"what is money, how did it originate"

[Wilbur Whatley]

Gosh, this sounds just like your typical KKK meeting.

[Penguin]

What? Are you implying were implying that all bankers are jewish? And its somehow antisemitic to talk about world finance?
What a load of carrots. I for one am not saying anything of the sort.
Thats a strawman if I ever saw one. Protocols of the zion quality fried peanuts.

[smiths]

i happen to have by great chance, a copy of that book on my desk at this moment, i thought i'd give it a quick read, but its 1,309 pages long,

anyway, for the sake of good future referencing purposes,

that quote is on page 324 of the 1966 MacMillan edition

Quigley also goes on to name the men at the banks, Montagu Norman (Bankof England), Bennjamin Strong (New York Fed), Charles Rist (Bank of France), and Hjalmar Schacht (Reichsbank)

old Hjalmar is one of the more interesting bankers of the twentieth century

[vigilant]

They missed an event in 1999. Glass Stegall repealed, turning back the clock of time, to a time when shit hits the fan...

As this "bailout" plan comes together, it becomes apparent that Clinton was the prodigal son of the hounds of hell. One of the first things of signifigance that he did when he became President was to repeal Glass Stegall. When it was repealed, he delivered us into the jaws of slavery, just as he was picked to do.


http://www.affil.org/consumer_rsc/usury.php
The History of Usury
With credit to James M. Ackerman, Interest Rates and the Law: A History of Usury, 1981, Arizona St. L.J.61 (1981)

What do Hammurabi, Plato, Charlemagne, Dante and Queens Mary and Elizabeth have in common? They all condemned, outlawed or regulated the charging of interest on loans. In fact, until the early 1900s interest rates in the United States were kept at or near 10%. And until 1979, loan laws provided some interest rate cap in every state.

Then everything changed. Governments and banks put profits before people. And now the lending industry is spiraling out of control.


u·su·ry (yoo'zhe-ree) n.pl. u·su·ries

1. The practice of lending money and charging the borrower interest, especially at an exorbitant or illegally high rate. 2. An excessive or illegally high rate of interest charged on borrowed money. 3. Archaic. Interest charged or paid on a loan.

Old Testament
The Prophet Ezekiel includes usury in a list of “abominable things,” along with rape, murder, robbery and idolatry. Ezekiel 18:19-13.

Jews are forbidden to lend at interest to one another. Exodus 22:25; Deuteronomy 23:19-20, Leviticus 25:35-37.


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1750 B.C.
The Code of Hammurabi regulates the interest that can be charged on a loan. Historical records indicate that many loans were made below the legal limit.


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800-600 B.C.
Both Plato and Aristotle believed usury was immoral and unjust. The Greeks at first regulate interest, and then deregulate it. After deregulation, there was so much unregulated debt that Athenians were sold into slavery and threatened revolt.


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443 B.C.
The Romans adopt the “Twelve Tables” and cap interest at 8 1/3%.


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88 B.C.
The Roman usury rate is raised to 12%.


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533 A.D.
The Roman “Code of Justinian” sets a graduated maximum interest rate that did not go over 8 1/3 % for loans to ordinary citizens. This law lasts until 1543 A.D.


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7th centruy
The Quran 2:275-276 states: "...those you take usury will arise on the Day of Resurrection like someone tormented by Satan's touch. That is because they say 'Trade and usury are the same,' But God has allowed trade and forbidden usury. Whoever, on receiving God's warning, stops taking usury make keep his past gains -- God will be his judge -- but whoever goes back to usury will be an inhabitant of the Fire, therein to remain."


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800 A.D.
Charlemagne outlaws interest throughout his empire.


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11th century
In England, the taking of any interest at all is punishable by taking the usurer’s land and chattels.


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Medieval Canon Law
Usury is punishable by ex-communication.


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Medieval Roman Law
Usurer’s are fined 4X the amount taken, while robbery is penalized at twice the amount taken.


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1306-1321
Dante pens “The Inferno,” in which he places usurers at the lowest ledge in the seventh circle of hell – lower than murderers.


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1553-1558
During the reign of Queen Mary, English Parliament again disallows the collection of interest.


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1570
During the Reign of Queen Elizabeth, interest rates in England are limited to under 10%. This law lasts until 1854.


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1713
Adoption in England of the “Statue of Anne,” an Act to reduce interest rates.


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Early 18th Century
American colonies adopt usury laws, setting the interest cap at 8%.


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After 1776
All of the States in the Union adopt a general usury. Most states set the interest limit at 6%.


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Early 1900s
A move to deregulation causes 11 states to eliminate their usury laws. Nine more states raise the usury cap to 10% or 12%. Banks are not making personal loans. “Salary Lenders” fill the need by “purchasing” a worker’s future wages in exchange for a high fee – equal to a lending rate of 10% - 33%.


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1916
A Uniform Small Loan Law allows specially-licensed lenders to charge higher interest rates—up to 36%—in return for adhering to strict standards of lending.


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1945-1979
All states adopt special loan laws that cap interest at higher than the general usury rate—at 36%—but cap it nevertheless.


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1978
The US Supreme Court decides that national banks may export the state interest rate law of their home state into any state where they do business. In response, South Dakota eliminates its interest rate caps. Several credit card issuing banks move to South Dakota and operate nationally with no interest rate cap.


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1980
Congress preempts state interest rate controls on all first lien mortgages. This enables predatory mortgage lenders to make seemingly affordable loans, like adjustable rate and interest-only loans, that lead to foreclosure for many.


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1994
Congress adopts the Home Ownership and Equity Protection Act of 1994, which provides some substantive protections to home mortgage borrowers with interest rates or points that are extraordinarily expensive, but sets no limits on what can be charged for these loans.


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1994-2005
Many states and cities try to protect their citizens by adopting state statutes and local ordinances to curb predatory lending, but preemption claims by the federal government impede their efforts. Numerous bills are introduced in Congress to protect consumers in a wide range of transactions, including rent-to-own, credit cards, payday lending, and predatory mortgage lending, but none of these bills makes it to a hearing.


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2006
The Department of Defense releases its findings that predatory lending, particularly payday loans, undermines military readiness, harms the morale of troops and their families, and adds to the cost of fielding an all-volunteer fighting force. DOD urges Congress to cap interest on loans marketed to the military at 36%.


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2007
The launch of Americans for Fairness in Lending (AFFIL), a national multi-organization collaborative message and action campaign designed to raise public awareness and generate outrage about predatory lending.

[vigilant]

Wilbur for an attorney who has supposedly struggled with multitudes of civil rights cases as you purport to have done, you have some notions about "fairness" that perplex me.

What is fair about taking peoples labor and energy, which is what they use to gather their necessaties for life, and thus their livliehood, and giving it to individuals that hoard enough of it to sustain several million people? They start wars with this stolen labor and energy, kill a bunch of people, so that they may steal more too. What is fair and just about that?

Can you tell me? Will you tell me?

[Lord Balto]

..."If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth programme, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super-rich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead, it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs.

Communism or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite."..
"W.Cleon Skousen wrote in his book 'The Naked Capitalist'.

"Power from any source tends to create an appetite for additional power... It was almost inevitable that the super-rich would one day aspire to control not only their own wealth, but the wealth of the whole world.

To achieve this, they were perfectly willing to feed the ambitions of the power-hungry political conspirators who were committed to the overthrow of all existing governments and the establishments of a central world-wide dictatorship."...

reminds me of being completely freaked out in berkeley back in 1991 reading Valis. you guys in the know prolly remember that Dick's arch-nemesis Ferris F. Fremont (Nixon) was actually trying to bring on global communism. i find that an amazing insight really, looking back at what's been happening since reading that book. the fall of the berlin wall took on an entirely new meaning for me. and that was then.

****
mistaken me, it was Radio Free Albemuth: i went looking for Valis after reading that.

I'm not sure I'd use Phil Dick as a template for any analysis of the American economic system. He was, after all, doing an awful lot of speed, which produces paranoia as a common side effect. Not to mention his "pink light" experience where he originally decided the Roman Empire had never ended and that we were being controlled by a satellite called VALIS hanging in the sky over earth. Now I have been at some pains to map the origins of this notion of control from the sky in my study of Hebrew chronology, so it's not surprising that that particular idea should appear, updated for the modern world, in the drug-addled mind of a science fiction author trying to meet deadlines. The bottom line is that the current financial crisis is the result of the victory of greed over common sense and not of some global conspiracy to establish socialism or communism as the world economic system. Someone once said, and I paraphrase, Never ascribe to conspiracy what can more easily be explained by stupidity.

As for Jewish bankers, it is true that, proportionately, there are more Jewish bankers per capita than non-Jewish bankers. This has historical origins, the Jews having been blocked from other professions by legal restrictions and the Christians having been prevented from lending money by Church dictate. But remember that this is a per capita surplus. On the grand scale of things there are many many more non-Jewish bankers than Jewish bankers, so that the per capita excess is insignificant. The fact is that your fellow Christians have done this to you, not any of my relatives.

[Percival]

Why would that surprise you? All lawyers are sworn agents of the Crown (No, not the Queen) through the Temple Bar on Chancery Lane in the City of London. Their job is first and foremost to protect the banksters (and no, not all banksters are Jews.)

[Penguin]

The bottom line is that the current financial crisis is the result of the victory of greed over common sense and not of some global conspiracy to establish socialism or communism as the world economic system. Someone once said, and I paraphrase, Never ascribe to conspiracy what can more easily be explained by stupidity.

Well, greedy (stupid) people playing power games with the Earth as the Risk board? (stupid as in out of touch with nature and compassion)

And you really should check out the book "Major Jordans diaries". If the UN/US secretly supplying Soviets with nuclear research in the 40s isnt some strong nightmare conspiracy stuff, I dont know what is.

For "Socialism" - see China. The perfect mix of totalitarianism (Hitler, Mussolini vs Business) and "free market capitalism" Thats the "new" model for the West too.

Or outright criminal mob rule like in Italy...And the US.

Thats all Im saying. Dont seen no lizards in my time. And no Jew Ive met and shaken hands with was a banker.

And dear Balto, that paraphrase cuts both ways. Dont ascribe to stupidity that which can be better explained by malice...It is just as valid that way.

Just like you can play massive headgames with Occams Razor, if you know that thats what your adversary likes to use for philosophical support

[Penguin]

As for Jewish bankers, it is true that, proportionately, there are more Jewish bankers per capita than non-Jewish bankers. This has historical origins, the Jews having been blocked from other professions by legal restrictions and the Christians having been prevented from lending money by Church dictate. But remember that this is a per capita surplus. On the grand scale of things there are many many more non-Jewish bankers than Jewish bankers, so that the per capita excess is insignificant. The fact is that your fellow Christians have done this to you, not any of my relatives.

Yea. Nothing funny there IMO. In the Middle-Ages (afaik) the Church only allowed jewish money lenders/bankers. Thats why many old banking houses were jewish. No conspiracy there, except that of the Catholics

[marmot]

Fwiw, here are two theorist which may be of reading interest in regards to money:

Georg Simmel, in particular The Philosophy of Money.

And Anthony Giddens, in particular The Consequences of Modernity.

[Lord Balto]

As for where money came from (the original topic), I'd imagine it had something to do with the temples storing grain in the early river valley civilizations and handing out chits for the grain you had stored there.

Ah, right again: http://www.projects.ex.ac.uk/RDavies/ar ... #invention

[Penguin]

Not really actually - seashells, squirrel skins (they used squirrel skins here as recently as a hundred years ago )

Maybe it was first in the hands of the priests, before being appropriated by kings and assorted rulers.

And then taken from the kings and assorteds in more modern times, by enterprising businessmen..

And today, we have the Wall Street suits, and City of London suits, and Zurich suits.

[marmot]

As for where money came from (the original topic), I'd imagine it had something to do with the temples storing grain in the early river valley civilizations and handing out chits for the grain you had stored there.

Ah, right again: http://www.projects.ex.ac.uk/RDavies/ar ... #invention

Below, I've transcribed for you an excerpt from U of Chicago Press 1992 title Disfiguring: Art, Architecture, Religion by Mark C. Taylor (p. 146), wherein he shines some interesting light on the origin of money.

It has become a cliche to insist that in modern society money is God. There is, however, more truth in this observation than is usually recognized. Throughout history money and religion share a suprisingly close relationship. Considerable evidence suggest that the origin of money is associated with religious rituals. The word money derives from the epithet for Jupiter's sister and wife---Juno Moneta. As the warning goddess, Juno Moneta was best known for three "monitory tales: (1) she advised the Romans to sacrifice a pregnant sow to Cybele, to avert an earthquake; (2) she told them, when they feared for finances in the war against Pyrrhus, that money would never fail those whose cause was just; and (3) the geese that were crated for sacrifice in her temple at the city wall cackled and thus alerted the Romans to the intended surprise attack by the Gauls in 390 B.C.E. Roman coins were first minted in the Temple of Juno Moneta," thereby initiating the ancient practice of associating mints with temples. "The oldest altar to Juno Moneta was located on Mons Albanus, where a bull sacrifice, the central ritual of the Latin confederacy, was annually held."

Other etymological clues suggest a link between money and ritual sacrifice. The German world Geld (money), Horst Kurnitzky points out, "means more or less 'sacrifice' [Opfer]. Geld is Geld, weil es gilt [Money is money, because it is valid]. But in the eighth century, this verb gelten [to be valid] meant 'to sacrifice.'" The Greek word drachma, which is the name of a common coin, once was used to designate a handful of sacrificial meat (obios). In Latin pecunia, which is the root of the English pecuniary, derives from pecus (cattle). The association of money with sacrificial animals--especially cattle and bulls--is particularly suggestive. As is well known, the bull was commonly used in ancient ritual sacrifices. In Rome, the Mithraic cult, which was a serious threat to early Christianity, centered on the sacrifice of the bull, and in Greece, the god Dionysus was traditionally represented as a bull. In many of its forms, religion involves an economy of sacrifice in which the relationship between the believer and the god is established by the currency they share.

[Lord Balto]

Rome is a little late for the ORIGIN of anything.

[789]

Hümmm.
http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/show ... ?p=1307455