Fixed Flat Earth?

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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby zangtang » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:00 pm

Elihu » 06 Nov 2015 19:34 wrote:
and this business about antarctica a continent supposedly biggisher than the conus and nobody flies over it? by international treaty? anecdotally can anyone think of another treaty with such a spotless record of compliance? not even a beef?


I'm pretty sure that is so we don't get any airlines accidentally seeing Nazi motherships the size of two aircraft carriers (complicated) or alternatively,
to avoid all the electronics avionics getting fried by all the incoming & converging 'magnetic lines of force' as they home in on & plough into the south Polar opening
because you know....hollow.

Whilst we're enjoying the 'unrestrained hypothesis' - which I do, albeit too infrequently - maybe its both.
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Rory » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:00 pm

coffin_dodger » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:51 pm wrote:Having studied the undoubted beauty of equation, got into it. Then, unexpectedly struck by it's direct comparison to religious scripture written in a language that few understood, fled.

Mathematicians (quickly replacing priests in a secularized society) now have the whispered voice of 'the Great Architect' at their disposal - and obviously the greatest secrets exist in a language known only to high practioners, that few can understand, let alone dispute.

And their power is immense and shall not be questioned. I know better than to try.


Bollocks
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Elvis » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:28 pm

Elihu wrote: as far as what you are seeing through those telescopes, the stars and planets could be moving in a nice circular pattern and earth is still.


As long as we're going to "talk about epistemology" (thanks, Searcher) and not the flat Earth, we could also say that any one of those stars or planets were "still" and the others were moving relative to it. It turns out, however, that even this perspective is flawed and none of this matters because motion does not exist.

I think this is worth posting here in full, it's from "MathPages" so must be legit:


http://mathpages.com/rr/s3-07/3-07.htm

3.7 Zeno and the Paradox of Motion



We may say a thing is at rest when it has not changed its position between now and then, but there is no ‘then’ in ‘now’, so there is no being at rest. Both motion and rest, then, must necessarily occupy time.
Aristotle, 350 BC


The Eleatic school of philosophers was founded by the religious thinker and poet Xenophanes (born c. 570 BC), whose main teaching was that the universe is singular, eternal, and unchanging. "The all is one." According to this view, as developed by later members of the Eleatic school, the appearances of multiplicity, change, and motion are mere illusions. Interestingly, the colony of Elea was founded by a group of Ionian Greeks who, in 545 BC, had been besieged in their seaport city of Phocaea by an invading Persian army, and were ultimately forced to evacuate by sea. They sailed to the island of Corsica, and occupied it after a terrible sea battle with the navies of Carthage and the Etruscans. Just ten years later, in 535 BC, the Carthagians and Etruscans regained the island, driving the Phocaean refugees once again into the sea. This time they landed on the southwestern coast of Italy and founded the colony of Elea, seizing the site from the native Oenotrians. All this happened within the lifetime of Xenophanes, himself a wandering exile from his native city of Colophone in Ionia, from which he too had been force to flee in 545 BC. He lived in Sicily and then in Catana before finally joining the colony at Elea. It's tempting to speculate on how these events may have psychologically influenced the Eleatic school's belief in permanent unalterable oneness, denying the reality of change and plurality in the universe.

The greatest of the Eleatic philosophers was Parmenides (born c. 539 BC). In addition to developing the theme of unchanging oneness, he is also credited with originating the use of logical argument in philosophy. His habit was to accompany each statement of belief with some kind of logical argument for why it must be so. It's possible that this was a conscious innovation, but it seems more likely that the habitual rationalization was simply a peculiar aspect of his intellect. In any case, on this basis he is regarded as the father of metaphysics, and, as such, a key contributor to the evolution of scientific thought.

Parmenides's belief in the absolute unity and constancy of reality is quite radical and abstract, even by modern standards. He maintained that the universe is literally singular and unchangeable. However, his rationalism forced him to acknowledge that appearances are to the contrary, i.e., while he flatly denied the existence of plurality and change, he admitted the appearance of these things. Nevertheless, he insisted these were mere perceptions and opinions, not to be confused with "what is". Not surprisingly, Parmenides was ridiculed for his beliefs. One of Parmenides' students was Zeno, who is best remembered for a series of arguments in which he defends the intelligibility of the Eleatic philosophy by purporting to prove, by logical means, that change (motion) and plurality are impossible.

We can't be sure how the historical Zeno intended his arguments to be taken, since none of his writings have survived. We know his ideas only indirectly through the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Simplicus, and Proclus, none of whom was exactly sympathetic to Zeno's philosophical outlook. Furthermore, we're told that Zeno's arguments were a "youthful effort", and that they were made public without his prior knowledge or consent. Also, even if we accept that his purpose was to defend the Eleatic philosophy against charges of logical inconsistency, it doesn't follow that Zeno necessarily regarded his counter-charges as convincing. It's conceivable that he intended them as satires of (what he viewed as) the fallacious arguments that had been made against Parmenides' ideas. In any case, although we cannot know for sure how Zeno himself viewed his "paradoxes", we can nevertheless examine the arguments themselves, as they've come down to us, to see if they contain - or suggest - anything of interest.

Of the 40 arguments attributed to Zeno by later writers, the four most famous are on the subject of motion:


- The Dichotomy: There is no motion, because that which is moved must arrive at the middle before it arrives at the end, and so on ad infinitum.

- The Achilles: The slower will never be overtaken by the quicker, for that which is pursuing must first reach the point from which that which is fleeing started, so that the slower must always be some distance ahead.

- The Arrow: If everything is either at rest or moving when it occupies a space equal to itself, while the object moved is always in the instant, a moving arrow is unmoved.

- The Stadium: Consider two rows of bodies, each composed of an equal number of bodies of equal size. They pass each other as they travel with equal velocity in opposite directions. Thus, half a time is equal to the whole time.


The first two arguments are usually interpreted as critiques of the idea of continuous motion in infinitely divisible space and time. They differ only in that the first is expressed in terms of absolute motion, whereas the second shows that the same argument applies to relative motion. Regarding these first two arguments, there's a tradition among some high school calculus teachers to present them as "Zeno's Paradox", and then "resolve the paradox" by pointing out that an infinite series can have a finite sum. This may be a useful pedagogical device for beginning calculus students, but it misses an interesting and important philosophical point implied by Zeno's arguments. To see this, we can re-formulate the essence of these two arguments in more modern terms, and show that, far from being vitiated by the convergence of infinite series, they actually depend on the convergence of the geometric series.

Consider a ray of light bouncing between an infinite sequence of mirrors as illustrated below

Image

On the assumption that matter, space, and time are continuous and infinitely divisible (scale invariant), we can conceive of a point-like massless particle (say, a photon) traveling at constant speed through a sequence of mirrors whose sizes and separations decrease geometrically (e.g., by a factor of two) on each step. The envelope around these mirrors is clearly a wedge shape that converges to a point, and the total length of the zigzag path is obviously finite (because the geometric series 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + ... converges), so the particle must reach "the end" in finite time. The essence of Zeno's position against continuity and infinite divisibility is that there is no logical way for the photon to emerge from the sequence of mirrors. The direction in which the photon would be traveling when it emerged would depend on the last mirror it hit, but there is no "last" mirror. Similarly we could construct "Zeno's maze" by having a beam of light directed around a spiral as shown below:

Image

Again the total path is finite, but has no end, i.e., no final direction, and a ray propagating along this path can neither continue nor escape. Of course, modern readers may feel entitled to disregard this line of reasoning, knowing that matter consists of atoms which are not infinitely divisible, so we could never construct an infinite sequence of geometrically decreasing mirrors. Also, every photon has some finite scattering wavelength and thus cannot be treated as a "point particle". Furthermore, even a massless particle such as a photon necessarily has momentum according to the quantum and relativistic relation p = h/l, and the number of rebounds per unit time – and hence the outward pressure on the structure holding the mirrors in place - increases to infinity as the photon approaches the convergent point. However, these arguments merely confirm Zeno's position that the physical world is not scale-invariant or infinitely divisible (noting that Planck’s constant h represents an absolute scale). Thus, we haven't debunked Zeno, we've merely conceded his point. Of course, this point is not, in itself, paradoxical. It simply indicates that at some level the physical world must be regarded as consisting of finite indivisible entities. We arrive at Zeno's paradox only when these arguments against infinite divisibility are combined with the complementary set of arguments (The Arrow and The Stadium) which show that a world consisting of finite indivisible entities is also logically impossible, thereby presenting us with the conclusion that physical reality can be neither continuous nor discontinuous.

The more famous of Zeno's two arguments against discontinuity is "The Arrow", which focuses on the instantaneous physical properties of a moving arrow. He notes that if physical objects exist discretely at a sequence of discrete instants of time, and if no motion occurs in an instant, then we must conclude that there is no motion in any given instant. (As Bertrand Russell commented, this is simply "a plain statement of an elementary fact".) But if there is literally no physical difference between a moving and a non-moving arrow in any given discrete instant, then how does the arrow know from one instant to the next if it is moving? In other words, how is causality transmitted forward in time through a sequence of instants, in each of which motion does not exist?

It's been noted that Zeno's "Arrow" argument could also be made in the context of continuous motion, where in any single slice of time there is (presumed to be) no physical difference between a moving and a non-moving arrow. Thus, Zeno suggests that if all time is composed of instants (continuous or discrete), and motion cannot exist in any instant, then motion cannot exist at all. A naive response to this argument is to point out that although the value of a function f(t) is constant for a given t, the function f(t) may be non-constant at t. But, again, this explanation doesn't really address the phenomenological issue raised by Zeno's argument. A continuous function (as emphasized by Weierstrass) is a static completed entity, so by invoking this model we are essentially agreeing with Parmenides that physical motion does not truly exist, and is just an illusion, i.e., "opinions", arising from our psychological experience of a static unchanging reality.

Of course, to accomplish this we have expanded our concept of "the existing world" to include another dimension. If, instead, we insist on adhering to the view of the entire physical world as a purely spatial expanse, existing in and progressing through a sequence of instants, then we again run into the problem of how a quality that exists only over a range of instants can be causally conveyed through any given instant in which it has no form of existence. Before blithely dismissing this concern as non-sensical, it's worth noting that modern physics has concluded (along with Zeno) that the classical image of space and time was fundamentally wrong, and in fact motion would not be possible in a universe constructed according to the classical model. We now recognize that position and momentum are incompatible variables, in the sense that an exact determination of either one of them causes the other to be completely indeterminate. According to quantum mechanics, the eigenvalues of spatial position are incompatible with the eigenvalues of momentum so, just as Zeno’s arguments suggest, it really is inconceivable for an object to exhibit a definite position and momentum (motion) simultaneously.

The theory of special relativity answers Zeno's concern over the lack of an instantaneous difference between a moving and a non-moving arrow by positing a fundamental re-structuring the basic way in which space and time fit together, such that there really is an instantaneous difference between a moving and a non-moving object, insofar as it makes sense to speak of "an instant" of a physical system with mutually moving elements. Objects in relative motion have different planes of simultaneity, with all the familiar relativistic consequences, so not only does a moving object look different to the world, but the world looks different to a moving object.

This resolution of the paradox of motion presumably never occurred to Zeno, but it's no exaggeration to say that special relativity vindicates Zeno's skepticism and physical intuition about the nature of motion. He was correct that instantaneous velocity in the context of absolute space and absolute time does not correspond to physical reality, and probably doesn't even make sense. From Zeno's point of view, the classical concept of absolute time was not logically sound, and special relativity (or something like it) is a logical necessity, not just an empirical fact. It's even been suggested that if people had taken Zeno's paradoxes more seriously they might have arrived at something like special relativity centuries ago, just on logical grounds. This suggestion goes back at least to Minkowski's famous lecture of "staircase wit" (see Section 1.7). Doubtless it's stretching the point to say that Zeno anticipated the theory of special relativity, but it's undeniably true that his misgivings about the logical consistency of motion in it's classical form were substantially justified. The universe does not (and arguably, could not) work the way people thought it did.

In all four of Zeno's arguments on motion, the implicit point is that if space and time are independent, then logical inconsistencies arise regardless of whether the physical world is continuous or discrete. All of those inconsistencies can be traced to the implication that, if any motion is possible, then the range of conceivable relative velocities must be unbounded, corresponding to Minkowski's "unintelligible" G¥.

What is the alternative? Zeno considers the premise that the range of possible relative velocities is bounded, i.e., there is some maximum achievable (conceivable) relative velocity, and he associates this possibility with the idea that space and time are not infinitely divisible. (It presumably didn't occur to him that another way of achieving this is to assume space and time are not independent.)

This brings us to the last of Zeno's four main arguments on motion, "The Stadium", which has always been the most controversial, partly because the literal translation of its statement is somewhat uncertain. In this argument Zeno appears to be attacking the only remaining alternative to the unintelligible G¥, namely, the possibility of a finite upper bound on conceivable velocity. It's fascinating that he argues in much the same way that modern students do when they're first introduced to the concept of an invariant speed in the theory of special relativity. He says, in effect, that if someone is running towards me from the west at the maximum possible speed, and someone else is approaching me from the east at the maximum possible speed, then they are approaching each other at twice the maximum possible speed...which is a contradiction.

To illustrate the relevance of Zeno's arguments to a discussion of the consequences of special relativity, compare the discussion of time dilation in Section 2.13 of Rindler's "Essential Relativity" with Heath's review of Zeno's Stade paradox in Chapter VIII of "A History of Greek Mathematics". The resemblance is so striking that it's tempting to imagine that either Rindler consciously patterned his discussion on some recollection of Zeno's argument, or it's an example of Jung's collective unconscious. Here is a reproduction of Rindler's Figure 2.4, showing three "snapshots of two sequences of clocks A, B, C,... and A', B', C', ... fixed at certain equal intervals along the x axes of two frames S and S':

Image

These three snapshots are taken at equal intervals by an observer in a third frame S", relative to which S and S' have equal and opposite velocities. Rindler describes the values that must appear on each clock in order to explain the seemingly paradoxical result that each observer considers the clocks of the others to be running slow, in accord with Einsteinian relativity. Compare this with the figure on page 277 of Heath:

Image

where again we have three snapshots of a sequence of clocks (i.e., observers/athletes), this time showing the reference frame S" as well as the two frames S and S' that are moving with equal and opposite velocities relative to S". As Aristotle commented, this scenario evidently led Zeno to the paradoxical conclusion that "half the time is equal to its double", precisely as the freshman physics student suspects when he first considers the implications of relativity.

Surely we can forgive Zeno for not seeing that his arguments can only be satisfactorily answered - from the standpoint of physics - by assuming Lorentzian invariance and the relativity of space and time. According to this view, with it's [sic] rejection of absolute simultaneity, we're inevitably led from a dynamical model in which a single slice of space progresses "evenly and equably" through time, to a purely static representation in which the entire history of each worldline already exists as a completed entity in the plenum of spacetime. This static representation, according to which our perceptions of change and motion are simply the product of our advancing awareness, is strikingly harmonious with the teachings of Parmenides, whose intelligibility Zeno's arguments were designed to defend.

Have we now finally resolved Zeno's "youthful effort"? Given the history of "final resolutions", from Aristotle onwards, it's probably foolhardy to think we've reached the end. It may be that Zeno's arguments on motion, because of their simplicity and universality, will always serve as a kind of "Rorschach image" onto which people can project their most fundamental phenomenological concerns (if they have any).
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby coffin_dodger » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:30 pm

Bollocks


I like the term 'bollocks'. It's concise and conveys a great deal of meaning (in this context) in a single word.
Hadn't seen it for a while - thanks! :thumbsup
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:02 pm

I've been here 10 years. I am disappointed and believe this thread should be locked.

I've never felt it right to interfere with the judgment of any moderator's intervention. I cannot remember ever criticizing any member's suspension or banning. Nor can I ever recall seeking any member suspension or banning.

I've always felt as a welcomed guest at a wonderful dinner filled with remarkable delights with, of course, an occasional unpalatable to my tastes spice or pickling. Overall a wonderful experience, with a lingering lasting of unpalatable pungency.

So, before I offer my last I need to ask you, all those who've taken part in this thread,
what image the screenname divideandconquer evokes in you mind?

Next I'll ask who among you would choose to join a discussion board with such a divisive and doom predicting username?

This "person" has shit in your living room and by engaging him you're asking him what he wants for dessert. His name says it all.

Ban dnc and lock this thread!

Bye!
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:19 pm

(A few of) my cards on the table:

1) I think this has been an outstanding example of RI's immune system at work. Indeed, this thread has given my grizzled broken heart cause for hope.

2) And like I keep saying, chaff is good. RI has a big, big fan in the form our single most active unregistered member: Google's spider bot.

3) Speaking personally, when someone shits in my living room, I never lose my temper and I always exact revenge. I will concede that the first half of divideandconquer's moniker is apt but I rather doubt that particular poster retains the competence for the latter. Threats needs to be, you know, threatening.

My inebriated missive here may provide further insight, but...probably not.
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Rory » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:36 pm

So, before I offer my last I need to ask you, all those who've taken part in this thread,
what image the screenname divideandconquer evokes in you mind?


gobshite
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby zangtang » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:40 pm

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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Elvis » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:50 pm

Image
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:21 pm

Patton? General Patton?

General Patton wrote,

You are learning our ways Luthor. Soon you will join the funposting side.

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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby General Patton » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:50 pm

I read significantly worse on a daily basis. Just yesterday I read a screed by a white nationalist gay brony about how My Little Pony promotes traditional reactionary values. Everyday I keep looking at these shitposters, live action roleplaying about how paganism is going to save the white race when the values that they seek to emulate were from a time when these "whites" were illiterate savages that couldn't even figure out how to use the wheel. Then I will browse my twitter feed it and will be filled with variations of political rumors and half-truths, the likes of which I gave up on debunking well over a year ago. When I sought to debunk something, I will receive a reply that this rumor seemed real, to which I will yet again reply that all rumors must seem plausible and fit within the realm of experience of the individuals who bought into them. Having become so cynical and jaded at my attempts to communicate concepts to other beings but lacking the ability to transmit the raw experiences necessary for them to understand my reality, I will instead seek to nudge them and manipulate them into doing things. I begin to wonder, are some people like horses, meant to be rode? Am I like an explorer traveling over an iron deposit, my compass moving in all directions at once?

I will part from this reverie, my train of thought derailed as I ponder why my friends who became millionaires in their 20's had their lives ruined by their success. Their senses were dulled by early success, their wives grew fat and happy but I sense a certain emptiness in their lives in that they lost the spiritual thread they had once grasped that comes from striving to become the best you can be. That awareness subtly faded, leaving only the husk of material success. Then I will browse yet another "personal army thread" about someone who wants revenge, but I cannot feel the electricity in the air as when Kali calls us to wage war in her name. And so I pass the thread over, wash my dishes and prepare for yet another meditation session to summon an ice age to freeze over all of Europe.

There are no more barriers to cross. All I have in common with the uncontrollable and the insane, the vicious and the evil, all the mayhem I have caused and my utter indifference toward it I have now surpassed. My pain is constant and sharp, and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape. But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis; my punishment continues to elude me, and I gain no deeper knowledge of myself. No new knowledge can be extracted from my telling. This confession has meant nothing.
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby divideandconquer » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:03 pm

Iamwhomiam » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:02 pm wrote:I've been here 10 years. I am disappointed and believe this thread should be locked.

I've never felt it right to interfere with the judgment of any moderator's intervention. I cannot remember ever criticizing any member's suspension or banning. Nor can I ever recall seeking any member suspension or banning.

I've always felt as a welcomed guest at a wonderful dinner filled with remarkable delights with, of course, an occasional unpalatable to my tastes spice or pickling. Overall a wonderful experience, with a lingering lasting of unpalatable pungency.

So, before I offer my last I need to ask you, all those who've taken part in this thread,
what image the screenname divideandconquer evokes in you mind?

Next I'll ask who among you would choose to join a discussion board with such a divisive and doom predicting username?

This "person" has shit in your living room and by engaging him you're asking him what he wants for dessert. His name says it all.

Ban dnc and lock this thread!

Bye!

I agree with you about the name I chose. I have no idea what I was thinking. I really wish I could change it.

And if this thread upsets so many people, then by all means delete it.

As for banning me...well, I guess it's better than getting burned at the stake--I'm glad some of you people don't know where I live. But, it won't be the first time. godlikeproductions and abovetopsecret banned me for starting a thread on the CAFR. This time: flat earth? something I'm not even remotely convinced is true...it's more I'm not sold on the established theory.
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:13 pm

just remember if I could survive the infamous Joseph Campbell is not an anti-semite war......you will survive this :partydance:
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Elvis » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:44 pm

divideandconquer wrote:I agree with you about the name I chose. I have no idea what I was thinking. I really wish I could change it.


Good idea, and appreciated...ask the sheriff, he might oblige.

ON EDIT: oops, I was thinking that you meant the thead title. I think only God can change a user name.
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Re: Fixed Flat Earth?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:20 pm

DNC, If I'm wrong about you being the nefarious character I've condemned you as, you have my sympathies. If you're simply an innocent idiot unaware of your malevolent idiocy, you have my sympathies.

There are many things in and about this world to ponder deeply. And we all do wonder about things we little understand. Some wonder little about much while others wonder much about little. And its often enjoyable to share in discussion what we've learned from our pondering.

The Flat Earth claim is an absurd notion devoured by ignorant people and is meant to undermine their trust and faith in government and government agencies, (as if they needed fantasy to make their case!)

You won't be banned or suspended. Some things done in ignorance can be forgiven.

But I'm not at all convinced that's the case.

Considering the male brain is not physically mature until around age 28, I hope you're younger, though I doubt you are. I do suppose there is a remote chance you've led a very sheltered life and that might account for your pursuing discussion of such an absurd claim as the earth being flat. I've never encountered one such as you irl or online. You could be some sort of savant with incredible writing skill, but no conscience for maturely engaging a subject of interest to the adults who populate RI.

I dunno. I do know the subjects you raised and the opinions you've aired I find abhorrent and reprehensive.
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