The Bush regime came with its in-built conspiracy theory.

[JackRiddler]

.

I exercise my House member privilege to put this thread back on top of the pile.

[nathan28]

The point, finally, is that too many who oppose the Bush agenda (and the long-running imperialism of which it is but a particularly criminal phase) take the neocons and the "Zionist lobby" and the "Straussians" (total construct) out of context as the primary villains. They are not. They are one element in the whole. The particular function they serve so willingly is to provide the ultra-extremism that makes the other madmen look sane as they implement the overall agenda. They provide a vaguely foreign influence for right-wing critics of imperialism like Buchanan and the Paulistas to scapegoat, and unfortunately many on the left have fallen for the same view.

@ JackR: this is a remedial questiong but what is the overall agenda? Maintaining colonial/mercantile capitalism and socializing market costs while privatizing market gain? The one thing that gets me about these guys is how inter-generational they are. It's just creepy the degree to which they want to ensure that their kids get into the non-stop piracy party.

[JackRiddler]

Maintaining colonial/mercantile capitalism and socializing market costs while privatizing market gain? The one thing that gets me about these guys is how inter-generational they are. It's just creepy the degree to which they want to ensure that their kids get into the non-stop piracy party.

Sounds about right to me. And yes that is one of the creepiest things, to see men with such raging deathwishes nevertheless doing all to place their offspring in succession.

At this stage, I think the agenda is just to stay on top and maximize return in a generally acknowledged state of permanent and possibly terminal multi-crisis -- call it disaster management, I think Klein's terms are useful -- not just for the system but increasingly for the civilization. My belief is a great deal of what looks like NWO plan is just the (self-fulfilling but not inevitable) Malthusian logic that anyone can see in the combination of industrialism, concentrated private wealth, capitalism and its growth imperative, over-consumption, population growth, technological developments and loss of biospheric sustainability (based on what the civilization as a whole is doing very obviously to primary forests and oceans and land and species -- quite apart from the abstract, complicated model of global warming that is now emphasized so as to recuperate a concentrated power agenda).

[nathan28]

Sounds about right to me. And yes that is one of the creepiest things, to see men with such raging deathwishes nevertheless doing all to place their offspring in succession.

At this stage, I think the agenda is just to stay on top and maximize return in a generally acknowledged state of permanent and possibly terminal multi-crisis -- call it disaster management, I think Klein's terms are useful -- not just for the system but increasingly for the civilization. My belief is a great deal of what looks like NWO plan is just the (self-fulfilling but not inevitable) Malthusian logic that anyone can see in the combination of industrialism, concentrated private wealth, capitalism and its growth imperative, over-consumption, population growth, technological developments and loss of biospheric sustainability (based on what the civilization as a whole is doing very obviously to primary forests and oceans and land and species -- quite apart from the abstract, complicated model of global warming that is now emphasized so as to recuperate a concentrated power agenda).

On the deathwish thing I think it's partly an unconscious part of their ideological superstructure. These guys get a massive amount of power, but even that can't keep them from death, so they occasionally get on these Power-over-Life trips that manifest in the Skull & Bones rituals, some of the Freemasonic rites in their degenerate form, the Bohemian Grove effigy, etc. It's the same as the heavy metal aesthetic but just older and a little classier. Probably also part of the reason they indoctrinate their kids so much and seek these $300 million death-payouts to their heirs... if the CFR can't keep you alive forever (free advice to you rich dudes: browse the ImmInst forum for a couple days and buy some resveratrol), maybe your kids can keep the legacy going...

That's an excellent call about "the agenda"... obviously members of the planning elite belong to various conspiracies (if it happens in middle schools it happens in boardrooms) but there's no Grand Unified Conspiracy, and if there is, damn, do are they bad at what they do. Maybe that's also why they like the "free market" so much, because the market only responds, it doesn't look ahead, because looking ahead involves an ideology beyond sheer greed: there's no market incentive--zero, none, not at all, as far as I'm concerned "Green(tm)" is a code-word for "Upper Middle Class Premium Status-Symbol Commodity" if there's not State action on it--to build solar plants when coal is cheap, and no incentive to build a railway infrastructure when people will get into cars with gas at $4/gallon.

[8bitagent]

(The following outline is not quite what I had in mind, but it may serve as a conversation starter on the issue of theses positing "Zionist control of U.S. policy.")

There's a trick the Pentagon planners like to play on us, revealing what they're all about one day and pretending it was a gaffe the next. Remember Bush's post-Sept. 11 declaration of Crusade, and the first operational name for the "global war on terror," Infinite Justice? They knew exactly what they were doing: taking the mantle of the awesome, the all powerful, the all-justified deity. Because of the protests and revulsion, they pretended it was a mistake, and changed the name to the more ambiguous "Enduring Freedom" (whose freedom are we enduring?). But they knew that the message had been sent. Same thing with "Operation Iraqi Liberation," changed hours later in pretend-embarrassment to Operation Iraqi Freedom. You really think they didn't know what the first name spelled?

Its called revelation of the method, and anytime you have people connected to Bush Sr, BCCI, Iran Contra, bin Ladens, Halliburton, KBR, etc it's going to be a Danny Casalaro Mark Lombardi free for all.

I mean the "MOAB" bomb, "Bring it on", P2OG(p2 operation gladio, perhaps rumsfeld?), the Angel decoys used in air, etc...all meant to have deep symbolism understood only to the initiated.

[8bitagent]

An Overton window is moving the goal posts of political possibility. Developed in a thinktank in MI, by a guy who has since died in a small plane crash.

Charles Overton, I believe, but am not certain.

In other words, have these "neocons" act so slimey and over the top...that a "squeaky clean" puppet like Obama can be put into power...people will sigh with relief, and the real Orwellian stuff can be implemented without the public knowing.

Or, you have Fox go out of their way to be over the top and hyper extremist; making people think CNN are the truth tellers.

No risk, no fun. They don't call them Venture Capitalists for nothing. And having gotten away with 9/11, they knew they could get away with anything.

Perhaps, the true elite only *wants* you to think Cheney and Rummy "did it".

The neocons have served as advance ideological shock troops, they do dirty work like the Niger forgeries (which were overkill, hardly necessary for the invasion propaganda), they cut a loud figure in public so that they attract hate, they implicate themselves, they say the most frightful things so that a Bush doesn't have to. That's their role, that's their crime, and that's their price of admission.

Yep, meanwhile their Rockefeller, Kissinger, and Bilderberg puppet masters...and even the invisible hand behind them are never seen.

The PTB WANT you to hate Bush, they want everyone to focus all their hate on Bush

[8bitagent]

On the deathwish thing I think it's partly an unconscious part of their ideological superstructure. These guys get a massive amount of power, but even that can't keep them from death, so they occasionally get on these Power-over-Life trips that manifest in the Skull & Bones rituals, some of the Freemasonic rites in their degenerate form, the Bohemian Grove effigy, etc. It's the same as the heavy metal aesthetic but just older and a little classier. Probably also part of the reason they indoctrinate their kids so much and seek these $300 million death-payouts to their heirs... if the CFR can't keep you alive forever (free advice to you rich dudes: browse the ImmInst forum for a couple days and buy some resveratrol), maybe your kids can keep the legacy going...

Or, esoteric death worship and power is a bigger motive than mere greed and colidation of centralized power? Besides, Skull and Bones and Bohemian Grove, and the errant blue lodge are all low level totem poles.
Mere good ol boy clubs so they can have gay sex with eachother while oppressing real gay people, as well as make business deals and puff eachother up. "Ohh, dear chap, what say we raise oil prices? Indubably sir!" The real black lodges the elite attend will never be covered in some ham handed Alex Jones video.

but there's no Grand Unified Conspiracy

I respectfully disagree:)

I look at just the events of the federal reserve, atomic bomb test/hiroshima, the holocaust, WW1 and WW2, the cold war, JFK assassination, 9/11, war on terror as all the work of the same globalist cabal who are long past mere *human* interests of greed and land.

The point, finally, is that too many who oppose the Bush agenda (and the long-running imperialism of which it is but a particularly criminal phase) take the neocons and the "Zionist lobby" and the "Straussians" (total construct) out of context as the primary villains. They are not. They are one element in the whole. The particular function they serve so willingly is to provide the ultra-extremism that makes the other madmen look sane as they implement the overall agenda. They provide a vaguely foreign influence for right-wing critics of imperialism like Buchanan and the Paulistas to scapegoat, and unfortunately many on the left have fallen for the same view.

@ JackR: this is a remedial questiong but what is the overall agenda? Maintaining colonial/mercantile capitalism and socializing market costs while privatizing market gain? The one thing that gets me about these guys is how inter-generational they are. It's just creepy the degree to which they want to ensure that their kids get into the non-stop piracy party.

What if it's deeper. You said inter-generational. I mean the conspiracy world loves to go on about the Rothschilds banking industry over the centuries, the Rockefellers. Is there merely business as usual, mere old WASPy men serving the needs of the inner head?

Why is the same model of oppression and mass human sacrifice
by the elite today, filling in the same template as thousands of years ago?

Even pro conspiracy theorists will laugh at the idea that theres a wider global, century spanning conspiracy...I don't know how the world truly works, but I feel there's something inherently deeper and more sinister
than a bunch of old Waspy oil cronies and "international banksters".

[JackRiddler]

.

1/2009

renewed relevance given ongoing discussions?

[JackRiddler]

.

Hmm...

Did the Obama administration come in with its own in-built conspiracy?

Does it have an extremist lightning rod, or a mechanism for raising the Overton window? Certainly not in an ideological or policy direction. Rather, it functions (as we've all been aware) to legitimate what went before, and encourage what (for the most part) is an illusion of change. As of day before yesterday, they even adopted the Bush rhetoric on Iran, since going anywhere else might entail change.

(Brazil opened the General Assembly by calling for the restoration of Zelaya in Honduras, as the de facto head of a broad Latin American coalition. Obama appeared with Brown and Sarkozy as wing-men to renew the canard of Iran as future nuclear threat. Such a contrast.)

At the same time, Obama's been characterized as a left-extremist endeavor by the yahoo movement currently following Beck and Paul. An idea that gets lots of attention.

.

[kelley]

On the deathwish thing I think it's partly an unconscious part of their ideological superstructure. These guys get a massive amount of power, but even that can't keep them from death, so they occasionally get on these Power-over-Life trips that manifest in the Skull & Bones rituals, some of the Freemasonic rites in their degenerate form, the Bohemian Grove effigy, etc. It's the same as the heavy metal aesthetic but just older and a little classier. Probably also part of the reason they indoctrinate their kids so much and seek these $300 million death-payouts to their heirs... if the CFR can't keep you alive forever (free advice to you rich dudes: browse the ImmInst forum for a couple days and buy some resveratrol), maybe your kids can keep the legacy going...

Or, esoteric death worship and power is a bigger motive than mere greed and colidation of centralized power? Besides, Skull and Bones and Bohemian Grove, and the errant blue lodge are all low level totem poles.
Mere good ol boy clubs so they can have gay sex with eachother while oppressing real gay people, as well as make business deals and puff eachother up. "Ohh, dear chap, what say we raise oil prices? Indubably sir!" The real black lodges the elite attend will never be covered in some ham handed Alex Jones video.

but there's no Grand Unified Conspiracy

I respectfully disagree:)

I look at just the events of the federal reserve, atomic bomb test/hiroshima, the holocaust, WW1 and WW2, the cold war, JFK assassination, 9/11, war on terror as all the work of the same globalist cabal who are long past mere *human* interests of greed and land.

The point, finally, is that too many who oppose the Bush agenda (and the long-running imperialism of which it is but a particularly criminal phase) take the neocons and the "Zionist lobby" and the "Straussians" (total construct) out of context as the primary villains. They are not. They are one element in the whole. The particular function they serve so willingly is to provide the ultra-extremism that makes the other madmen look sane as they implement the overall agenda. They provide a vaguely foreign influence for right-wing critics of imperialism like Buchanan and the Paulistas to scapegoat, and unfortunately many on the left have fallen for the same view.

@ JackR: this is a remedial questiong but what is the overall agenda? Maintaining colonial/mercantile capitalism and socializing market costs while privatizing market gain? The one thing that gets me about these guys is how inter-generational they are. It's just creepy the degree to which they want to ensure that their kids get into the non-stop piracy party.

What if it's deeper. You said inter-generational. I mean the conspiracy world loves to go on about the Rothschilds banking industry over the centuries, the Rockefellers. Is there merely business as usual, mere old WASPy men serving the needs of the inner head?

Why is the same model of oppression and mass human sacrifice
by the elite today, filling in the same template as thousands of years ago?

Even pro conspiracy theorists will laugh at the idea that theres a wider global, century spanning conspiracy...I don't know how the world truly works, but I feel there's something inherently deeper and more sinister
than a bunch of old Waspy oil cronies and "international banksters".

I've always thought the more visible elements of the neoconservative front active during the last ten years or so in the US played a role similar to the one the Freikorps and the Brownshirts played as the Nazis seized power in Germany in the Thirties. Aside from the propaganda functions each enact in their respective societies, one sometimes glimpses a similar kind of confusion about the actual nature of power in each group. True power in the Nazi state was concentrated in the figure of Hitler and his bodyguard, the SS; postwar power in the US is to be found in certain offices of the national security state that have morphed into the Plan B team, with perhaps Poppy Bush acting as a sort of shadow leader, or malevolent CEO. As I see it, the installation of Obama is the rough equivalent of a 'clean' purge, in that in this contemporary version of a corporate-fascist state there's no need for a bloody "Night of The Long Knives" to either consolidate power or threaten those who seek it for themselves. The manner in which the transnational state is organized ensures that power remains both hidden from view and utterly inaccessible. All that's left is deciding whether one has the peculiar psychological make-up to cozy up to it, or not.

If I continue to think of these scenarios in these somewhat analogical terms mentioned above, the emerging inter-generational machinations at work become more visible, obvious, and somewhat easier to follow, but take on dimensions that boggle the senses.

A good thread, this one. It's almost impossible to comment, but thanks to those who have.

[Nordic]

. Rather, The Obama Administration functions (as we've all been aware) to legitimate what went before, and encourage what (for the most part) is an illusion of change. As of day before yesterday, they even adopted the Bush rhetoric on Iran, since going anywhere else might entail change.

(Pointing to nose and shouting DING DING DING!!!)

Yes, exactly, they shout at us that he's a liberal and a socialist on the one hand, then on the other hand he offers up (during the campaign) a seemingly opposite-of-Bush choice, a relief from the past eight years of pure nightmare.

And when he turns out to be exactly like Bush, well, it's not really SO bad, because, fuck I don't know, because he's black and he's not Bush and he's got such a nice smile and he's trying to reform healthcare so he must be liberal, right?! Even though this "reform" might be nothing but an enormous forced giveaway to the insurance companies.

The Overton Window is the key to understanding the current media. It is why we have the Ann Coulters and the Glenn Becks. Their job is to push the overton window forever toward the fascist, so that yes, we get conditioned to the ideas and when things are implemented that aren't QUITE so bad as what they are spouting (slavery being the most recent, by Beck), then it's really not SO bad.

The other "side" has absolutely no Overton Window energy, nobody pushing the window back toward reality, not in any way shape or form. The fact that Michael Moore is tagged as some kind of radical left wing personage is just so fucking silly, when you actually listen to what he's talking about especially recently, he's just a guy hanging onto the rock in the raging torrent that has already swept everything else away.

[JackRiddler]

.

renewed relevance bump

[norton ash]

Riddler, are you, like, totally on the frigging warpath this weekend?

All this desperate defense of Zionism (right, it's a myth, sure, gotcha) and of your own dearly-white-knuckle-held convictions is getting shrill.

I'll trade you a Wolfowitz, a couple Kristols, a Kissinger, an Abramoff, a Madoff, an Emmanuel, a Feinstein, a Frum, a Libby, a Leiberman, a Greenspan, a Goldman and a Sachs ... maybe a Leo Strauss... oopsie, I'm playing "Spot the Jew."

Every one of them a blight on peace, progress, and justice... and charter members of the ongoing coup.

[JackRiddler]

.

See, there we go. I can say Israel is a criminal state engaging in the military occupation of another people, ethnic cleansing and acts of genocide and advocate immediate cessation of US aid and support. I can say this is based in a racist ideology of Jewish supremacy that lays claim to a territory on the basis of a fictional text. I can decry the great and negative influence of AIPAC and ADL and the "anti-Semitism" slur leveled against anyone who criticizes Israeli policy. I can agree that the history of the Nazi holocaust has been instrumentalized and turned into a quasi religion on behalf of justifying Israel and the US today.

But apparently, unless I place Douglas Feith higher on the world imperialist organizational chart than Rumsfeld and David Rockefeller, I'm defending Zionism. If I talk about capitalism or neoliberalism or oil companies and the Pentagon or resource wars or imperialism instead of focusing entirely on "neocons," I'm defending Zionism. Unless I give greater weight to Leo Strauss (who the fuck?!) than to Samuel Huntington or Wohlstetter or Andrew Marshall as factors in American national security ideology, I'm defending Zionism. Unless I give greater weight to the Israeli art students (most of whom arrested before 9/11) than to the obvious foreknowledge and foreplanning and circumvention of military response on 9/11 itself, I'm defending Zionism. If I don't go with the "Dimona" theory of the JFK assassination (which is weaker than even the mob theory), I'm defending Zionism. That's the Stormfront Lite mentality and you, too, are going to play.

A Brzezinski, a Shultz, an Armitage, a Powell, five or six or twenty Bushes I should probably list separately, Rumsfeld Cheney Poindexter North Ghorbanifar Posada Cariles Denny Hastert Dick Armey Paulson Pelosi Pete Petersen and Glenn Beck... all players with various roles in the ongoing coup. But you don't classify them by ethnic heritage, even where it might be relevant. What the fuck is this proving? Of course you're playing "Find the Jew," how could it be more obvious?

[JackRiddler]

It's back! On the "It WAS all about the oil" thread we even have a case of "Ignore the Non-Jew," as Iraq war engineer and profiteering entrepreneur Galbraith turns out to be too oil-soaked and insufficiently "Zionist" to merit his inclusion among the real war criminals.