.

Postby Stephen Morgan » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:45 am

freemason9 wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:
freemason9 wrote:I don't think that modern capitalism and the gold standard are compatible systems.


The past disagree with you.


I added the bold font to emphasize "modern." Capitalism in the past was a younger version in its growth phase. The modern version is in an aggregation phase. This is important.


To me anything since the second world war is modern. Certainly the defining characteristics of modern capitalism, power in the hands of the holder of capital being used to support private ownership, great disparities in wealth and so on, all predate the end of the gold standard.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Gold.

Postby Elihu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:35 am

Stephen Morgan wrote:but was nationalised by the... government of 1945-1951. It was, in fact, the first thing nationalised, before they even nationalised the "natural" monopolies or created the National Health Service, or anything.
yikes...
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Re: Gold.

Postby Elihu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:44 am

in austrian economics, we call this http://www.kitco.com/market/ a Buying oportunity:
But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
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Re: Gold.

Postby Elihu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:59 am

Capitalism in the past was a younger version in its growth phase. The modern version is in an aggregation phase. This is important.
indeed. perhaps we are much closer than we ever dreamed. what comes then?
But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
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Re: Gold.

Postby gnosticheresy_2 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:22 pm

Quick question for the goldbugs: at what point during the collapse of fiat and it's aftermath do you expect to start to be able to use your gold? First of all the atms will stop working, then wages/ cash transfers/ all forms of electronic money transaction will be halted for everyone below government/ megacorp level. Is it then? Or is it after the looting starts? Or the imposition of martial law? Because I'd really like to know.
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Re: Gold.

Postby Elihu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:53 pm

gnosticheresy_2 wrote:Quick question for the goldbugs: at what point during the collapse of fiat and it's aftermath do you expect to start to be able to use your gold? First of all the atms will stop working, then wages/ cash transfers/ all forms of electronic money transaction will be halted for everyone below government/ megacorp level. Is it then? Or is it after the looting starts? Or the imposition of martial law? Because I'd really like to know.


why do you think that gold is presently un-useful?
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Re: Gold.

Postby Elihu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:39 pm

freemason9 wrote:I don't think that modern capitalism and the gold standard are compatible systems.


yeah. one or the other. but not both.
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Re: Gold.

Postby barracuda » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:16 pm

SonicG wrote:without massive economic upheaval...


I'm not certain this is much of an issue anymore. It would seem more and more likely that massive economic upheaval is on going with more to come no matter what road is taken in the realm of currency standards.

But gold prices have taken a massive hit the last few days. It looks as if European sovereign funds as well as individuals and private funds are selling to make their interest payments in dollar denominations. What effect would such a circumstance have upon a metal-backed currency?

Stephen Morgan wrote:As if a small government is a good thing.


:clapping:
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Re: Gold.

Postby Elihu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:32 pm

barracuda wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:As if a small government is a good thing.


:clapping:


"Even if we are all doomed to live under the state, it doesn't follow that there is, or even can be, such a thing as a good state." – Joseph Sobran
But take heart, because I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
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Re: Gold.

Postby barracuda » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:54 pm

Elihu wrote:There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.


Yikes. Approvingly quoting Ayn Rand and Joseph Sobran in the space of two posts. What's up with that?

Anyway, any thoughts on the course of gold-backed currency in the face of the ten percent drop in the price of gold we've seen this week?
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Re: Gold.

Postby Simulist » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:11 pm

I actually didn't even know who Joseph Sobran was; so I looked him up.

Although I wasn't surprised at all to find out that he was a writer for National Review, I was a bit surprised that, according to The New York Times, "he took a skeptical line on the Holocaust."
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Re: Gold.

Postby Elihu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:29 pm

Simulist wrote:I actually didn't even know who Joseph Sobran was; so I looked him up.

Although I wasn't surprised at all to find out that he was a writer for National Review, I was a bit surprised that, according to The New York Times, "he took a skeptical line on the Holocaust."
barracuda wrote:Yikes. Approvingly quoting Ayn Rand and Joseph Sobran in the space of two posts. What's up with that?


i asked for that didn't i? should never go off-topic. i don't know anything about sobran either. just thought it was a good quote.

barracuda wrote:Anyway, any thoughts on the course of gold-backed currency in the face of the ten percent drop in the price of gold we've seen this week?

i've not advocated a gold-backed currency but rather gold as currency. in which case hold your gold and pay with paper.
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Re: Gold.

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:30 pm

odd.

weird.

[inarticulate sound]

reading this, it's as if the graeber/debt thread never happened.

b, seriously, you're just playing around right?

i mean, the material form of money is such a non issue.

money is debt.

*
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Re: Gold.

Postby bks » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:04 am

vk wrote:

i mean, the material form of money is such a non issue.
money is debt.


ok, but It's only a non-issue so long as the material forms in question don't significantly vary w/r/t their use value. Pure money would have no independent use value; it would only be held or exchanged.
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