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JackRiddler wrote:My main doubt about the thesis that he was brainwashed is whether he could be made to believe he'd had three children murdered by his wife. However, this could have also been true if he was the cop. So yeah, I'll go with Door No. 2, and also guess the partner was dead at the bottom of the cliff as he thought he saw, and that everything after he enters the lighthouse was being produced while he was strapped down.
But we're left free to pick either side, and very likely the filmmakers did not intend an answer. And either way it's fiction, hence a construct.
Since Hollywood audiences are trained to take things at face value, I see the ending as a cop-out insofar as it's meant to give them an out, a comforting delusion they are likelier to choose, that all that MK stuff was the fiction and the twist is the "reality." It's also the price of commercial success. You may safely doubt this movie would have been a hit with the critics, or even been produced in the first place if it had gone all the way, left out the "twist" and made clear the doctors were murdering him. The price of getting these real subjects into a full-fledged Hollywood production for two hours is to allow in the final 20 minutes that the protagonist is just another conspiracy theorist. Of course, everyone else was in a conspiracy to fool him, but for a "good" purpose.
RocketMan wrote:The ending could under your analysis be construed as the villains (the "handler" doctor and the institution's chief) overselling the brainwashing programme that they've been trying to drill into the main protagonist. Hence the silly chalkboard etc. However, if this is true, then the sequence where the protagonist's wife murders the children becomes crass and manipulative in the extreme, as well as needlessly long. BUT, following your analysis, the ending shot becomes an über-creepy, foreboding finish to the film, instead of the vaguely sad, melancholy one it seems at first sight.
not necessarily Jack. Not exactly the same, but I've worked with multiples who crossed after a major trauma in their adult life. and there was a strong focus on traumatic events he experienced in the war, that trauma being the doorway to "causing" his split. Also there were some suggestions that he had been being set-up prior to his "arrival" on the island. I may have to see this one again.No matter how bad, a trauma that produced a full alter would have had to come in childhood
JackRiddler wrote:The flaw in either version, and in the film, occurred to me overnight.
He's too old for any trauma to have driven him to the creation of a full alter personality with complete hallucinatory reality. If you buy the face value ending, he was a normal schlub in his thirties and had seen the war, married and fathered three children before his wife murdered them, after which he helped her hide the bodies before killing her. This can drive a grown man to catatonia, dementia, suicide, or many forms of depression or psychosis, but nothing short of a very long regimen of drugs, torture, electrodes and hypnosis would have a chance of making him invent an alternate personality and life history as a competent, credible person that he believes in to the point where, again, he doesn't even recognize that his "partner" is his doctor. No matter how bad, a trauma that produced a full alter would have had to come in childhood. No reference is made to his childhood, rather strange for a movie that's supposed to be a serious, in-depth view of an overwhelming individual psychosis, and where a quarter of the characters are the psychiatrists treating him. Realizing that leaves me with a sense that the film was superficial, and ultimately done for the sensations and "the twist." Which is a shame, since it really took me in. But it kind of obviates further analysis.
The alternate reading also fails for much the same reasons. It's not believable, or at any rate very, very unlikely even with all means of torture, drugs and experimentation available in the 1950s, that a previously stable adult with a strong sense of self (as the marshall would have been) who had not been traumatized in childhood (to which no reference is made) could be driven to that level of hallucination while still retaining the high skills, communicative persuasiveness and signs of self-awareness that he displayed. Turned into a zombie, maybe. Caused to dream it while wallowing in his filth, maybe. Killed, most likely.
So my final word is probably that though I liked it, it fails. It's just a movie.
American Dream wrote:Is there any good evidence that one can create full-fledged dissociative identities with amnesic barriers in adults without a history of early extreme abuse?
I'm not being snarky at all in asking this- would really like to know what the evidence is, as my hunch has been that hardcore perpetrators would have to do this sort of programming on individuals with some sort of preexisting dissociative capacity...
Any evidence that we would have as the general public would suggest that attempts to create full-fledged alters without pre-existing early trauma breaks the patient psychologically. However, most would agree that military / CIA mind-control experiments did not stop when MK-Ultra ended, and I'd assume that they'd have figured out how to do it by now. I'm not sure it's totally necessary with all the traumatized kids there are running around in the world today.
American Dream wrote:Luther Blisset wrote:Any evidence that we would have as the general public would suggest that attempts to create full-fledged alters without pre-existing early trauma breaks the patient psychologically. However, most would agree that military / CIA mind-control experiments did not stop when MK-Ultra ended, and I'd assume that they'd have figured out how to do it by now. I'm not sure it's totally necessary with all the traumatized kids there are running around in the world today.
Also, I don't know if there's reliable figures out there on how many people there are running around with early histories of extreme abuse and/or trauma. My best guess would be: a lot....
Burnt Hill wrote:spoiler alert, sorry waugs-I dont know, my son and I left the theater discussing whether he really was a long time inmate, or whether they had thorougly brainwashed him into believing he was. Dont know anyone else who had that take though.
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