The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby 23 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:33 pm

Our problem is... we act as if we are the center of our universe.

Our problem is... anthropocentrism.

And we're right on course towards discovering... through a very rude awakening... that we're not.
"Once you label me, you negate me." — Soren Kierkegaard
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby Nordic » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:20 am

23 wrote:Our problem is... we act as if we are the center of our universe.

Our problem is... anthropocentrism.

And we're right on course towards discovering... through a very rude awakening... that we're not.



Well, actually each of us is indeed the center of his or her own universe.

I think every conscious being is.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:39 am

Okay, smarties, so show us what YOU think is at the extreme micro end of the scale.

I say it looks like this:

Image
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby 23 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:51 am

*straightens his dunce cap*

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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby Nordic » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:25 am

JackRiddler wrote:Okay, smarties, so show us what YOU think is at the extreme micro end of the scale.


The same thing that's at the macro end of the scale.

Infinity.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:28 am

JackRiddler wrote:Okay, smarties, so show us what YOU think is at the extreme micro end of the scale.


Thats where the door is isn't it?
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby Ben D » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:05 am

If anyone has a spiritual eye, let them go forth from their body to behold the Beautiful, let them fly up and float above not seeking to see shape or colour but rather that from which these things are created, that which is quiet and calm, stable and changeless, that which is ONE, that which issues forth from itself and is contained in itself, that which is like nothing else but ITSELF.
....A Hermetic Saying
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby 82_28 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:28 am

Nordic wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:Okay, smarties, so show us what YOU think is at the extreme micro end of the scale.


The same thing that's at the macro end of the scale.

Infinity.


Well, here's my worthless anecdote.

Say you want to see the state of an atom or even see an atom as one would hold up an apple in the gleaming sun. Your gonna need a microscope of sorts. But the very nature of the microscope, even an "atomic microscope" necessitates that the lens in which our eyes can behold such a venture be made out of atoms as well. Thus, from our macro perspective, no atom at all can ever be seen, lest we want to inspect the atoms that comprise the microscope itself first. Which of course, requires a microscope. Infinite regress. . .

http://occulture64.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... e-mirrors/
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby 82_28 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:40 am

Which makes me think of the fact that none of us, NOBODY will ever, ever, see their own face. I always thought it to be a pretty spooky idea. Because we think we do. But we can never gaze into our own eyes.

Thru the mirror. It's a mirror image and not you.

Video and photography: even more so distant from gazing into your own eyes.

Gazing into one's own eyes is more impossible than attaining the speed of light.

And what are eyes? The sole organ, sensor on the body that is expressly given the duty of sensing light and making sense of it all according to our brains that demand explanation and synthesis with all the other sense organs and functions.

Thanks for the ancient computer we don't understand, God. . .
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby Ben D » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:59 am

True, reminds me of a mystical saying,..."The revelation of God can only be made by God to God through the medium of God".

...a house divided can not stand,...don't eat of the fruit of tree of duality!
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

** or Nirvana, Allah, Brahman, Tao, etc...
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby operator kos » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:31 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:There are earthworms 7 meters long?


I noticed that too. Wikipedia says the biggest earthworms are only 3 meters long. Hm...

Anyways, thanks to the OP for a very interesting link. My biggest "whoa" moment was that we can't even see the edge of the universe (if there is one) because light from there hasn't had time to reach us. But... that just made me think of something else... If the universe started from nothing and expanded outwards in a Big Bang, doesn't that mean it would be expanding outwards *faster* than the speed of light?
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:03 am

Yeah, O.K., you just got at a big problem with Big Bang theory. The universe seems to be bigger than could have been achieved in the time the theory allots since the BB. This is why they've more recently come up with the [strikethrough]Ptolemaic epicycle [/strikethrough], erm, I mean device of hyperinflation, a period that supposedly happened during the first 300,000 "years" of the universe (whatever years meant back then) when everything expanded at a faster-than-light clip. Other than that there's no direct empirical evidence of this event, it explains the size problem. Anyway, on the "Scale of the Universe" graphic everything between the neutrino and the visible universal horizon has been observed empirically. The extremes are necessarily theoretical.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby compared2what? » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:55 am

MacCruiskeen wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:And why can't I subdivide a Planck length? Who says it makes "no physical sense"? I mean if Zeno's suction cup dart is one planck length from my forehead doesn't it have to travel half a planck length before it reaches it's target?


And then it would have to travel half that remaining distance (i.e., 1/4 Planck length) and then half that (i.e., 1/8 Planck length), and so on ad infinitum. In other words, neither Zeno's nor anyone else's arrow can ever reach your forehead. Which is reassuring, but dangerously so, because of course arrows have often, in fact, reached foreheads.

Not that I understand this myself! It is all highly weird.

The Modernity of Zeno’s Paradoxes


The form in which that paradox was first introduced to me was (roughly speaking): "In order for an arrow to reach its target, it has to travel half the distance, then half the remaining distance, then half the remaining distance (and so on). Therefore it never gets there. Why don't you go think about that for a while?" I was bored, and had been pestering and interrupting my mother, who was in the middle of doing something, I don't remember what. I was probably about...ten or eleven, maybe? Within a year or so of that. She meant well.

And it really didn't strike me as kind of an odd way to accommodate a child's natural need for something of an attention-and-time-occupying nature, either, at the time. That was just business as usual in my world. As I understood the general set-up, it was just the natural order of things for me often to be asked to clear some random intellectual hurdle for no very apparent reason, and it was then my job to do so. And that was just that. Besides which, in this particular case, I actually was interested by the question. Because, you know, it's interesting.

So I went away and though about it. After a while, it occurred to me that the reason the arrow did hit the target in reality was that it would naturally do so while traveling half the remaining distance of half the remaining distance of half the remaining distance (and so on) between the point from which it had been shot and a tree (or whatever) standing two feet (or whatever) behind the target.

So. I was just totally beside myself with excitement about having come up with that solution. It had been presented to me as an ancient Greek paradox, and I sort of vaguely pictured having my picture on the front page of the newspaper and...I don't know, getting to ride on a float covered with roses or something like that. For being the ordinary little wise child who had solved the riddle that had been frustrating the minds of untold numbers of profoundly learned (yet kinda jolly and probably German-accented men with studies full of leather bound volumes and possibly one or two pipe racks) of enormous erudition for lo these many millennia.

I felt that I had a game show appearances in my future, basically. And I was just thrilled to death about that. For as long as it took me to race to my mother's side and tell her what the what was. Whereupon she said something to the effect of: "Why, yes, that was the solution proposed by so-and-so, some monk" -- or saint or philosopher or whatever, I don't really recall -- "in the ninth century, AD, who stated it as So-and-So's Proposition, to wit: Infinity is unattainable. However, at least theoretically, anything short of infinity can be attained."

I decided then and there that I was never ever again even going to bother wasting one single extra second's thought on any serious academic matter beyond whatever bare minimum might be required of me by circumstance while I was still in school for the rest of my life. A resolution to which I've remained true from that day to this. I wasn't so much disappointed as I was mad pissed off. Because I just couldn't believe that the life of the mind had gone and seduced, betrayed and generally fucked around with my heart like that. I regarded it as an outrage greater than any innocent and well-intentioned person could or should be expected to tolerate, and felt deep silent umbrage.

And I'm really not so sure I wasn't justified in that feeling, to be honest. I mean, there was probably some emotional stuff that I wasn't really yet in conscious touch with mixed in there, too, I readily concede. But deep thought actually is a very demanding pastime, and oftener a punishing one than it is rewarding, I was at least right about that much.

Oh. And also. I've never thought about it again or looked into the matter further. So I could definitely be wrong. But that's the solution to Zeno's Paradox, as I understand it. FWIW. Oo, it makes me so mad even just thinking about it, still. I mean, the nerve of that philosophy stuff. It's not the boss of me.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby Ben D » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:52 am

Thank you for that compared2what?, brilliant!
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

** or Nirvana, Allah, Brahman, Tao, etc...
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby tazmic » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:22 am

Jack, if you have a problem with the Big Bang, you may be surprised to see there isn't such a strong consensus on the matter:

"Dr Scott systematically unravels the myths of "Big Bang" cosmology, and he does so without resorting to black holes, dark matter, dark energy, neutron stars, magnetic "reconnection," or any other fictions needed to prop up a failed theory.

Not surprisingly, Dr. Scott’s book has already begun to receive enthusiastic reviews from plasma scientists and experts in electrodynamics. "

http://www.thunderbolts.info/home.htm
"It ever was, and is, and shall be, ever-living fire, in measures being kindled and in measures going out." - Heraclitus

"There aren't enough small numbers to meet the many demands made of them." - Strong Law of Small Numbers
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