Former Ford Prez McNamara has died

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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:12 am

compared2what? wrote:.....
It was an excellent movie, and I'm not saying otherwise. But it was just a movie. His life was something else entirely.

Yes, his life was something else.
That's what makes the movie so fascinating, hearing the self-justification and ego defense, seeing how much he will admit.

But I don't like reading other people trying to characterize why he was actually crying or upset.

That is where we have to guess what it was in his life that traumatized him that he won't articulate.

I'm sure the murder of JFK and the subsequent war with millions dead he 'had to' pursue weighs on him despite the facade. He wasn't dumb.

There's tapes of him in LBJ meetings sounding reluctant to pursue the war but LBJ was pushing him full steam ahead.
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Postby lupercal » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:59 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Alexander Cockburn took the opportunity to drop a bomb of his own in his McNamara piece.

Alexander Cockburn wrote:The last time we saw him vividly was in 2004 as the star of Morris's wildly over-praised, documentary The Fog of War, talking comfortably about the millions of people he's helped to kill.

Time and again, McNamara got away with it in that film, cowering in the shadow of baroque monsters like LeMay or LBJ, choking up about his choice of Kennedy's gravesite in Arlington, sniffling at the memory of Johnson giving him the Medal of Freedom, spouting nonsense about how Kennedy would have pulled out of Vietnam, muffling himself in the ever- useful camouflage of the "fog of war."

This is Cockburn denying the single most important document from the Vietnam War, NSAM 263.

Cockburn is 'anti-conspiracy theorist' and denies anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. He's also a 9/11 official story promoter, no surprise, and hosts government disinformationists like Manuel Garcia from Livermore Labs on his website.

That's why Cockburn, Like Noam Chomsky, has to deny the history of National Security Advisory Memorandum 263 which JFK signed on October 11, 1963 to begin the end of US military involvement in Vietnam with a token withdrawal to be followed by the rest after 1964. Kennedy was already besieged by rabid commie-haters and knew he couldn't get away with the full withdrawal until after his re-election. Lt. Col. L. Fletcher Prouty was involved in JFK's efforts to establish this change in policy and document it. NSAM 273 was drafted the day before JFK was killed and then signed a few days later by LBJ thereby putting the show back on the road for 10 more years of slaughterous profiteering.

The 'anti-conspiracy theory' gatekeepers have to deny Kennedy's NSAM 263 history because it provides a big motive for a widespread high-level plot by interlocking agencies to carry out an assassination plot.

Other than this, most of Cockburn's accusations against McNamara are valid.


Hugh I agree completely until that last point. From the little I know about McNamara it strikes me that few if any of Cockburn's insinuations are valid. In fact the impression I got reading this classless grave dance is that it's all been carefully twisted in that clever spook way to erase the spooks, their crimes, and the crimes of their clients, like LBJ and the oil boys, and replace them with disinfo baloney. For example:

So when President Kennedy and Defense Secretary McNamara, took power in 1961, became privy to all intelligence from the spy flights. . . . McNamara played a crucial, enabling role in the arms race in nuclear missiles.


To my knowledge, Kennedy was never "privy to all intelligence" about anything, at least not intel or military intelligence, as he eventually figured out. And then there's this:

It was entirely appropriate and logical that he began his services to the military working in Japan as a civilian analyst for Curt LeMay, the psychopathic Air Force general who ordered the raid that produced the Tokyo firestorm and who went on to become head of the Strategic Air Command and who boasted to Kennedy during the Cuban missile crisis that his missiles and B-52s were ready, willing and able to reduce the Soviet Union to a “smoldering, irradiated ruin in three hours”, a deed he was eager to accomplish.


WTF? A deed who was eager to accomplish? Not Kennedy, who resolutely resisted one deceptive attempt after the other by the CIA to drag the US into war, preferably nuclear, with Cuba, kill Castro and blame it on RFK, etc. The antecedent of "he" is slightly unclear, but let's not pretend Cockburn isn't writing yet another JFK hit piece under the cover of a McNamara obit. And then there's THIS:

McNamara had very dirty hands, however hard he and admirers like Morris scrubbed them. Why did Defense Secretary McNamara overrule all expert review and procurement recommendations and insist that General Dynamics rather than Boeing make the disastrous F-111, at that time one of the largest procurement contracts in the Pentagon's history? Could it be that Henry Crown of Chicago was calling in some chits for his role in fixing the 1960 JFK vote in Cook County, Illinois? Crown, of Chicago Sand and Gravel, had $300 million of the mob's money in GD debentures, and after the disaster of the Convair, GD needed the F-111 to avoid going belly- up, taking the mob's $300 million with it.


Talk about a seven-course meal of RW nuttery. I suppose I should take it apart and google up refutations of every insinuation but what's the point? Cockburn isn't even claiming it's factual anyway. He's just throwing out "questions." Frankly his whole piece has that Larouche-like stink of far-right disinfo tricked out as leftist outrage. As far as I'm concerned Cockburn is a garden variety mockingbird and I say that as a former admirer.
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Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:13 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:
compared2what? wrote:.....
It was an excellent movie, and I'm not saying otherwise. But it was just a movie. His life was something else entirely.

Yes, his life was something else.
That's what makes the movie so fascinating, hearing the self-justification and ego defense, seeing how much he will admit.

But I don't like reading other people trying to characterize why he was actually crying or upset.

That is where we have to guess what it was in his life that traumatized him that he won't articulate.

I'm sure the murder of JFK and the subsequent war with millions dead he 'had to' pursue weighs on him despite the facade. He wasn't dumb.

There's tapes of him in LBJ meetings sounding reluctant to pursue the war but LBJ was pushing him full steam ahead.


I agree with just about all of that. And would only add: What he did is serious business. Whereas what he felt is merely interesting. I mean, I feel for him as I do for all my fellow feeling-havers, and as I would if the movie had never been made.

Despite all of which, war crimes are still war crimes whether the war criminal enjoyed committing them or not.

ON EDIT: for clarity's sake, added the post to which I was responding, as I hadn't seen the intervening one.
Last edited by compared2what? on Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 8bitagent » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:01 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Alexander Cockburn took the opportunity to drop a bomb of his own in his McNamara piece.

Alexander Cockburn wrote:The last time we saw him vividly was in 2004 as the star of Morris's wildly over-praised, documentary The Fog of War, talking comfortably about the millions of people he's helped to kill.

Time and again, McNamara got away with it in that film, cowering in the shadow of baroque monsters like LeMay or LBJ, choking up about his choice of Kennedy's gravesite in Arlington, sniffling at the memory of Johnson giving him the Medal of Freedom, spouting nonsense about how Kennedy would have pulled out of Vietnam, muffling himself in the ever- useful camouflage of the "fog of war."

This is Cockburn denying the single most important document from the Vietnam War, NSAM 263.

Cockburn is 'anti-conspiracy theorist' and denies anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. He's also a 9/11 official story promoter, no surprise, and hosts government disinformationists like Manuel Garcia from Livermore Labs on his website.

That's why Cockburn, Like Noam Chomsky, has to deny the history of National Security Advisory Memorandum 263 which JFK signed on October 11, 1963 to begin the end of US military involvement in Vietnam with a token withdrawal to be followed by the rest after 1964. Kennedy was already besieged by rabid commie-haters and knew he couldn't get away with the full withdrawal until after his re-election. Lt. Col. L. Fletcher Prouty was involved in JFK's efforts to establish this change in policy and document it. NSAM 273 was drafted the day before JFK was killed and then signed a few days later by LBJ thereby putting the show back on the road for 10 more years of slaughterous profiteering.

The 'anti-conspiracy theory' gatekeepers have to deny Kennedy's NSAM 263 history because it provides a big motive for a widespread high-level plot by interlocking agencies to carry out an assassination plot.

Other than this, most of Cockburn's accusations against McNamara are valid.
Except that nobody should watch 'The Fog of War' and take McNamara's presentation of himself at face value, obviously.

But you shouldn't miss the chance to watch an American Secretary of War admit "we were war criminals." Probably the only time this will happen. And it is true of every one of them.

This audio excerpt was played on Amy Goodman's Democracy Now news show today. Howard Zinn sputtered incoherently with misleading characterizations of McNamara's motives.

Oddly, in Zinn's 2008 graphic novelization of his 'A People's History of American Empire' the entire JFK term was left out, a convenient way to avoid NSAM 263 and the assassination. Zinn has repeatedly denied the value of exposing JFK's murder and 9/11, too. Maybe he's just old and tired.

BUT if JFK hadn't been killed, McNamara wouldn't have had to ride the mil-intel tiger that was determined to hunt in Vietnam and which ate anyone who got in the way.

Just ask ex-CIA whistleblower, Ralph McGehee, who did the analysis that proved the CIA's assessment of enemy numbers was so far off that the war was unwinnable and so he was shunted off to a basement corner to await retirement after he told William Colby the bad news right to his face. To cover for this meeting, McGehee was briefly restationed in Vietnam and Colby staged a media event for reporters by having them trail along as he asked a gathering of intel people how their analysis was going. McGehee could only say he'd just arrived and didn't have anything yet. At the following drinking reception, Colby stuck to McGehee like glue so all the journos could see them. McGehee says in his book that he had no idea why Colby was doing this but it is pretty obvious this was a decoy for the original 'we can't win' briefing McGehee had previously given Colby. Colby covered both his and the CIA's ass by visibly making McGehee look ignorant.

When McGehee's book, 'Deadly Deceits,' was finally going to be published in 1982 after months of CIA efforts to delete passages, the spooks at CIA-CBS pre-empted McGehee's expose of CIA fudging analysis by accusing General Westmoreland at the Pentagon of committing this deception. This resulted in Westmoreland's lengthy libel suit against CIA-CBS that was eventually settled out of court but the CIA had managed to deflect their crimes onto the Pentagon just in time.
See 'Pentagon Papers.' Much the same tactic.

The same trick was just used by the CIA-NYTimes with it's 'expose' of retired Pentagon generals acting as media mouthpieces to promote and sustain the invasion of Iraq.The NYTimes journo who wrote this up won the CIA-NYTimes a prize. Anyone remember a CIA-NYTimes reporter named Judith Miller. I seem to recall she had a lot to do with the invasion of Iraq and if she isn't a spook, I don't know who is.

Learn your Vietnam history and you'll have a template for current war-mongering.


Best post of yours Hugh in some time, and I'd say you're by far the best person I've seen to properly contextualize the deeper meaning of JFK's life and death as well as Vietnam.

Man, William Colby. Guy was found dead in the water outside his home
after working hard to help John Decamp uncover the Franklin Coverup after the initial trial.
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Postby 8bitagent » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:07 am

Ok, question to all RI'ers:

Is it possible for someone in a high position of power responsible for architecting events that lead to many deaths and misery...is it
possible for them to truly repent and change course?

Many left leaning people I've seen accept Mcnamara's seeming contrition after seeing Errol Morris' documentary.

Zbigniew Brzezinski has in recent time gone on the offense against the neocons, Israeli policy, the war in Iraq, saber rattling with Iran, etc.
The 9/11 "truth" folks continue to badger him, but ol' Zbig seems like he's gone out of his way(least on msnbc) to seem like a big ol lefty.

Fat chance we will ever see say; David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Negroponte, Wolfowitz, Bush Sr, Dubya, etc
ever have a change of heart or "Mcnamara" moment.
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Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:34 pm

8bitagent wrote:Ok, question to all RI'ers:

Is it possible for someone in a high position of power responsible for architecting events that lead to many deaths and misery...is it
possible for them to truly repent and change course?

Many left leaning people I've seen accept Mcnamara's seeming contrition after seeing Errol Morris' documentary.

Zbigniew Brzezinski has in recent time gone on the offense against the neocons, Israeli policy, the war in Iraq, saber rattling with Iran, etc.
The 9/11 "truth" folks continue to badger him, but ol' Zbig seems like he's gone out of his way(least on msnbc) to seem like a big ol lefty.

Fat chance we will ever see say; David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Negroponte, Wolfowitz, Bush Sr, Dubya, etc
ever have a change of heart or "Mcnamara" moment.


I think it's eminently possible for a public servant both to feel and to express contrition for his complicity in decisions, policies and actions that resulted in millions of deaths and/or destroyed lives, as well as the near-total devastation of every functional or semi-functional aspect of a foreign society at enormous political and economic expense to the nation he was serving. Perhaps even probable, when enough time has passed for there to be very little if any doubt that the case he once very publicly made for those decisions, policies and actions was (at best) based on a highly selective presentation of the facts as he then knew them. And that's an accurate characterization of the context in which contrition emerged as one of the features of MacNamara's assessment of his own performance as Secretary of Defense. Even if you take him at his word wrt his good-faith motivation for hawking the Gulf of Tonkin incident to congress and the media as a true and justified cassus belli.

I further think it's eminently possible -- and actually highly, highly probable -- for that contrition to be truly heartfelt and sincere.

So. For the sake of argument, let's stipulate that MacNamara was deeply and profoundly contrite, then pose these questions:

Does his personal contrition amount to an adequate redress or reparation for his actions, some of which were undertaken (presumably with the approval of the President at whose pleasure he served) prior to Johnson's tenure? As, for example, with the creation of the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Defense Supply Agency, and the increase of the number of American special forces "advisory" troops on the ground in Vietnam from the 500 on the job when MacNamara took the gig to 16,000 at the time of Kennedy's death?

Was his acceptance of and dedication to cold-war principles of American exceptionalism under which the creation, instigation and support of actual violent armed conflict in Vietnam was held to be a lesser evil than the ostensible threat to national interests posed by the successful establishment of a communist government led by a man who had been always been open to forging alliances with any world power that was willing to recognize and protect Vietnam's national independence any more justified because he mistakenly believed that he could use systems analysis to keep the blood and treasure expenditure levels lower than they would have been if the only option to non-intervention was conventional warfare?

In other words, is it really a redeeming quality that his sincere attachment to his own fancy-ass formula for turning war-mongering into a net life-positive endeavor blinded him to its inherent senselessness?

Furthermore, is it really credible that MacNamara had no idea that Ho Chi Minh had fought against Vichy France and Japan in the Pacific theater during WWII as a proxy commander for the OSS? Or that all of his cooperation with Chinese and Soviet powers was the direct result of it being his only recourse in the face of American (or French/American) opposition to Vietnamese independence?

Because I'd say that even if he really didn't know that there was nothing preventing the United States from establishing a peaceful diplomatic relationship with Vietnam other than America's stubborn and self-interested refusal to recognize the Vietnamese desire for sovereignty as legitimate -- and I find the proposition that he really didn't more than a little dubious, personally -- the enormity of the damage that followed from his failure to consider any or all of the readily available information that might have enabled him to see the situation with a little less fog and a little more clarity was far too great for any after-the-fact expressions of personal contrition to mean a whole lot more than that he was as human as anyone else is. Which really shouldn't be that much of a newsflash to anybody.

If his expressed contrition had been backed by any corrective actions substantially greater than widely publicizing his regret in the form of a narrative that made a major point out of (for the sake of argument, accurately) laying as much blame as possible on people other than himself, there might then be a valid case to be made that he had sincerely made every possible effort to atone for his unwitting betrayal of the public trust. I suppose. It still wouldn't have done much to minimize the extent to which he facilitated all the death, torture and suffering of non-American civilians, though.

He wasn't the worst villain the country has ever known, granted. But he was plenty fucking bad. And however numerous in quantity and pure in quality his personally sympathetic attributes are stipulated to have been, the crimes in which he was involved were crimes. And he was involved in them. It's just not possible to emotionally identify them out of existence. And even if it were, what would anyone gain by it that was worth the exercise? Other than Robert MacNamara?

Anyone who can answer two or more of those questions in a way that provides a persuasive defense for what looks to me like his clear complicity in the great big act of malfeasance he oversaw while Secretary of Defense, as opposed to a persuasive case for a proportional distribution of accountability to each bad actor in accordance with what each contributed to the wrongdoing under which MacNamara's slice of the pie isn't as big as LBJ's (or whomever's) will be the recipient of my undying gratitude. Because frankly, I want to believe. I just don't see any way to do that without deceiving myself wrt issues too consequential for self-deception to be an acceptable option.

ON EDIT: It's a minor point, but I wanted and forgot to make it:

lupercal wrote:Talk about a seven-course meal of RW nuttery. I suppose I should take it apart and google up refutations of every insinuation but what's the point? Cockburn isn't even claiming it's factual anyway. He's just throwing out "questions." Frankly his whole piece has that Larouche-like stink of far-right disinfo tricked out as leftist outrage. As far as I'm concerned Cockburn is a garden variety mockingbird and I say that as a former admirer.


I don't think it's really fair to Cockburn to call him a garden-variety mockingbird. If nothing else, he's got a certain flair for contrarianism that sets him apart. He's definitely the only marquee-name self-identified leftist writer working today who's not too proud to cite a LaRouchie source while pushing a LaRouchie agenda, who also despises no one as much as he does Chip Berlet unless it's Fletcher Prouty.

I mean, you have to admit that it takes some pretty fancy footwork to be that contrarily confusing. It's not like that makes him a hero, or anything. Far from it. But still. Credit where due.

Can we maybe agree on "exotic mockingbird"? I'm not wedded to it and counter-proposals are more than welcome. But as far as short descriptors go, in a pedestrian sort of a way, it does more or less get the job done, I think.
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Postby Sweejak » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:08 pm

Video

McNamara deceived LBJ on Vietnam

Gareth Porter reveals R.McNamara, who died Monday, misled LBJ on Gulf of Tonkin attacks

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?opti ... mival=3990
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Postby lupercal » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:29 pm

compared2what? wrote:ON EDIT: It's a minor point, but I wanted and forgot to make it:

lupercal wrote:Talk about a seven-course meal of RW nuttery. I suppose I should take it apart and google up refutations of every insinuation but what's the point? Cockburn isn't even claiming it's factual anyway. He's just throwing out "questions." Frankly his whole piece has that Larouche-like stink of far-right disinfo tricked out as leftist outrage. As far as I'm concerned Cockburn is a garden variety mockingbird and I say that as a former admirer.


I don't think it's really fair to Cockburn to call him a garden-variety mockingbird. If nothing else, he's got a certain flair for contrarianism that sets him apart. He's definitely the only marquee-name self-identified leftist writer working today who's not too proud to cite a LaRouchie source while pushing a LaRouchie agenda, who also despises no one as much as he does Chip Berlet unless it's Fletcher Prouty.

I mean, you have to admit that it takes some pretty fancy footwork to be that contrarily confusing. It's not like that makes him a hero, or anything. Far from it. But still. Credit where due.

Can we maybe agree on "exotic mockingbird"? I'm not wedded to it and counter-proposals are more than welcome. But as far as short descriptors go, in a pedestrian sort of a way, it does more or less get the job done, I think.


Sure I'll go for exotic mockingbird. I've learned from cruel experience that mockingbirds aren't all that rare in the press OR the tree, and in fact there's one that drives me up the wall every summer.

Yes, Cockburn is good at what he does, which is rope suckers into buying claptrap appearing in the Nation, which I did for years on his account. But his shtick has gotten obvious since 911. The 2004 election was the tip off, at least for me, but 911 is the deal breaker. It's been seven years and he's still pushing the Bushler official conspiracy? So at this point his fearless anti-Dem muckraking looks more like thinly disguised disinfo. Whether that's all it's ever been I can't say, but it wouldn't surprise me. I'll have to dig up one of his old collections and look through it. I have at least one that I stood in a line to get him to autograph. I wouldn't do it today.
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Postby compared2what? » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:04 am

HMW wrote:Cockburn is 'anti-conspiracy theorist' and denies anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. He's also a 9/11 official story promoter, no surprise, and hosts government disinformationists like Manuel Garcia from Livermore Labs on his website.

That's why Cockburn, Like Noam Chomsky, has to deny the history of National Security Advisory Memorandum 263 which JFK signed on October 11, 1963 to begin the end of US military involvement in Vietnam with a token withdrawal to be followed by the rest after 1964. Kennedy was already besieged by rabid commie-haters and knew he couldn't get away with the full withdrawal until after his re-election. Lt. Col. L. Fletcher Prouty was involved in JFK's efforts to establish this change in policy and document it. NSAM 273 was drafted the day before JFK was killed and then signed a few days later by LBJ thereby putting the show back on the road for 10 more years of slaughterous profiteering.


The evidence that Oswald acted as part of a conspiracy is so overwhelmingly conclusive that to allege otherwise really can't be regarded as anything other than an agenda-driven suppression of a historical reality attested to by evidence of every conceivable kind, ranging from eye-witness accounts to documentary records to (duh) film of the shooting to medical and ballistic forensics, and much, much more.

Therefore, I want to emphatically preface the rest of this post with an unambiguous statement of my 100 percent conviction that Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy among various factions of both governmental and technically extra-governmental domestic players, including but not limited to: the mob, Texas oil oligarchs, and anti-Castro Cubans, who -- wittingly or unwittingly -- were ultimately acting at the behest of what, in the interests of concision, let's call "the CIA," although in reality some participants were formally affiliated with other branches of the clandestine intelligence community.

Okay?

Okay.

That said, even if I totally detach NSAM 263 from the context of every single other piece of paper in the documentary record apart from the one it mentions -- ie, State's cable to Henry Cabot Lodge, outlining WH-approved tactics (ostensibly) intended to pressure Diem into being a little less flagrantly corrupt, brutal and self-advancing and a little more attentive to the interests of the United States -- it's all but impossible for me to read NSAM 263 as signalling Kennedy's decision to reverse or even alter the foreign policy agenda he had consistently pursued wrt Vietnam from the time he took office to the day of his death.

Furthermore, when I read it in its real context, which is a Taylor-McNamara memo most of which Kennedy approved in a meeting on Oct. 5, as reflected first by the incorporation of virtually all of its suggestions in the above-mentioned cable from the DOS to Lodge, which was sent later that day and begins by stating that the instructions it contains "have the President's personal approval," then again, six days later by -- of all things -- NSAM 263, I don't just find that reading all but impossible. I simply find it impossible, period.

Because the 1,000 troop draw-down appears to me, manifestly, to be nothing more and nothing less than the adoption of the highlighted part of the "Recommendations" section of that memo, as excerpted below:

We recommend that:
1. General Harkins review with Diem the military changes necessary to complete the military campaign in the Northern and Central areas (I, II, and III Corps) by the end of 1964, and in the Delta (IV Corps) by the end of 1965. This review would consider the need for such changes as:

a. A further shift of military emphasis and strength to the Delta (IV Corps).
b. An increase in the military tempo in all corps areas, so that all combat troops are in the field an average of 20 days out of 30 and static missions are ended.
c. Emphasis on "clear and hold operations" instead of terrain sweeps which have little permanent value.
d. The expansion of personnel in combat units to full authorized strength.
e. The training and arming of hamlet militia to an accelerated rate, especially in the Delta.
f. A consolidation of the strategic hamlet program, especially in the Delta, and action to insure that future strategic hamlets are not built until they can be protected, and until civic action programs can be introduced.

2. A program be established to train Vietnamese so that essential functions now performed by U.S. military personnel can be carried out by Vietnamese by the end of 1965. It should be possible to withdraw the bulk of U.S. personnel by that time.
3. In accordance with the program to train progressively Vietnamese to take over military functions, the Defense Department should announce in the very near future presently prepared plans to withdraw 1000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963. This action should be explained in low key as an initial step in a long-term program to replace U.S. personnel with trained Vietnamese without impairment of the war effort.


First of all, it strikes me as more than a little misleading to describe the goal of that plan as "the end of U.S. Military involvement in Vietnam." And not only because the explicitly stated goal of the entire memo is to formulate and implement a series of tactics capable of making Diem act like a more reputable and efficient partner-in-warfare. Because frankly, I find it way more problematic that there's not even a whisper of a hint of a suggestion in that passage that any of the men writing or reading it want, hope or expect to come anywhere close to bringing about "the end of U.S. Military involvement in Vietnam." On the contrary, it's perfectly clear on a prima facie basis that the one and only aim of recommendations (2) and (3) is to make U.S. military involvement in Vietnam more rather than less sustainable in the long term by making it more politically tenable in the short-term.

And even if it weren't, there's no way that the rest of the memo leaves any room at all for any doubt that the Kennedy administration's strategic goal in Vietnam at the time of its writing was, shockingly, to gain political and economic control of the territory by waging war against the Viet Cong through the VNR until the former was defeated and the latter was too heavily in the U.S.'s debt to be a meaningfully independent sovereign nation. (For example, scroll down to Section I, Part B, (6)(a) through (6)(d).. Or, if you want something directly relevant to NSAM 263, try Section VII, Part C, (1) through (3), which I'd say go a pretty long way toward explaining where those token 1,000 troops are gonna be coming from.)

Furthermore, in light of how much of October 1963 Kennedy and his aides and advisors spent discussing whether and how to support a military coup against Diem without appearing to have done so, in conjunction with the following bolded excerpt from NSAM 263's previously mentioned and much more detailed twin, DOS cable 534...

C. Congress, Press, and Public:

21. No public statement will be issued here for the present.
22. At President's next press conference, he expects to repeat his basic statement that what furthers the war effort we support, and what interferes with the war effort we oppose. If questioned on actions US may take, he expects to say only that US programs are being reviewed to insure consistency with this policy.


....I'd say it's at least debatable whether "the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963" referred to by NSAM 263 was even something Kennedy ever seriously intended to see carried out, as opposed to something he approved in order to send a plausibly deniable go-for-it message to the coup-plotting Vietnamese Generals.

Because for one thing, they did in fact understand it to be exactly that, consequent to which they went for it with such dispatch that the entire issue of pressuring Diem into doing anything was totally obsolete within three weeks of NSAM 263's date of issue. By then, as I'm sure you know, he was much too dead to be very responsive to U.S. pressure tactics, no matter how numerous and sincerely intended to succeed they would have appeared to be on paper.**

And finally, wrt the second-term and much larger force draw-down that Kennedy definitely didn't live to implement and which I've already quoted Taylor-McNamara as recommending:

That doesn't represent any kind of departure at all from the Kennedy administration's then-extant plans for tying things up and getting gone from South East Asia as they stood prior to NSAM 263. Let alone a sudden and unprecedented departure. McNamara had already proposed, Kennedy had already approved, and the JCS had already been asked to produce operational plans premised on a three-year period Vietnamization followed by the withdrawal of all but 1600 US personnel in November 1962. Which was eleven months before NSAM 263 -- which was signed by McGeorge Bundy and not by Kennedy, incidentally -- tersely noted the President's approval of a 1,000-man cosmetic reduction in total manpower deployed in-country.

In short, I don't understand why you regard NSAM 263 as indicative of a sea change in Kennedy's strategic approach to the war. As a matter of public record, he had already been briefed on and approved one McNamara-devised tactical plan that called for spending a few years on Vietnamization, culminating in the withdrawal of all but a small number of U.S. troops from the field almost a full year before October 5, 1963. At which point he was briefed on and approved a newly-oriented-to-accommodate-facts-on-the-ground Taylor/McNamara-devised overhaul of what was, fundamentally, the exact same plan. As it happened, one part of that plan entailed an insignificant troop reduction, which was memorialized in writing six days later in the form of NSAM 263.

ON EDIT: THIS WHOLE FLIGHT OF FANCY IS BASED IN MY MISTAKEN ASSUMPTION THAT NSAM 273 DID ACTUALLY TAKE A DIFFERENT POLICY STANCE THAN NSAM 263. IT DOESN'T. THEREFORE....It does strike me as totally plausible that at some point following Diem's assassination, Kennedy may indeed have recognized that the McNamara-devised blueprint on which his long-held policy was based was just a rose-colored pile of untenable bullshit that no amount of tactical reorientation was ever going to make any more viable. And if he was unwilling to go the route LBJ did with NSAM 273, that might indeed have been a factor, perhaps even a key factor, wrt the timing of his assassination....THIS PARAGRAPH IS JUST NONSENSICAL CRAP. PLEASE IGNORE IT, AND READ MY SECOND POST FOLLOWING UP ON THIS ONE INSTEAD. THANKS. -- C2W

But that's purely speculative. And even if it were true, there couldn't possibly be any indication of it for conspiracy denialists stubbornly to ignore in the present that'd be dated any earlier than almost three weeks after October 11, 1963. At the very earliest.

So what is it about that specific document that strikes you as such persuasive evidence of a conspiracy that Chomsky and Cockburn have to deny its existence in order to make the fiction that Oswald acted alone believable?

Because for the reasons stated above, I genuinely can't see how it signifies a turning point one way or the other.

** Which is not to say that I think Kennedy had any advance indication that the coup was going to include killing Diem. Because there's no evidence at all that he did. I just mean that since by October 11, 1963, Kennedy was well aware that a coup was being planned and that it might succeed, you (a) can't totally dismiss the possibility that NSAM 263 and the instructions to Lodge in DOS cable 534 were at least partly designed to provide cover for the coup itself and/or for the administration's support of it; or (b) take it for granted that Kennedy wasn't acting on the assumption that Diem would be out of power and in exile before the troop-withdrawal pressure tactic he approved in NSAM 263 had become a reality. But that doesn't even really matter very much. Because with or without the coup, it still wouldn't have been a sign of any kind of shift in policy for him to have approved that particular withdrawal of those particular 1000 troops.
Last edited by compared2what? on Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby pepsified thinker » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:18 pm

c2w thanks for that--I like the idea of Kennedy having been headed towards a pull out from Vietnam, but I've never been satisfied with the assertions/arguments that such was the case--they just left me somehow not fully assured/convinced. I'm glad to have the point raised in the manner you just did--and look forward to others' response.
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Postby compared2what? » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:11 pm

pepsified thinker wrote:c2w thanks for that--I like the idea of Kennedy having been headed towards a pull out from Vietnam, but I've never been satisfied with the assertions/arguments that such was the case--they just left me somehow not fully assured/convinced. I'm glad to have the point raised in the manner you just did--and look forward to others' response.


Thank you. I made at least ONE GINORMOUS ERROR, for which I have no good excuse at all: I didn't re-read NSAM 273 before writing, and therefore had an entirely different Johnson doc in mind. Had I thought about it for a moment, I would have realized that what I was thinking of was obviously connected to events much, much further into his term.

I'm going to go put a note in my prior post, after which I'll elaborate further in a separate one.
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:01 pm

The 'anti-conspiracy gatekeepers' try to tell us that JFK was just another cold warrior with no basic differences with the CIA and Pentagon so, gosh, why would they want to hurt their buddy?

I wrote that NSAM 263 provides a rationale, not proof, for a widespread high-level assassination plan. It made the shift to 'Vietnamization' discussed in 1962 a reality.

It was even trumpeted in 'Stars and Stripes.'
Not just closed door stuff anymore.

The contrast between JFK's actions taken to minimize US personnel in Vietnam and LBJ's expanded war can't be ignored.
And the back up POTUS, LBJ, was getting his Bobby Baker chestnuts roasted in a Congressional hearing just when sniper fire saved his job and the big promotion. Just in time for the planners of that day to put their war back on track.

Lt. Col. L. Fletcher Prouty said that he helped write
NSAM 263 on Kennedy's orders and the coming change in US engagement in Vietnam was very real.


Prouty interview-[/i]

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/USO/chp1_p3.html

>snip<

JFK Prepares To Get Out Of Vietnam:
The Taylor/McNamara Trip Report of October 1963
and NSAM 263


By the summer of '63 Kennedy had made up his mind to get out of Vietnam. By that time I had been transferred from the Office of Secretary of Defense to the Office of Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Ratcliffe: In 1963?

Prouty: In '62. But I'm talking about the summer of '63: by that time I had been transferred. I was transferred in '62. Mr. McNamara had approved the plan submitted by General Erskine to create the Defense Intelligence Agency. With that approval General Erskine (who had been on service for an awful long time) retired, and his office (the Office of Special Operations, where I had worked and where Lansdale was working) was abolished. Mr. McNamara suggested that the office that I was in (the Military Support of Clandestine Operations) be transferred to the JCS. We established the office there; it was the Office of Special Operations. I created it. I was its chief for the first two years, until I retired in 1964.

During that period we watched this rise of increasingly effective military in Vietnam. At the same time, the Kennedy administration could find no real reason to continue a war there. They gradually began to rationalize that: `Look, this is a Vietnamese war, it's not an American war. We should provide support to them but let them fight their war.'

This rationale began to snowball into the latter part of 1963. At that time Kennedy did something that I think was quite typical of him and quite clever. General Krulak was my boss in the JCS, he was an experienced combat-trained Marine, and he was probably the closest military officer to the Kennedy family -- very close to Bobby Kennedy and quite close to Jack Kennedy. He went to meetings in the White House frequently. I know because I worked right in his office.

Kennedy sent General Krulak to Vietnam. This was more or less a nominal visit. Krulak knew an awful lot about Vietnam; he didn't need to go. But it brought him up to date; it let him hear some briefings that were current, let him talk with some people, so that when he came back he could write, `I've just come from Vietnam; here's the story.'

Ratcliffe: And when was that?

Prouty: That was in September of 1963. By that time General Krulak knew what Kennedy's plans were. So that when he came back he sat down and he started writing what became NSAM 263 -- otherwise known as the Taylor/McNamara Trip Report of October '63.[1] They both are the same, although some people don't realize that the numbered memoranda simply covers the Taylor/McNamara Report.

But they're the same document, and they bear the same authority coming from the White House as a National Security Action Memorandum. So Krulak was engaged writing this major report -- and I was one of his principal writers -- I wrote probably as much or more of that document than anybody else did. It was a very large report, profusely illustrated; we had pictures in it, we had maps in it. When it was all done, they bound it in a big leather cover that said "President John F. Kennedy from Robert McNamara and Maxwell Taylor."

We flew the finished report to Hawaii in a jet, gave it to Taylor and McNamara so they could read it on their way back, so that when they gave it to Kennedy they at least would know it existed. But what the report was really, was Kennedy's own views on the Vietnam War -- not anybody else's. All Krulak did (and all I did) was write what Kennedy had told us to do.

The agent in that was Bobby Kennedy. Krulak would see Bobby Kennedy, I guess, every day. We even slept in the office for awhile. We were working right around the clock. We had something like 16 secretaries, four every four hours, just going right around the clock like that, getting this huge report prepared. (It was before the days of word processors and things like that.)

But when Taylor and McNamara came back and landed in a helicopter on the lawn of the White House, they gave the President this big report. The President knew exactly what was in the report because it was what he had dictated to Krulak. What Krulak had written and given to them had made the circle; it was back in Kennedy's hands and now he could declare it to be national policy.

About two days later, on October 11th, 1963, he signed this NSAM 263 which, among other things, said that by Christmas time a thousand military men are coming out of Vietnam, coming home. And by the end of 1965 all U.S. personnel will be out of Vietnam.

That was very important. For instance, in the Pacific at that time we had a military publication called the Stars and Stripes. It was the old newspaper from WWII. The headline of the Stars and Stripes that day (great big headline) said: "One thousand troops being withdrawn from Vietnam by Christmas and the remainder by '65." Nobody missed the point. It was right there in big letters. And this is what Kennedy planned.

Privately, Kennedy had told some of his confidants that "As soon as I am reelected, I am going to get people out of Vietnam and we're going to Vietnamize that war; we'll just provide support for them;" and "I'm going to break the CIA into a thousand pieces." Those are quotables you can get from Senator Mansfield and from other intimates of the President (and that those of us working on those things day-by-day knew were exactly the sentiments of John F. Kennedy).


The Murders of President Diem and Kennedy

About three weeks after JFK had published NSAM 263 as an official document from the White House, President Diem was killed in Vietnam. General Krulak knew about the plans for the removal of the Diems from Vietnam. It did not include killing anybody. The wife of Diem's brother, Nhu, had left Vietnam ahead of time. She was in the United States on a speaking tour -- and a very prominent speaking tour because she was called the Dragon Lady. Everybody knew where she was. Nhu was supposed to leave and meet her -- I think in Rome, because the other brother (who was a cardinal in the Catholic Church) had gone to Rome also. And that left Nhu and Ngo Dinh Diem to leave: they were going to a Parliamentary Union meeting in Belgrade and Diem had been asked to be a speaker there.

So his departure from Vietnam was supposed to be the same departure any chief of state would make who was going somewhere else to deliver a lecture and make a visit. So a special airplane (a commercial airplane, not military) was being flown into Saigon that day to take him to Belgrade, with his brother. (The other brother had already left and Nhu's wife had already left.)

For reasons that none of us have ever known, the two Diem brothers went to the airport, went up the stairs to the airplane and got in it, and came out again. And, to the surprise of the few people there that knew they were leaving (among them the people we had spotting this affair, that Krulak had), saw them get back into their car and go speeding back into town (where they went into the palace, the presidential palace), and suddenly realized they were alone.

They were in some sense incompetent -- they didn't understand political government. Their people had been so repressive that they knew as soon as the Diems left they would be killed. The people would attack them. They hated that guard that was around Diem. So they had all run. And when the Diems went back into the palace it was empty. There was nobody there.

They immediately realized what was going on, and they went into a tunnel (that had been dug for this purpose beforehand) that went under the river, over to the suburb of Saigon called Cholon. Unfortunately, at the other end of the tunnel, there were some soldiers there who had been ordered to be there, and they put them in a van and they killed them in the van. And that's how they were killed. It had nothing to do with the plan that had been laid on for them.

I was in my office that afternoon and General Krulak came in and he was absolutely blanched. He said, "The Diems have been killed." He said, "I can't believe that they wouldn't follow the program we had lined up for them." He said, "But we just had a call saying that they went in the plane, came out of the plane, and went back to the city. Later it was discovered that they'd been killed."

To the people that had carefully planned their movement out of the country -- and of course it was going to be a coup d'état -- maybe Diem felt that it was and didn't want to leave, or something. But he was going to be out. He was never going to come back. And maybe he sensed that, or maybe somebody had tipped him off. We can't account for it. In fact, when Krulak turned to me and talked to me about it, he said, "We'll never know what went through their heads. They should've been smarter. They should've just kept going and they'd have been out and they wouldn't have . . . "

>snip<
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Postby compared2what? » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:09 am

Okay. I apologize for the error mentioned above. It proceeded from my not, for some reason, knowing better than to assume that any document that's referred to in the same paragraph as the words "Lt. Col. L. Fletcher Prouty was involved" is in any way even remotely indicative of what the reference to it suggests it is. In this case, I assumed that NSAM 273 was, indeed, a significant declaration of more big ugly war than NSAM 263.

It really isn't. Also I could have saved myself a lot of time addressing Hugh in terms that must have seemed nonsensical to him if I'd just gone straight to Prouty's take on NSAM 263, where I could have learned from the following...

Prouty: That was in September of 1963. By that time General Krulak knew what Kennedy's plans were. So that when he came back he sat down and he started writing what became NSAM 263 -- otherwise known as the Taylor/McNamara Trip Report of October '63.[1] They both are the same, although some people don't realize that the numbered memoranda simply covers the Taylor/McNamara Report.

But they're the same document, and they bear the same authority coming from the White House as a National Security Action Memorandum. So Krulak was engaged writing this major report -- and I was one of his principal writers -- I wrote probably as much or more of that document than anybody else did. It was a very large report, profusely illustrated; we had pictures in it, we had maps in it. When it was all done, they bound it in a big leather cover that said "President John F. Kennedy from Robert McNamara and Maxwell Taylor."


....that when Hugh refers to NSAM 263, signed on October 11, 1963 by JFK, he doesn't just mean NSAM 263, signed on October 11, 1963 by McGeorge Bundy, a facsimile of which appears below:

Image

He also means McNamara's multiple-page memorandum to the President, which is....Well. It's a memo from the Secretary of Defense, on his letterhead, dated October 2, 1963, addressed to Kennedy, and not a National Security Action Memorandum that proceeds from the White House and carries its authority.

Although I don't doubt that Prouty is 100 percent correct in saying that it wasn't written by McNamara. And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of it was written in the offices of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, where Prouty worked. However, it is not, as Prouty says, the same document as NSAM 263. It is -- as I was saying in what must have read like gibberish to Hugh -- a document that's closely related to NSAM 263. It was approved by Kennedy in a meeting on October 5, 1963. Here's a nice picture of its opening page:

Image

Moving right along. NSAM 263 is, as you can see, very, very short. And, as I said in my original post, it's basically a formal note to the record, explicitly memorializing the adoption of Section IB, 1 -3 of McNamara-Taylor, which is the part that suggests the token withdrawal of 1000 troops; and less explicitly memorializing the adoption of the rest of McNamara-Taylor, via the reference to DOS cable 534, which instructs Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge to act accordingly. For those keeping count at home, that brings the tally to three (3) closely related documents. And I guess that the reason Prouty might prefer to focus on NSAM 263 rather than either of the other two is that owing to NSAM 263's brevity, the reference to the troop reduction makes it look like a much bigger and more central part of the overall package than it was, or than it appears to be when you read it in context.

And that's really kinda hinky. Because McNamara-Taylor, the full document, really doesn't suggest in any way, shape or form that Kennedy was going to end U.S. Military involvement in Vietnam. And it's not only loopy to claim that it does, it's also loopy even to claim that it's a generally representative reflection of the administration's overall strategic intentions wrt Vietnam at all. It was written with the explicit stated purpose of scaring Diem straight, and most of its recommendations wouldn't even make tactical sense if that wasn't their one and only aim -- eg, "Let's suspend the Commodity Import Program for two to four months, but not tell Diem it's time-limited!" And so forth.

In addition to which, it was written only three weeks before Diem was overthrown in a coup d'etat, possible support for which the White House had been (secretly) discussing since August, although they planned to deny -- and ultimately did deny -- having had anything to do with it when it finally occured. It's therefore entirely possible that the whole of the McNamara-Taylor memo (along with its closely related brethren) is just part of a great big documentary screen, the true purpose of which was to make it appear that far from being involved in any plots to overthrow the man during the weeks leading up to the coup, the White House was instead innocently sending its SecDef on fact-finding missions the point of which was to develop a non-coup-oriented tactical program for continuing to deal with him.

I have no idea whether that's true or not. I'm just saying that it would be loopy to pretend that the October 2, 1963 memo was a monolithic and static representation of U.S. policy, given that Kennedy had been convening meetings the agenda of which -- to coup or not to coup -- was completely fucking unrelated to it. And equally loopy to pretend that NSAM 263 is the same document. It's not.

Here are the relevant links:

NSAM 263

McNamara-Taylor Memo

DOS cable 534

Thirty or so documents and audio excerpts of meetings tracking the White House's attitude to the Diem coup, which ultimately took place on November 1, 1963

Now then.

NSAM 273 was, as Prouty ominously notes, prepared one day before the Kennedy assassination, and signed (again by McGeorge Bundy) four days later, after Johnson approved it, on November 26, 1963. Here's a LINK.

As you can see, this reads somewhat more aggressively than NSAM 263. However, nothing it proposes is anything but a reaffirmation of policies Kennedy had already approved. Not a single one that I can see. You might then ask: Well then, why would Kennedy have asked Bundy to draft it, one suspicious day before his death?

And I'm glad you asked. Because: On November 1, 1963, three weeks after NSAM 263, Diem was killed in a military coup. The new government wasn't very stable, which was a source of much, well-merited concern to the Kennedy administration. Consequently, on November 13, 1963, McNamara announced that there would be a huge conference in Honolulu featuring all the main players (other than the President and VP, obvs) on November 20, 1963. And so there was. It thus strikes me as the soul of reason to assume that the more emphatically committed tone of NSAM 273 was intended to make it clear to one and all that the US was behind the new Vietnamese government in its fight against the dirty VC commies all the way.

I don't know if that's the correct explanation. However, it's certainly both plausible and natural enough that while there might well be many other reasons to suspect Johnson (or whomever) in connection with the JFK assassination, on a stand-alone basis, NSAM 273 isn't one of them.

Kennedy was doing all the things listed in it already. And he had either said himself or approved documents saying most (and maybe all) of what it says in the same or very similar language in one place or another. Including in some parts of DOS cable 534 and McNamara-Taylor. Although not in what most of the world knows as NSAM 263. But as I've already said, I don't understand what reason there is to regard that single document as particularly noteworthy or indicative of some aspect of Kennedy's governance that differed significantly from anything that went before it.
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Postby compared2what? » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:18 am

Sorry, Hugh. I didn't see your post. Yes, I know Prouty says that. There's absolutely nothing other than his word that suggests he did, though. And he doesn't exactly come across as so totally and fully informed on every aspect of the background data that his word alone carries a whole lot of credibility on this particular point.

Furthermore, given that he was working for Krulak, he really ought to have known that the out-by-'65 thing wasn't a new development. Krulak was the guy McNamara asked for the operational plans premised on an out-by-'65 long-term goal back in November of 1962.

So I kind of wonder why it seemed like such a big deal to him when he saw it mentioned again (sorry -- when he mentioned it again) almost a year later.

ON EDIT: I guess I should note, in so many words, something I take for granted as apparent to everyone, but that probably isn't, if you haven't just been reading all the memos and what-have-you's.

Putting aside for just one moment the possibility that the unsupported word of Fletcher Prouty is sufficiently credible evidence on which to conclude that unbeknownst to everyone else involved, he and Kennedy were the true authors of McNamara-Taylor:

As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason at all to think that either the out-by-'65 suggestion made by McNamara in '62 in his request to Krulak or the out-by'65 suggestion made en passant by McNamara and his writing elves in McNamara-Taylor were -- what's the word I'm looking for? Oh, right -- reality-based.

The man was a stone-cold liar. And even if he hadn't been, the notable disparity between how well he said things were going in meetings and how well he said things were going when writing memos destined to one day form a part of the official record is enough to cast doubt on the viability of wrapping the mission up that fast. It was a fucking mess from day one, pretty much. It's difficult to know what, if any, long-term plans Kennedy was considering, based on the available material, anyway. From May '63 up until a month or two before his death, he was primarily focused first on figuring out just how unwinnable the war would be with Diem in charge and then (after a number of meetings in which the almost uniform consensus was: Totally unwinnable) on figuring out what to do about that -- ie, coup or pressure-plan.

Between November 1, when the coup took place, and his assassination, he was mostly just trying to make sure the new government didn't totally collapse, which there was clearly a real possibility, despite the many cheery, glass-half-full reports he was getting from State and DOD officials in the field, whose asses were, after all, on the line, given that it was a complete fucking mess of their own making.

Whether or not he either already knew or would soon have known that McNamara was simply incapable of admitting (or possibly even realizing) that he'd ever made a bad decision about the conduct of the war is an open question, imo. I'd like to think that he would have. And there are some small signs that he might have. For example, RFK was not anybody's fool, including McNamara's. Nor was he too shy to say when he disagreed with a colleague. So it's totally possible that JFK might have re-tooled his strategy had he made it to a second term. However, during the part of the one he did make it through, if he was privately entertaining thoughts on Vietnam that were any more radical than restrained and comparatively humanitarian but nevertheless fundamentally conventional cold-war policies of containment, there just isn't any very striking sign of it.

Cuba and the Soviet Union, on the other hand, were each entirely different kettles of fish. Especially Cuba. He was definitely not nearly cold-war enough to cut the mustard with the old-school generals over at the Pentagon or with the See-Eye-Ay on that score. And, I'm sure, on a number of others, too. Just not on the one being debated here. There's no case to be made for that. And personally, I have no idea why Prouty insists that there is. It just makes him look even loopier than he already looks when he does stuff like cite novels without mentioning that they are novels rather than works of historical fact. For example.
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Postby Sweejak » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:29 pm

I almost hate to break into this great series of entries, but ...

Porter: McNamara's Vietnam War mindset - seeking dominance - continues today, in both parties

McNamara's mindset Pt2

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?opti ... mival=3996
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