Do you believe in God?

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Postby yathrib » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:58 pm

I don't find it blind or ignorant at all, I'm just wondering why you connect it to the angry, spiteful single father we find in the Good Book.

sunny wrote:
yathrib wrote:I don't mean to be snarky about your religious beliefs but... What do you base this on? Certainly not the O.T., which is our major (so far as I know, only) primary source of information about this being. Are you sure this isn't just your imaginary, invisible friend whom you're calling Jehovah because it doesn't sound as crazy as "Gandalf" or "Shazzemadoo?"


I base it on my readings of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek scriptures,(English translations, of course.) and the faith these inspired in me. Yes, faith. I had this faith even before I was able to read the scriptures, even while growing up in a completely non-religious family. (go figure, I grew up in the Deep South) It was just a sense of awe and wonder at all of creation, especially the night sky in an isolated, rural area, and all of the flora and fauna I had the privilege to observe.

Some might call it blind, or ignorant, or whatever else they might like to call it. That's ok with me. You can be snarky if you like, it doesn't bother me at all. You are free to believe as you wish, as am I. Believing in Jehovah gives me peace and comfort, while something else entirely would do the same for others.
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Postby overcoming hope » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:05 pm

safe answer is YES.
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:11 pm

Well. I am a creationist, in that I believe that which we see...be it animals, planets, etc have an artistic touch. Only a fool would believe there's no such thing as evolution given everything evolves...I just have a sense that
things arent all spun from random matter and chaos.

I also believe the world for thousands of years has been manipulated and controlled by a very unGodly heirarchy, who works through the kingdoms and rulers of mankind.

Im definately not a Christian, nor of any faith I would say.

Which brings me to the concept of "God"...as in one omnipresent creator watcher. I guess it's a comforting idea, I just do not accept the Christian
notion of a vengeful God who demands child sacrifice like in the bible, or Job to suffer, or that sort of allegory. Otherwise, whose the good guys?
Some believe evil is just the dog on a leash to God, which is a scary thought.

I tell Christians, just because someone like me is open to the possibility that Christ is no some mythical solar deity/potporri of mythical prophecy stories...doesnt mean I have to "accept" anyone as my personal savior.
They act like you accept Christ is possibly the son of God, you have to be a Christian. It's like I'd love to have tea with Gandhi if he was still around, but I'm not going to become a follower.

Anyways, sorry for the rant there...Ive become so dismayed at the Abrahamic faiths over the years, it's hard to explain to people that my spiritual belief and religion is just simple love, and not some new age stuff.

sunny wrote:I do.

I believe Jehovah is a loving and forgiving God, a distinct and actual Spirit Being, immensely complex and interesting, full of humor, beauty, joy, and awe inspiring power and intelligence. I believe one day He will use His power to right all wrongs, to provide perfect justice, and to reveal ultimate truths. Peace loving peoples the world over should fear him as they would a loving father, while the warmongers and war profiteers, the despicable and depraved haters of good and truth should and will dig holes in the ground and cower before His righteous anger.

But that's just me.


One can only hope.
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Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:12 pm

Yathrib, I have enjoyed a great many of your posts, but I am afraid you are being rather disingenous when you say "I don't mean to be snarky," and then go on to say, "are you sure this isn't just your imaginary, invisible friend whom you're calling Jehovah because it doesn't sound as crazy as "Gandalf" or "Shazzemadoo?"

Frankly, that just sounds like the sort of ignorant, puerile sarcasm that passes for "wit," amongst semi-educated, twenty-something, materialist atheists, followers of "scientism," and devotees of the "amazing" Randi.

Yes, I do mean to be somewhat snarky.

As to the question, yeah, what do you mean by God?

I consider myself a religious person.

Beyond that, I could quite happily agree with what everyone else has said, with the honorable exception of Sunny, and the rather less honorable exception of Sepka.

Safe answer? Pascal's Wager?

I'm not a betting man.
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Postby OP ED » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:19 pm

depends.
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Postby FourthBase » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:23 pm

Hammer of Los wrote:Yathrib, I have enjoyed a great many of your posts, but I am afraid you are being rather disingenous when you say "I don't mean to be snarky," and then go on to say, "are you sure this isn't just your imaginary, invisible friend whom you're calling Jehovah because it doesn't sound as crazy as "Gandalf" or "Shazzemadoo?"

Frankly, that just sounds like the sort of ignorant, puerile sarcasm that passes for "wit," amongst semi-educated, twenty-something, materialist atheists, followers of "scientism," and devotees of the "amazing" Randi.


It's not sarcasm, it's the truth. There is no reason why "Jehovah" should sound any less crazy than "Gandalf" or "Shazzemadoo", because it might as well be those, and people who worship Jehovah (or Allah or Yahweh and so on) might as well be worshipping yet another mystical, mythical, and openly-fictitious literary character. I'm sorry, but I don't feel the need to respect the religious beliefs of others when they express them. Not even a tip of the cap. I think the amount of respect religious beliefs are afforded as a matter of etiquette is irresponsibly excessive. And a healthy disrespect should not be construed as hate speech or intolerance or whatever.
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:27 pm

FourthBase wrote:
Hammer of Los wrote:Yathrib, I have enjoyed a great many of your posts, but I am afraid you are being rather disingenous when you say "I don't mean to be snarky," and then go on to say, "are you sure this isn't just your imaginary, invisible friend whom you're calling Jehovah because it doesn't sound as crazy as "Gandalf" or "Shazzemadoo?"

Frankly, that just sounds like the sort of ignorant, puerile sarcasm that passes for "wit," amongst semi-educated, twenty-something, materialist atheists, followers of "scientism," and devotees of the "amazing" Randi.


It's not sarcasm, it's the truth. There is no reason why "Jehovah" should sound any less crazy than "Gandalf" or "Shazzemadoo", because it might as well be those, and people who worship Jehovah (or Allah or Yahweh and so on) might as well be worshipping yet another mystical, mythical, and openly-fictitious literary character. I'm sorry, but I don't feel the need to respect the religious beliefs of others when they express them. Not even a tip of the cap. I think the amount of respect religious beliefs are afforded as a matter of etiquette is irresponsibly excessive. And a healthy disrespect should not be construed as hate speech or intolerance or whatever.


I feel as if religion is a keleidascope filter, giving every person the idea that they alone have a soul truth...

and I wonder how many people are truly inspired by their faith...or, if its merely geographic happenstances given to them through their parents and culture? How many only have faith because of fear?

If people feel torn internally from their religion, then thats another bad sign.

As much as I think its good to question all religions, I also dont believe in the popular sterile 'there is no God, religion is bad" communist or
liberal youth meme out there today.
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Postby Penguin » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:28 pm

Hmm, imagine if they found Tolkiens Lord of the Rings in some cave 1500 years from now...And managed to translate it...and took it as Holy Writ?

Mwhehee...
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Postby FourthBase » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:45 pm

As much as I think its good to question all religions, I also dont believe in the popular sterile 'there is no God, religion is bad" communist or
liberal youth meme out there today.


Neither do I, but the potency that belongs to religion, especially the force with which organized religion acts upon (controls) individuals and society, ought to be profoundly diminished, in fact might need to be diminished for humanity to have any hope of surviving. (Sorry to all you Pandora's Boxers anti-hopers, but hope is assuredly not an evil. Faith, on the other hand...not so sure.)
Last edited by FourthBase on Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby FourthBase » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:53 pm

Penguin wrote:Hmm, imagine if they found Tolkiens Lord of the Rings in some cave 1500 years from now...And managed to translate it...and took it as Holy Writ?

Mwhehee...


And that's all it was back then, except people were more ignorant and they took their contemporary self-help/sci-fi literature, performance art, lies, and rumors as gospel. Oh wait, Hubbard. Religion is a curse that humanity is still and probably always will be vulnerable against. Religion is bad, if it is collectivised and used to regulate masses -- which is usually what it ends up being used for. So I guess I only oppose half of "God is dead, religion is bad". And actually, if God isn't dead, then the outdated caricature of it that humans have simultaneously invented-then-hoisted-onto-others-to-obey ought to be dead, and the will to obey that kind of God ought to be dead.
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Postby 8bitagent » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:54 pm

FourthBase wrote:
As much as I think its good to question all religions, I also dont believe in the popular sterile 'there is no God, religion is bad" communist or
liberal youth meme out there today.


Neither do I, but the potency that belongs to religion, especially the force with which organized religion acts upon (controls) individuals and society, ought to be profoundly diminished, in fact might need to be diminished for humanity to have any hope of surviving. (Sorry to all you Pandara's Boxers anti-hopers, but hope is assuredly not an evil. Faith, on the other hand...not so sure.)


Well we have seen how much blood and oppression has been cast
from the Abrahamic faiths over the decades...when one feels "they are right", it leads people to commit unthinkable deeds.

This is why if one is to be religious, I promote the idea of cultural tolerence and understanding of other beliefs. I respect Christians more, say, if they have researched Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.

I actually agree with all of what you just said tho
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby kenoma » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:16 pm

nomo wrote:Vote here:
http://www.yesnogod.com/

Obviously skewed towards the Internet-savvy population, but interesting nonetheless.


100% No vote from Vatican City (only one vote, but still...)
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Postby Seamus OBlimey » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:58 pm

I'm agnostic. I won't believe until I am.
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Postby Hammer of Los » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:32 pm

Fourthbase, my complaint was that dear old Yathrib claimed to not want to be snarky, and yet still snarked away. Yathrib's response to Sunny seemed derisory, and I didn't think it was warranted. You are entitled to disagree, and support Yathrib's decision to seek to characterise Sunny's beliefs with scorn and derision. On the other hand, I am not sure why you saw the need to interject on Yathrib's behalf. Oh well, suit yourself.

I agree wholly that organised religion and priestcraft are awful things, but I hardly think Sunny is to blame for that. I could be wrong.

I think my notion that I am a religious person stems from my belief that there is an underlying moral order to the universe - yeah, what does that mean, you say, well, I'm not sure.

It might mean simply that my catholic upbringing brought into being a highly developed superego in my psyche.

Or it might mean that I cannot bring myself to believe that evil can truly prosper, and good truly fail to bring any succor, although I concede this certainly seems to often be the case within the context of a single human person's lifetime.

But I can't abide the sterile universe of "atheistic"* materialist reductionism, where the "good," or morality cannot be objectively studied, except as contingent facts of our particular human psychologies. In this worldview, it is "do what thou wilt," so long as you can get away with it. Why be good? Why refrain from evil? Within the narrow constraints of the worldview to which I refer, such questions have no answers.

I like to think that the evil will suffer for their evil. I guess I'm vindictive like that. I also guess I will suffer for that vindictiveness.

Karma, of course, being simply cause and effect, is, in a sense, amoral. Yet it is not simply a function of human psychology, but an objective fact about the Universe. I do think of the "good" as that which is conducive to the health and growth of the human organism. I consider this a "spiritual" belief, and I find for myself that selfishness, intolerance, and "materialism," create a contraction of consciousness, and a certain psychological malaise, whereas love, service to others, and a delight in the things of the spirit/mind are quite liberating and joy-bringing.

Strangely enough, I quite like Slimmouse's "medium cooky" version.

It's very difficult to talk about these things, which is why I usually don't. I have kind of studied religion for a long time, yet have few to no fixed beliefs. But you can't discount it out of hand, everyone has a "religion" of some kind, don't they? I guess you could replace the word "religion," with "worldview," or even "orientation," or probably any number of other terms, but it is what is central to our lives as thinking, acting human beings.

*strictly speaking, I am an atheist. I dont believe in, as Sunny puts it, "a distinct and actual Spirit Being." I don't believe in a personal deity, for the simple fact that my notion of "God," as perhaps ultimate truth or reality, cannot be said to be personal, anymore than it can be said to be not-personal. Not so much either/or as neither/nor. Not this, not that. In a sense it encompasses and includes, and indeed transcends the binary concept of person/not-person. This sort of thinking is quite common in "eastern" religions. Yeah, I'm a new agey kinda guy. I blame Fritjof Capra. And J Krishnamurti. And Alan Watts. And David Hume. And Bishop Berkeley. And a thousand other name checks too, for that matter, Jesus, the "historical" Buddha, and numerous Taoists included. Yes, even the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and the Swami A C Bhaktivedanta. I'd better stop there because the list will just grow and grow. I guess I must have some sort of religious mania. Don't worry though, I shall draw the line at citing David Shayler.

:wink:
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Postby sunny » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:47 pm

Hammer:

I agree wholly that organised religion and priestcraft are awful things, but I hardly think Sunny is to blame for that. I could be wrong.


Hee hee, no you are not wrong. I loathe organized religion and every priest can go fuck himself, as far as I'm concerned.(I wish they would fuck themselves and leave the little ones alone)Thank you for your gallant defense of my beliefs, but as I wrote earlier, people are free to be as snarky as they like. It's no skin off my nose at all, I'm just happy over here in my little corner of the universe and quite content to live by that old saw 'to each his own', philosophy wise.
Choose love
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