It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby slomo » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:31 pm

barracuda wrote:It's also perfectly reasonable to accept a purely physical basis for consiousness. As Francis Crick says, "You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." His thesis is that consiousness is basically an effect of the processes involving retention of short-term memory via visual stimulus of the brain, nothing more.

Understandably, this position is far more difficult to reconcile with the concept of the self than is a purely supernatural one. But is it really any less fantastic a proposition, that our lives in all their complexity and depth are the mere resonances of electro-chemistry? In many ways the idea adds a sense of urgency to our actions, which is diminished by an afterlife. However, the implication is that the soul is based upon the sum of it's amazing parts, and when these fall apart, there is nothing but dust.


There are several problems with this viewpoint, as common as it seems to be. The first is that it violates (what to me is) the simplest interpretation of quantum reality: an Observer (i.e. Consciousness) interacts with the physical to effect the physical phenomenon being observed. Einstein and colleagues were so committed to physical determinism (an interesting revelation of hidden ideology, if you read some his words from a different cultural perspective than is usual) that he proposed the "hidden variables" interpretation of quantum mechanics, deferring quantum phenomena to a finer level and making quantum mechanics seem to be a version of statistical mechanics. However, the last few decades of experimental evidence, in combination with Bell's Theorem, have negated the hidden variables interpretation, at least any version of it that would seem like classical Newtonian physics. Another interpretation, the so-called "many worlds" interpretation, ultimately implies a very high order of infinity (no, not all infinities are equal) to the structure of ultimate reality, thus negating the objective of denying anything supernatural. We are left with the most obvious interpretation, but the one that is most objectionable to the modern Western mind: the physical world is non-deterministic, and heavily influenced by something that is intricately linked with our own human consciousness, but is "non-physical" in the sense of classical Newtoninan physics. Of course, electricity was once thought to be "supernatural", but it is now accepted that the ordinary structure of our physical world has its properties solely on the basis of electric charge (i.e. the laws of chemistry flow from the properties of electrons in the electric field of the nucleus). So what is considered to be "physical" is ultimately culturally determined.

It is true that behaviors that are commonly associated with consciousness can be thought to emerge from the complex arrangements of neurons. That is hard to deny. In fact, it is possible to set up in silico experiments where cellular automata behave in ways that seem to imply conscious will. But that just implies that "consciousness" is a phase of physical matter, much like solid, liquid, gas or plasma. It is a fundamental property. Interestingly enough, the thermodynamic hallmarks of brain activity ("self-organized criticality") are present in other complex systems such as, for example, ecosystems. So ecosytems are potentially conscious as well. The problem here is not the physicality of consciousness, which would be difficult to deny, but the ubiquity of it (as Wombat has remarked above), as well as the interconnectedness of it. But, in my experience, many if not most proponents of the "emergent consciousness" position usually want to define consciousness as something preciously human, or else something completely without value, not something that is both remarkable and fundamental. It becomes a tool in an ideological attempt to explain away questions of uniqueness and value that are inconvenient to commercialism, global capitalism, and the march of progress. (Of course I show my own ideological hand in this last statement.) Emergent consciousness notwithstanding, it still difficult to explain qualia, the experience of consciousness from the inside as opposed to its apparent thermodynamic signature on the outside.

Of course, none of this tells us anything one way or the other about whether our human consciousness is preserved after the physical arrangement of our neurons perishes.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby barracuda » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:37 pm

But it does tell us a few things. If you accept the "many worlds" interpretation, there are worlds in which qualia are rigidly defined as shared understandings and worlds in which they are not. We seem to be at a intermediate state in which it is convenient to accept that no one knows what "redness" is, while eveyone seems to agree that the word "red" has a common meaning. The issue of qualia is a philosophical gordian knot, whereas the issue of consciousness is a reduceable scientific problem. Likewise, many worlds insists the existence of endless universes where there is no afterlife, and endless universes where there is. So we're back where we started, clutching a lottery ticket.

Wombaticus Rex wrote:I say "Yes" for a simple and personal reason: consciousness is so ubiquitous I think it's reasonable to assume it's persistent.


Not to be overly solipsistic, but for all I know the world as seen through Justin Boland's eye sockets is the only one there is, the far-reaching, ever present, and seemingly sprinkled-about state of which has more to do with my perceptual cat-bird seat than any undefinable reality. As I die, so goes the gross indeterminacy - all the possibilities collapse, and one way or another there is an afterlife or isn't. Obviously the phase state of a determinate afterlife must have been realised a long time ago, presumably when the life span of the first creature capable of observation came to an end. Some much-blessed planaria or something.

JackRiddler wrote:A universal consciousness would still exist in a medium, even if it seemed "immaterial" to us, even if we will never come upon a way to see or conceive of it (because it's all one string vibrating through 11 dimensions, or whatever).


But God, by definition (and the soul by inference and proximity to His Wonder), exists outside of any schema at all, the κινούμενον κινεῖ. That is what I assume we are referring to when we refer to a soul.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby slomo » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:03 pm

Likewise, many worlds insists the existence of endless universes where there is no afterlife, and endless universes where there is.

This is an interesting problem that emerges if you try to do metaphysics with the "many-worlds" interpretation, but only if you think the conception of afterlife is intimately linked with physical reality. It seems to contradict itself, because it creates interference between those tangential worlds that do not contain afterlives and those that do, but want to place them in one of the worlds that does not. Then it all becomes a big mess. From a scientific perspective, where simpler and more elegant models (that explain all the data) are better, it's easier just to start with Consciousness and assume that physical reality is just an emanation of Consciousness.

In fact, that's what all human cultures other than our own have assumed (in one way or another), especially those that were primitive. In our hubris, we believe we are the only ones who got it right. In the meantime, we are destroying ourselves psychically, if not physically. All those primitive cultures that we enjoy looking down on somehow managed to survive the millenia, when it is an open question whether we will make it to the next century.

So, if you want to talk about afterlife in a positivist-materialist sense that denies any metaphysical woo, then the only such afterlife that is possible is the transmission of genetic and cultural material down through the ages; our metaphysical philosophy seems to deny the possibility even of that!
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby justdrew » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:12 pm

... or ... is there dream after awakening?

Information theory is probably a better guide to afterdream theorizing than quantum mechanics, which I see primarily as being a bookkeeping system for making useful predictions about interactions we don't otherwise have sufficient information about to mechanically model. (map not territory) (but it does seem to hint at some interesting territory)

there's a biologically known reason why it's generally difficult for us to remember most dreams, but I think it's reasonable to assume the "Buddhic self" (using that term/concept as it's fine and been introduced already) has no such limitation. So everything the dreamer became in the dream is remembered and influences the unfolding of the dreamer. remembered perfectly, and the dreamer may dream from that memory again, carrying on the narrative, adding to the memory, growing it further. The nature of the dreamer's memories are not different from the nature of the dreamer itself. and even dreams may dream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuber
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby slomo » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:15 pm

barracuda wrote:Not to be overly solipsistic, but for all I know the world as seen through Justin Boland's eye sockets is the only one there is, the far-reaching, ever present, and seemingly sprinkled-about state of which has more to do with my perceptual cat-bird seat than any undefinable reality.

The illusion of separateness, and the inaccessibility of anothers' qualia, is difficult to overcome, but not humanly impossible. That much I know. The question of meaningful persistence is another matter.

barracuda wrote:But God, by definition (and the soul by inference and proximity to His Wonder), exists outside of any schema at all, the κινούμενον κινεῖ. That is what I assume we are referring to when we refer to a soul.

I hate the unmoved-mover bullshit. It is the kernel of Newtonian determinism, which is a sham, and demonstrably false.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby slomo » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:18 pm

justdrew wrote:... or ... is there dream after awakening?

Information theory is probably a better guide to afterdream theorizing than quantum mechanics, which I see primarily as being a bookkeeping system for making useful predictions about interactions we don't otherwise have sufficient information about to mechanically model. (map not territory) (but it does seem to hint at some interesting territory)

Quantum mechanics is no such bookkeeping mechanism. That is the "hidden variables" interpretation, which experimental evidence contradicts. See Bell's Theorem. In fact, the ultimate stochastic nature of physical reality is consistent with an information-theoretic interpretation of physical reality. Hidden variables, not so much.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby barracuda » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:39 pm

slomo wrote:I hate the unmoved-mover bullshit. It is the kernel of Newtonian determinism, which is a sham, and demonstrably false.


I'm pretty much with ya there, I just couldn't resist all those cool looking greek letters. And the OP does read like the classic frustrated trip to an Abrahamic paradise, anyway (OBE, go to the light, voice says, "it's not your time", etc.)
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:13 pm

Yeah, I don't buy first-cause as anything but an attempt to put another, superior box around the box. It's still going to be a box, even if conceived as infinite. Besides, important as he was as a first mover all his own, you're citing a fellow notorious for being wrong about almost everything except his frequent willingness to observe rather than to posit.

As for the OP, all of these reports from near-death experiences lack the element that would convince me. None of them actually died.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby slomo » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:16 pm

JackRiddler wrote:As for the OP, all of these reports from near-death experiences lack the element that would convince me. None of them actually died.


:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Yeah, that is a problem. But what about the ones who have!? Some of them are pretty good at making brief encore appearances. I recall the experience of a friend of mine. She went to see a psychic, accompanied by her friend but without her husband (a college buddy of mine). The parting words of her dead father, speaking through the medium: "tell that husband of yours to get a haircut, he looks like a girl!". Totally in character, and (sans editorial) an accurate description of her husband's hairstyle. One can never be sure that this is really the soul of a dearly departed, and not some spirit reaching into your memory bank to play a practical joke on you, but either way it suggests a more fluid concept of consciousness than we modern Westerns hold.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:19 pm

The parting words of her father, speaking through the medium: "tell that husband of yours to get a haircut, he looks like a girl!".


It is sobering to consider that the afterlife might be a place where you care deeply about your daughter's husband's hairstyle.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby slomo » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:25 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
The parting words of her father, speaking through the medium: "tell that husband of yours to get a haircut, he looks like a girl!".


It is sobering to consider that the afterlife might be a place where you care deeply about your daughter's husband's hairstyle.


That was my friend's reaction. She had not had a particularly easy relationship with her father, and was somewhat disappointed that he hadn't learned much on the journey across.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby justdrew » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:34 pm

slomo wrote:
justdrew wrote:... or ... is there dream after awakening?

Information theory is probably a better guide to afterdream theorizing than quantum mechanics, which I see primarily as being a bookkeeping system for making useful predictions about interactions we don't otherwise have sufficient information about to mechanically model. (map not territory) (but it does seem to hint at some interesting territory)

Quantum mechanics is no such bookkeeping mechanism. That is the "hidden variables" interpretation, which experimental evidence contradicts. See Bell's Theorem. In fact, the ultimate stochastic nature of physical reality is consistent with an information-theoretic interpretation of physical reality. Hidden variables, not so much.


well, I'm talking (or at least think I am) from the perspective of the De Broglie–Bohm interpretation. quotes from the article which is well worth looking at fully rather than just these few quotes...

The basis for agreement with standard quantum mechanics is that the particles are distributed according to | ψ | ^2. This is a statement of observer ignorance, but it can be proven that for a universe governed by this theory, this will typically be the case. There is apparent collapse of the wave function governing subsystems of the universe, but there is no collapse of the universal wavefunction.


De Broglie–Bohm theory is a theory that applies primarily to the whole universe. That is, there is a single wavefunction governing the motion of all of the particles in the universe according to the guiding equation. Theoretically, the motion of one particle depends on the positions of all of the other particles in the universe.


that's what I mean about not having access to all information.

In the history of de Broglie–Bohm theory, the proponents have often had to deal with claims that this theory is impossible. Such arguments are generally based on inappropriate analysis of operators as observables. If one believes that spin measurements are indeed measuring the spin of a particle that existed prior to the measurement, then one does reach contradictions. De Broglie–Bohm theory deals with this by noting that spin is not a feature of the particle, but rather that of the wavefunction. As such, it only has a definite outcome once the experimental apparatus is chosen. Once that is taken into account, the impossibility theorems become irrelevant.

There have also been claims that experiments reject the Bohm trajectories [6] in favor of the standard QM lines. But as shown in [7] and [8], such experiments cited above only disprove a misinterpretation of the de Broglie–Bohm theory, not the theory itself.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby slomo » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:59 pm

justdrew wrote:
slomo wrote:
justdrew wrote:... or ... is there dream after awakening?

Information theory is probably a better guide to afterdream theorizing than quantum mechanics, which I see primarily as being a bookkeeping system for making useful predictions about interactions we don't otherwise have sufficient information about to mechanically model. (map not territory) (but it does seem to hint at some interesting territory)

Quantum mechanics is no such bookkeeping mechanism. That is the "hidden variables" interpretation, which experimental evidence contradicts. See Bell's Theorem. In fact, the ultimate stochastic nature of physical reality is consistent with an information-theoretic interpretation of physical reality. Hidden variables, not so much.


well, I'm talking (or at least think I am) from the perspective of the Bohm interpretation. quotes from the article which is well worth looking at fully rather than just these few quotes...

The basis for agreement with standard quantum mechanics is that the particles are distributed according to | ψ | ^2. This is a statement of observer ignorance, but it can be proven that for a universe governed by this theory, this will typically be the case. There is apparent collapse of the wave function governing subsystems of the universe, but there is no collapse of the universal wavefunction.


De Broglie–Bohm theory is a theory that applies primarily to the whole universe. That is, there is a single wavefunction governing the motion of all of the particles in the universe according to the guiding equation. Theoretically, the motion of one particle depends on the positions of all of the other particles in the universe.


that's what I mean about not having access to all information.

In the history of de Broglie–Bohm theory, the proponents have often had to deal with claims that this theory is impossible. Such arguments are generally based on inappropriate analysis of operators as observables. If one believes that spin measurements are indeed measuring the spin of a particle that existed prior to the measurement, then one does reach contradictions. De Broglie–Bohm theory deals with this by noting that spin is not a feature of the particle, but rather that of the wavefunction. As such, it only has a definite outcome once the experimental apparatus is chosen. Once that is taken into account, the impossibility theorems become irrelevant.

There have also been claims that experiments reject the Bohm trajectories [6] in favor of the standard QM lines. But as shown in [7] and [8], such experiments cited above only disprove a misinterpretation of the de Broglie–Bohm theory, not the theory itself.


The Bohm interpretation is non-local, which violates some cherished beliefs about so-called objective reality. But, in any case, the Bohm interpretation was dealt a recent blow:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 05677.html

What I find fascinating is the commitment to objective realism. Particularly revealing is a quote from Einstein, which I will find once I am home again with access to my library (I'm at my boyfriend's house at the moment). It says something to the effect that Einstein would rather have been a lowly cobbler than to be associated with a physics that is not deterministic. I don't understand the early 20th century commitment to determinism. It's like we love our prison of alienation, and will violently defend it even when shown the way out. Totally mysterious!
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby justdrew » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:23 pm

2. The Impossibility of Hidden Variables ... or the Inevitability of Nonlocality?

Here's how Bell himself reacted to Bohm's discovery (Bell 1987, p. 160):

But in 1952 I saw the impossible done. It was in papers by David Bohm. Bohm showed explicitly how parameters could indeed be introduced, into nonrelativistic wave mechanics, with the help of which the indeterministic description could be transformed into a deterministic one. More importantly, in my opinion, the subjectivity of the orthodox version, the necessary reference to the ‘observer,’ could be eliminated. ...

But why then had Born not told me of this ‘pilot wave’? If only to point out what was wrong with it? Why did von Neumann not consider it? More extraordinarily, why did people go on producing ‘‘impossibility’’ proofs, after 1952, and as recently as 1978? ... Why is the pilot wave picture ignored in text books? Should it not be taught, not as the only way, but as an antidote to the prevailing complacency? To show us that vagueness, subjectivity, and indeterminism, are not forced on us by experimental facts, but by deliberate theoretical choice?

Wigner to the contrary notwithstanding, Bell did not establish the impossibility of a deterministic reformulation of quantum theory, nor did he ever claim to have done so. On the contrary, over the course of the past several decades, until his untimely death in 1990, Bell was the prime proponent, for a good part of this period almost the sole proponent, of the very theory, Bohmian mechanics, that he is supposed to have demolished.


It is worth stressing that Bell's analysis indeed shows that any account of quantum phenomena must be nonlocal, not just any hidden variables account. Bell showed that nonlocality is implied by the predictions of standard quantum theory itself. Thus if nature is governed by these predictions, then nature is nonlocal. [That nature is so governed, even in the crucial EPR-correlation experiments, has by now been established by a great many experiments, the most conclusive of which is perhaps that of Aspect (Aspect et al., 1982).]


seems to me that while it's deterministic in a formal sense, the complete determining factors are so vast and unknowable that for us it's effectively indeterminate. There's plenty of room for things to get nudged one way or the other from 'up there' (meaning from outside our knowledge horizon). and those little nudges, effectively employed, can add up. Up to us even.

the source of some of the nudges effecting us and the "dreamer" I very densely talked abut above is the same thing.
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Re: It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

Postby slomo » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:58 pm

justdrew wrote:2. The Impossibility of Hidden Variables ... or the Inevitability of Nonlocality?

Here's how Bell himself reacted to Bohm's discovery (Bell 1987, p. 160):

But in 1952 I saw the impossible done. It was in papers by David Bohm. Bohm showed explicitly how parameters could indeed be introduced, into nonrelativistic wave mechanics, with the help of which the indeterministic description could be transformed into a deterministic one. More importantly, in my opinion, the subjectivity of the orthodox version, the necessary reference to the ‘observer,’ could be eliminated. ...

But why then had Born not told me of this ‘pilot wave’? If only to point out what was wrong with it? Why did von Neumann not consider it? More extraordinarily, why did people go on producing ‘‘impossibility’’ proofs, after 1952, and as recently as 1978? ... Why is the pilot wave picture ignored in text books? Should it not be taught, not as the only way, but as an antidote to the prevailing complacency? To show us that vagueness, subjectivity, and indeterminism, are not forced on us by experimental facts, but by deliberate theoretical choice?

Wigner to the contrary notwithstanding, Bell did not establish the impossibility of a deterministic reformulation of quantum theory, nor did he ever claim to have done so. On the contrary, over the course of the past several decades, until his untimely death in 1990, Bell was the prime proponent, for a good part of this period almost the sole proponent, of the very theory, Bohmian mechanics, that he is supposed to have demolished.


It is worth stressing that Bell's analysis indeed shows that any account of quantum phenomena must be nonlocal, not just any hidden variables account. Bell showed that nonlocality is implied by the predictions of standard quantum theory itself. Thus if nature is governed by these predictions, then nature is nonlocal. [That nature is so governed, even in the crucial EPR-correlation experiments, has by now been established by a great many experiments, the most conclusive of which is perhaps that of Aspect (Aspect et al., 1982).]


seems to me that while it's deterministic in a formal sense, the complete determining factors are so vast and unknowable that for us it's effectively indeterminate. There's plenty of room for things to get nudged one way or the other from 'up there' (meaning from outside our knowledge horizon). and those little nudges, effectively employed, can add up. Up to us even.

the source of some of the nudges effecting us and the "dreamer" I very densely talked abut above is the same thing.


But that 2007 Nature paper kind of kills Bohm.
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