JFK/RFK disinfo season: Funny assassin movie-You Kill Me

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Postby orz » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:30 pm

I was pointing out that keyword indexing is STANDARD on the internet and this is why keyword hijacking is used to redirect traffic, something you refuse to acknowledge.
Of course I'll admit it. Search engines search for words, who would argue that? Of course anyone internet-literate (not much of a boast i admit :)) knows that the 'keyword' method is in some ways kind of old and obsolete now, for example pretty much no modern search engine pays attention to the HTML meta tags any more because they're so easy to cheat.

What YOU refuse to acknowledge is that keyword hijacking as you describe it, doesn't acutally seem to work online. Seriously, not one of your examples so far can be demonstrated to have harmed search engine results for the subject in question.

Whenever we put an example to the test, a whole bunch of relevent pages actually do pop up on google, sometimes way above any reference to the "distracting" product/event you claim is Hijacking them. It's at this point in the discussion you inevitably change the subject away from the internet entirely, and copypaste a whole chapter of an outdated psychological text from the 50's, with random phrases in bold like a marvel comic.

Again, you're saying such a thing isn't done...because I did it. Hysterical.
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Search engines and brains.

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:05 pm

[quote="orz"
What YOU refuse to acknowledge is that keyword hijacking as you describe it, doesn't acutally seem to work online. Seriously, not one of your examples so far can be demonstrated to have harmed search engine results for the subject in question.

[/quote]

There are two venues for keyword hijacking or decoys-
>The internet where mainstream media dominates front pages and 'popular searches.'
>The human brain where mutual exclusivity effect pre-biases towards first definitions of a word.

Total success is not required to justify efforts to misdirect. How obvious is that?

You cannot deny that efforts are made by claiming "they don't work" which is not only something YOU cannot prove but does not logically preclude the effort.

When the Washington Post ran an article on 'the decoy effect' all 100 search results for that phrase were references to that article, not any of mine.

Sorry, orz, you are not applying real world logic and context.
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Postby orz » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:23 pm

You're not applying real world logic and context. Alll i'm doing is pointing out that your theories, while based on fact and valid ideas, are usually flawed/nonsensical. I'm just pointing out that they often have no evident effect as you describe them.
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Oh?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:01 am

orz wrote:You're not applying real world logic and context.


Try this for context-
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=12121
(John Prados book on CIA: Oswald done it plus keyword hijack)

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=6797
(Decoy film hides US-Nazi connection from US school kids.)

Alll i'm doing is pointing out that your theories, while based on fact and valid ideas, are usually flawed/nonsensical.

Hunh? Spin again.

I'm just pointing out that they often have no evident effect as you describe them.


Oh. Well then. And your polling sample is....? lol.
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Postby brownzeroed » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:07 am

Sorry Hugh, didn't mean to misrepresent your statements.
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paperclips etc.

Postby professorpan » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:22 pm

Thanks for pointing to the paperclip thread, Hugh. Now anyone who is even slightly persuaded by your theory can watch how myself and others pointed out the huge leaps in logic and the transparent flaws in it.

But you never address the criticism -- you ignore it, move on, and "find" (i.e. manufacture to suit your confirmation bias) another example.

Rinse and repeat. Ad nauseum.

If you just once -- ONCE -- admitted that one of your examples MIGHT be wrong.... Well, let's just say I see zero evidence that you even consider the possibility.

You don't even take the time to respond to specific, documented points that others point out -- for example, in your "challenge" to me, rdr, and orz. I took time to do research and spell out my rebuttal, and, in typical manatee fashion, you slunk away. And you STILL continue to ignore it.

Why bother?
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Re: paperclips etc.

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:18 pm

professorpan wrote:Thanks for pointing to the paperclip thread, Hugh. Now anyone who is even slightly persuaded by your theory can watch how myself and others pointed out the huge leaps in logic and the transparent flaws in it.


Yes, please read, everyone. See Pan's denials and twists denying that a propaganda mill working for the White House since Reagan days is helping to cover up the Bush-Nazi connection by redefining Project Paperclip and marketing it to US school kids as a warm feel-good Holocaust memorial project! There's even a German Karl Rove-type involved who advertises his services and long history of doing damage-control for politicians!

But you never address the criticism -- you ignore it, move on, and "find" (i.e. manufacture to suit your confirmation bias) another example.


I've addressed lots of your so-called criticism. So much that people pm me to ask "why do you bother?"

One method of confirming a hypothesis like keyword hijacking is if results are repeatable. They are.
But instead of admitting this is confirmation, you cry 'confirmation bias.'


If you just once -- ONCE -- admitted that one of your examples MIGHT be wrong.... Well, let's just say I see zero evidence that you even consider the possibility.


I have admitted errors. Yet you haven't admitted ONCE that I was right.

You don't even take the time to respond to specific, documented points that others point out -- for example, in your "challenge" to me, rdr, and orz. I took time to do research and spell out my rebuttal, and, in typical manatee fashion, you slunk away. And you STILL continue to ignore it.


I'ver rebutted you so many times I've learned that you are an energy sink who just keeps denying the obvious, media is heavily-infiltrated by spooks and used as governance, especially so-called entertainment.

The ONLY thread I haven't tired myself out rebutting you is that Eichmann thread.
The ONLY thread.
They ONLY thread.
Yet you LIE you LIE you LIE and say that I never do rebutt you and you use your negative framing tactic of saying I "always slink off" just becausenow I've figure out what you are, Pan.

Why bother?


Exactly. Go back to your UFO thread you started and I'll keep bringing up the many examples of psy-ops that comprise the mind-control venues of TV and movies.

Example:
I just heard Tom Hartmann on Air America Radio (there's a huge CIA-related keyword hijacking of the CIA's proprietary drugs-guns-and-mercenaries airline) sign off from his show saying that tomorrow he'll touch on how a cancer-causing monkey virus is alleged to have something to do with Lee Harvy Oswald.

What a coincidence-not. The Denzel Washington movie 'Deja Vu' (released November 22, 2006 hijacks into a complicated time-travel movie the same aspects of the JFK conspiracy revealed in the book, 'Dr. Mary's Monkey.' The movie plot uses the keywords "New Orleans" and "Ferry."

http://www.themonkeyvirus.com/

Image

Hartmann co-authored a JFK book that exonerated the CIA of the crime and pinned it on the mafia. Amazing! So I think Hartmann's a CIA plant at Air America sent there to establish creds and then steer listeners away from the cryptocracy's assassinations in time for next year's anniversaries of JFK's and RFK's murder by CIA.

Gee, pan, how's that UFO line of inquiry you brought us? Found anymore teapots? :roll:
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testy

Postby professorpan » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:20 pm

I didn't realize manatees got so angry and snappy when cornered.

So Tom Hartmann is one of THEM, too -- because he doesn't agree with you? I wish you could see how paranoid that appears to others outside of your headspace. In fact, there have been multiple examples of your paranoid style of thinking -- remember the times you thought the EZBoard glitches were spooks preventing you from reading messages? Or how you smeared the guy with the teapot synchronicity site as a spook? You still can't get over that one, I see, as you keep bringing it up.

Again, I encourage everyone to read our many back-and-forths and make up their own minds. Every example of keyword hijacking you've put forth has been baseless, illogical, and unprovable. And easily disproven.

I don't care who PMs you or buys your nonsense -- this isn't a popularity contest.

And lots of things are repeatable but nonsensical or illogical. As I've shown with multiple examples, anyone with the same preconceptions in place (aka confirmation bias) can find patterns that seem meaningful or related. That doesn't mean they are meaningful and related in the objective world.

You are SURE that keyword hijacking exists, therefore you cherry-pick data and create your examples. You don't care if they are logical, plausible, or evidence-based. And when people point out the problems with your examples, as I (and others) have done over and over, you refuse to listen.

I'll happily admit you're right WHEN you are right. I would LOVE to find an example of yours that made sense and could be verified.

But I'm not holding my breath.
The ONLY thread I haven't tired myself out rebutting you is that Eichmann thread.
The ONLY thread.
They ONLY thread.
Yet you LIE you LIE you LIE and say that I never do rebutt you and you use your negative framing tactic of saying I "always slink off" just becausenow I've figure out what you are, Pan.


What am I, Hugh? Please tell me. Or will you just hurl your innuendo and slink away?

I don't LIE LIE LIE. I ask questions and provide data and arguments that you ignore. It's available and plain to see to anyone who wants to take the time. Orz, robertdreed and others have called you out on your inconsistencies and illogical leaps as well, so it's not like I'm on some holy jeremiad to sink your ship.

What am I, Hugh? Please. Because I want to know exactly what you think I am. I'll even waive the right to complain if you think I'm a disinfo agent or a paid provocateur, because I think what YOU think I am will reveal more about you than about me.

C'mon, dude. You've compared me to Bush, called me a liar, and now you suggest you know who I am. Tell me. I'm all ears.
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Re: Oh?

Postby orz » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:00 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=6797
(Decoy film hides US-Nazi connection from US school kids.)

Been there done that. However, since paperclips is one of my favorite of your examples, here's a serious quesion. I've asked it in other forms before and never got a reply. Please do answer, it's the main piece of info which i require to try and understand your thinking:

Imagine you saw a new mainstream media mention of the word paperclip; what evidence could make you think that it was not intended as keyword hijacking?

Oh. Well then. And your polling sample is....? lol.

Every single one of your examples that I've tested by putting the keyword into google and easily finding plenty of links to the info that's supposedly being covered up by 'keyword hijacking'?! :?
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Re: Oh?

Postby orz » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:11 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=6797
(Decoy film hides US-Nazi connection from US school kids.)

Been there done that. However, since paperclips is one of my favorite of your examples, here's a serious quesion. I've asked it in other forms before and never got a reply. Please do answer, it's the main piece of info which i require to try and understand your thinking:

Imagine you saw a new mainstream media mention of the word paperclip; what evidence could make you think that it was not intended as keyword hijacking?

Oh. Well then. And your polling sample is....? lol.

Every single one of your examples that I've tested by putting the keyword into google and easily finding plenty of links to the info that's supposedly being covered up by 'keyword hijacking'?! :?
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:04 pm

Although I don't agree with every example you quote Hugh, i do think you are on to something.

But if you would accept a few criticisms...

Stop calling your ideas keyword hijacking.

It already has a specific meaning:

There are two venues for keyword hijacking or decoys-
>The internet where mainstream media dominates front pages and 'popular searches.'
>The human brain where mutual exclusivity effect pre-biases towards first definitions of a word.


Conceptual decoys seems to be a more appropriate term for what you are describing. The way associations are made and held in the brain are conceptual and based on more than one word or keyword at a time. They are based on the way the words are linked together to form meanig. The context.

I think the term keyword hijacking causes you more trouble than its worth, exactly cos of that process. People associate keywords, and the idea of hijacking them, with specific processes - their context is an online process regarding the finding of specific information using specific tools - search engines.

You are talking about the way associations between ideas can be manipulated, Paperclip is a good example.

orz said:

Every single one of your examples that I've tested by putting the keyword into google and easily finding plenty of links to the info that's supposedly being covered up by 'keyword hijacking'?!


Yet I think you are talking about a process that isn't specific to using search engines. It seems as if it would work more efficiently for people who don't use search engines.

IE The idea of paperclip - someone who hasn't been exposed to the idea of Operation Paperclip (tho who that could be I dunno?), could come across the movie you referred to and make those associations (ie paperclip = feel good anti nazi thing) and then if they never really got into operation paperclip that association woulkd always be there.

Its kind of like the process advertising uses. Making associatons between products and desirable memes.

But I think the paperclip example is flawed cos even if someone is making the association you claim, there is already an association between Nazis and Paperclip, I don't think casual exposeure to the idea would imprint the concept of Paperclip = good anti Nazi intentions, in a way that caused people to reject the idea of operation paperclip, or prejudice it on a subconscious level.

It seems to me that the association, if formed casually, would be a link between the concept (or keyword) Paperclip, and the concept Nazi.

IE When someone who has been exposed to the movie, casually or even intensely by seeing the movie, is exposed to the idea of Operation Paperclip, they could already have an association between Paperclips and Nazis that enables them to give the story more relevence. Cos the association between the concepts has already been made.

This may have the opposite effect of what you claim.

There are however other examples you have come up with that would possibly work better.

I think the association idea works, but only in a positive way not a negative one. Ie you associate one idea with another not to discredit the idea, but to misdirect attention away from another idea. (Remember that saying "Any publicity is good publicity as long as they spell your name right" )

Anyway I have to run right now, but when I'm back this arvo I'll get into a bit more detail about what I am talking about.
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paging hugh

Postby professorpan » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:14 am

Yet you LIE you LIE you LIE and say that I never do rebutt you and you use your negative framing tactic of saying I "always slink off" just becausenow I've figure out what you are, Pan.


Still waiting for an answer to what I am, Hugh.

And you won't be able to slink away from this one, pal, cuz the Panster's gonna dog your slippery heels until you reply!
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Postby robert d reed » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:01 am

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Re: paging hugh

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:08 am

(My apologies to RI readers for this bit below. For many months now Professor Pan has been hurling invective at me in threads about psy-ops and this is my verbal fisticuffs rebuke. You might want to look away. There are better things to read.)

professorpan wrote:
Yet you LIE you LIE you LIE and say that I never do rebutt you and you use your negative framing tactic of saying I "always slink off" just becausenow I've figure out what you are, Pan.


Still waiting for an answer to what I am, Hugh.

And you won't be able to slink away from this one, pal, cuz the Panster's gonna dog your slippery heels until you reply!


Pan, you are
>dishonest about a number of things, not the least of which is your claims about our past debates.
>a coincidentalist as demonstrated by your 'pal's' teapot charade closely followed by his admonitions to give up on 9/11 and media.
>an anti-conspiracist for constantly scoffing at me for suggesting there's some "over-arching vast conspiracy."

Yeah, that's what the State Department does, in fact do. They conspire on psy-ops programs as is well-documented.

When I started presenting the idea of keyword hijacking you deflected it with several different methods.

1) First, you said 'must art have meaning inflicted on it?' And you were roundly criticized for suggesting that human artifacts could be devoid of human meaning or values.
You posited something that is impossible by definition and got called out for it.

2) You actually suggested that I was being a fascist for coercing my values on the artifacts being considered for scrutiny. In other words, you reversed my intentions and actions meant to reveal embedded fascist mind viruses.

3) In a thread I wasn't in someone else brought up keyword hijacking and you piped in with "please, let's not resort to news-speak."
Um, news-speak is used to hide meaning. Keyword hijacking exposes hidden meanings, exactly the opposite again.

4) After I posted in my 'Project Paperclip' movie thread the online resume of one of the perps, Peter Schroeder, you commented "Oh, sure. All those Germans must be Nazis."
That was a deliberate and gross distortion of what I had documented from the man's own website.

I realized that you were extremely hostile to the idea of keyword hijacking and would use blatant distortions in an effort to deflect dialogue about the topic.

5) After that you tended to use negative framing about me as "mentally imbalanced."

6) Then you resorted to using the word "honest" the way W uses "freedom," as a weapon. "If only you'd do honest research...." or
"If only you'd listen to honest criticism...."

7) Then you started leaving debates with me in exasperation in which I had presented reams of what I considered the background for my case and later you claimed that you had utterly refuted all my claims. No, you hadn't. You quit and left.

8) Then you made lots of hit-and-run snide comments.

9) Then you brought that 'pal' of yours with the bogus teapot photos to promote the anti-conspiracist theme of coincidence and I said so. It didn't take long until your 'pal' encouraged us all to forget 9/11 and psy-ops media and just "surf." And then he disappeared, another hit-and-run.

10) You claim to be a mentalist who was fascinated by misdirection yet deny such a thing occurs in propaganda media when I point it out.

11) You claim to be studied in psy-ops and not an anti-conspiracist yet you deny that any of the USG psy-ops campaigns of the last sixty years I've pointed out are in fact that. You resort to scoffing at my embrace of "some super over-arching conspiracy."
Uh, so which is it?

12) You always always claim that there is no need for any given psy-ops event and it is all old news anyway. That's quite a minimization of a multi-billion disinfo budget the CIA has deployed. Maybe you should tell them to save their dough.

13) Then in that 'Eichmann' challenge thread I put up and haven't finished due to offline stuff you only came up with ONE forestalling limited hang-out of a CIA release of damning Eichmann documents through a surrogate yet you've claimed you put up "a timeline" and that you "kicked my butt." Lots of chest-pounding over nada.

14) Then you resorted to hurling obscenities by calling what I was writing about "keyword jackoffing."

15) Once you actually wrote that what I was exploring should be considered. Once.
I wonder if you were seeing if this would shut me up.

And there are other trespasses against reasonable discourse I could list, too.


To recap, you are a coincidentalist, an anti-conspiracist, a rude bully, intellectually dishonest, and a liar.

I apologize for leaving this accusation dangling briefly without expanding on it.
I shouldn't have done that.

I think that answers your question.
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Postby robert d reed » Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:44 am

HMW, the record shows that time after time, when challenged on specific claims that you've made, you've been unable to provide an orderly chain of events illustrating how the subliminal manipulations that you allege in a given instance might have been accomplished via a consciously directed, organized plot.

Newbies, lurkers, readers- check the record.

And, for that matter, if you're one of Hugh's defenders, perhaps you'll contribute your own personal set of logical deductions and provide a chain of evidence documenting how and why it is that you agree with him in regard to one or more of the examples that he alleges.

It's all right to speculate about the way that the orders get carried out down the line in order to accomplish the alleged goals, but do it using specifics, not generalities.

Account for such matters as the motivations of all of the players needed to accomplish the schemes that HMW recurrently alleges, the challenges of timing such schemes, provide a rough estimate of the cost in labor (especially in person-hours) from planning to execution, etc.

Finally, demonstrate how continually plotting such elaborate schemes could be demonstrably more perniciously effective as a method of distracting the American public than, say, simply making re-runs of Gilligan's Island available for re-viewing on the telescreen...so much more perniciously effective, as it were, that the benefits justify your roughly enumerated estimate of the costs.

That's the sort of detail that HMW's skeptics- including myself- have repeatedly requested, and what he's repeatedly ducked out on providing.
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