Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

[Searcher08]

My fucking problem isnt David Icke, it is people derailing every fucking thread about Israel or the middle east with David Icke cartoons and fucking Annunaki articles. A fucking problem which you dont have, obviously. My fucking problem is EVERY SINGLE ISRAEL RELATED ISSUE being put through a "OOooo We haver to be very CAREFUL here, there are fascists that think the same, its all P O I S O N and we'll be C O N T A M I N A T E D!!!". I dont appreciate being told what is acceptable or not to think about. I dont have a frikken desire for a DANGER! DANGER!! WILL ROBINSON!!! SIX DEGREES OF FASCISM game.

to all of it but especially the bolded.

I suppose if we let them, and if they really really wanted to, fascists could contaminate every issue progressives and leftists care about. Then we can sit back and complain how we can't do anything about anything because the fascists might show up.

Fuck the fascists.

This ^^^^^ was then cherry-picked to become VVVV


sunny wrote:
I suppose if we let them, and if they really really wanted to, fascists could contaminate every issue progressives and leftists care about. Then we can sit back and complain how we can't do anything about anything because the fascists might show up.

Fuck the fascists.




Yes, exactly. It's very, very important to keep an eye out for the very real racists and fascists out there who clearly do have plans to target not only conspiracy circles but also Palestinian solidarity work.

The next question then concerns: where we do draw the line in order to keep such negative forces at bay, so that the real work, the vitally important work, can be as effective as possible in fulfilling its crucially important mission.

If you think all of this has little or nothing to do with the conspiracy community, or the movement in support of human rights for Palestinians, then think again...

WHICH LEFT OUT

My fucking problem isnt David Icke, it is people derailing every fucking thread about Israel or the middle east with David Icke cartoons and fucking Annunaki articles. A fucking problem which you dont have, obviously. My fucking problem is EVERY SINGLE ISRAEL RELATED ISSUE being put through a "OOooo We haver to be very CAREFUL here, there are fascists that think the same, its all P O I S O N and we'll be C O N T A M I N A T E D!!!". I dont appreciate being told what is acceptable or not to think about. I dont have a frikken desire for a DANGER! DANGER!! WILL ROBINSON!!! SIX DEGREES OF FASCISM game.

to all of it but especially the bolded.

[Searcher08]

I am not positing a model here however I think YOU YOURSELF ARE, a model which involves concepts such as 'Global Hegemon', 'client states', 'junior partners' on a global basis.

Sure I am- this is what's called having a point of view.

My critique of you was more about having an overly simplistic model, and then squeezing what should be a very complex set of data to fit within a model that veers to close to a binary to really encompass what is going on.

Listen, I have made 'models' for years, systemic ones in particular and I know what is involved in creating one and, believe it or not, I know when I am creating one and when I am not. Modelling for me involves factors like recursion, variety, feedback loops and flow. I sure as fuck have not used terms like that.

You dont seem to understand the difference between model building and exploring a proposition. YOU have a model - let's see it, draw it out for me.

You are also not addressing my issue which is that a (possibly) Mafia related billionaire is buying the Israel related foreign policy of the US on behalf of Israel and that there is no other country which either HAS or IS doing this. Please find a counterexample to this. Another country OR a person who is sponsoring a different policy on Israel

[sunny]

Given the use of opportunistic charges of "anti-Semitism" as an all-purpose weapon, then clearly we do want to differentiate between the Far Right with its reactionaries, racists and fascists and a more legitimate movement for Social Justice.

How does this not make sense?

The opportunistic charges of 'anti-semitism' are coming from people who want to stop the work.

It doesn't make any sense because the most effective way to differentiate oneself from the Far Right is by not living the life of a far rightist. Again, what doesn't make sense is letting other people with agendas ascribe our motivations for us. This is why nothing ever gets done by leftists in this country but it's about time that stopped; there is ALWAYS going to be a thought Nazi jumping out from behind a bush to scare us with how badly we might be portrayed because of some association or another, real or imagined. What's the point of letting that stop us when it'll happen even if we're pure as the driven snow?

[sunny]

You are also not addressing my issue which is that a (possibly) Mafia related billionaire is buying the Israel related foreign policy of the US on behalf of Israel and that there is no other country which either HAS or IS doing this. Please find a counterexample to this. Another country OR a person who is sponsoring a different policy on Israel

For fucks sake, we can't talk about that. First we have to go on for pages and pages on HOW we can talk about that.

[AlicetheKurious]

You are also not addressing my issue which is that a (possibly) Mafia related billionaire is buying the Israel related foreign policy of the US on behalf of Israel and that there is no other country which either HAS or IS doing this. Please find a counterexample to this. Another country OR a person who is sponsoring a different policy on Israel

For fucks sake, we can't talk about that. First we have to go on for pages and pages on HOW we can talk about that.

Or we could all collectively put AD on "ignore", and actually have a real discussion about real issues that matter.

[Searcher08]

If you have vitally important work that is crucially important then I think where you draw the line is letting other people define your motivations for you. You just fucking do the work and let your actions speak for themselves. If some supercilious fruitcakes wants to believe I'm contaminated because I believe in an issue a fascist had his sticky fingers on for utterly different reasons, that is the problem of the supercilious fruitcakes not mine.

Problem is, that work for social change is generally not just a question of the individual. We need movements also.

Given the use of opportunistic charges of "anti-Semitism" as an all-purpose weapon, then clearly we do want to differentiate between the Far Right with its reactionaries, racists and fascists and a more legitimate movement for Social Justice.

How could this not make sense?

It makes perfect sense to you, however I see what you are doing is fundamentally divisive.
You are looking for methods of establishing criteria for excluding people you see as threats.

An example of how this doesnt make sense is that what you are speaking about is covered in fogweed concepts like 'social justice' which actually have extremely different associations to different people.

Where is the VISION? You know like... this?

[American Dream]

Given the use of opportunistic charges of "anti-Semitism" as an all-purpose weapon, then clearly we do want to differentiate between the Far Right with its reactionaries, racists and fascists and a more legitimate movement for Social Justice.

How does this not make sense?

The opportunistic charges of 'anti-semitism' are coming from people who want to stop the work.

It doesn't make any sense because the most effective way to differentiate oneself from the Far Right is by not living the life of a far rightist. Again, what doesn't make sense is letting other people with agendas ascribe our motivations for us. This is why nothing ever gets done by leftists in this country but it's about time that stopped; there is ALWAYS going to be a thought Nazi jumping out from behind a bush to scare us with how badly we might be portrayed because of some association or another, real or imagined. What's the point of letting that stop us when it'll happen even if we're pure as the driven snow?

Sure- for the individual , "the most effective way to differentiate oneself from the Far Right is by not living the life of a far rightist".

For the Movement, the situation is different.

Problem is: there really are racists in America. So here where I live in the United States, all the Palestine solidarity groups that I know of- and I know of a lot- want nothing to do with hardcore reactionaries and racists.

This makes complete sense strategically, ethically and politically, right?

[slimmouse]

The MSM media in the US has very little bandwidth for any questioning of Israel-centric policies.
... I dont see how more bandwidth for opinions that disagree can be created unless purchased - and the LACK of purchase by, for example the Saudis or Gulf Kingdoms shows where their money lies.

The MSM media also has little bandwidth for anything questiioning of Israreal centric policies courtesy of people like AD, who infect this forum like a very nasty rash, contaminating every such thread with the usual array of nonsensical pseudo racist crap.

Theres some goddam neo nazi at every turn in his book, whilst we bomb the shit out of innocent brown people around the world whilst accusing them of bullshit crimes that have nothing whatsoever to do with them. Nothing racist about that AD huh ?

"If people like AD didnt exist, then the PTB would have to create them."

Theres a quote for you , Jack.

Fuk you AD

[AlicetheKurious]

If people like AD didnt exist, then the PTB would have to create them.

Why are you assuming they didn't?

[American Dream]

Gee, all this for suggesting that associating with Far Right groups- and Far Right ideas- might not be so good for the organizing efforts of Palestinian solidarity groups currently active.

How many other people here are actually working with such groups at present?

[barracuda]

Fuk you AD

I thought I asked you politely not to do that. Some people apparently can't take a hint.

Take a day off.

[Searcher08]

I think the irony in this is that I cant imagine a more infiltrated group in the US than Palestinian Rights organisations, except for, maybe the far right.

Seriously, the degree of infiltration in the marginally less fascistic UK into green organisations, animal rights etc was enormous - so I wouldnt bet that that local 'Palestinian Rights' group is all it seems.

AD, my response that follows might seem anodyne, but actually it isnt. At all.

It is to use your best judgement with the people in 'real' world you are working with.
If your alarm bells start ringing at some level, pay attention to what has your attention and maintain your humanity and theirs. Holding that a set of people cannot change will start creating Pygmalion-like effects. Redemption, natch?

[Searcher08]

Gee, all this for suggesting that associating with Far Right groups- and Far Right ideas- might not be so good for the organizing efforts of Palestinian solidarity groups currently active.

How many other people here are actually working with such groups at present?

That is what I'm talking about - you might find it doesnt work to even speak to Ron PAul supporters - other people in other areas of the country, it might. Being prescriptive is a very bad idea around humans IMHO.

[yathrib]

I seem to recall that accusing others of being disinfo agents is against board rules. Just saying.

[American Dream]

I think the irony in this is that I cant imagine a more infiltrated group in the US than Palestinian Rights organisations, except for, maybe the far right.

What are you saying?

Please substantiate your claim.