MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

I saw it the other night!

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:06 am

Though it's an excellent, excellent piece of film-making with many great talents meshing beautifully and glorious cinematography, the high point came before the film.

Because nothing's going to top the preview for "Clash of the Titans," not even "Clash of the Titans" itself.

DAMN! THE! GODS!

"It's too late... Release the Kraken!"

Right. Anyway. Getting serious now.

IT'S BEEN SPOILERED PLENTY, SO HERE'S SOME MORE:

Dachau. Paperclip Nazis settled into comfy American sinecures where they conduct mind control experiments. The Bomb hanging over the world and making people go nuts. Psychiatry in transition from eugenics-inspired, unapolegetic brutality to the dream of psychopharmaceutical control with a liberal cast. Covert ops seeping into the supposedly firewalled domestic arena from the very first moment of their institutionalization in the postwar secret agencies. The anti-communist crusade. This real history is stitched together as a persuasive back-story to a fairly thrilling, scary story of Leo DiCaprio as an investigator on an island of nightmare psychiatry.

The supposedly twist ending is telegraphed repeatedly, especially since the commercials already told you to look for one. Soon as our heroic federal marshall (shades of Wild West) learns there are 66 patients on the island, you should not have to ask who will turn out to be the "No. 67" alluded to in an earlier McGuffin. The ending's revised rendering of what really had been going on during the first two hours was so implausible, however, even in comparison to the unlikely (but still compelling) story until that point, that I think that yes, the idea was the poor bastard had been successfully brainwashed into thinking he was an inmate and desiring his own lobotomy. For the "twist" version to be true, the 100 other characters in the film including the staff, guards and supposedly schizophrenic patients would have had to execute a scripted performance with more skill and better timing than a fully rehearsed theater troupe. Also, they would have had to time the hurricane! The idea also fails that his delusions were so complete that he didn't notice his "partner" was the man he'd known until then as the doctor treating him as though he was insane. His actions were coldly logical within the context of his supposed delusions - if he wasn't a cop, how was he so good at it? My main doubt about the thesis that he was brainwashed is whether he could be made to believe he'd had three children murdered by his wife. However, this could have also been true if he was the cop. So yeah, I'll go with Door No. 2, and also guess the partner was dead at the bottom of the cliff as he thought he saw, and that everything after he enters the lighthouse was being produced while he was strapped down.

But we're left free to pick either side, and very likely the filmmakers did not intend an answer. And either way it's fiction, hence a construct.

Since Hollywood audiences are trained to take things at face value, I see the ending as a cop-out insofar as it's meant to give them an out, a comforting delusion they are likelier to choose, that all that MK stuff was the fiction and the twist is the "reality." It's also the price of commercial success. You may safely doubt this movie would have been a hit with the critics, or even been produced in the first place if it had gone all the way, left out the "twist" and made clear the doctors were murdering him. The price of getting these real subjects into a full-fledged Hollywood production for two hours is to allow in the final 20 minutes that the protagonist is just another conspiracy theorist. Of course, everyone else was in a conspiracy to fool him, but for a "good" purpose.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby RocketMan » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:36 am

JackRiddler wrote:My main doubt about the thesis that he was brainwashed is whether he could be made to believe he'd had three children murdered by his wife. However, this could have also been true if he was the cop. So yeah, I'll go with Door No. 2, and also guess the partner was dead at the bottom of the cliff as he thought he saw, and that everything after he enters the lighthouse was being produced while he was strapped down.

But we're left free to pick either side, and very likely the filmmakers did not intend an answer. And either way it's fiction, hence a construct.

Since Hollywood audiences are trained to take things at face value, I see the ending as a cop-out insofar as it's meant to give them an out, a comforting delusion they are likelier to choose, that all that MK stuff was the fiction and the twist is the "reality." It's also the price of commercial success. You may safely doubt this movie would have been a hit with the critics, or even been produced in the first place if it had gone all the way, left out the "twist" and made clear the doctors were murdering him. The price of getting these real subjects into a full-fledged Hollywood production for two hours is to allow in the final 20 minutes that the protagonist is just another conspiracy theorist. Of course, everyone else was in a conspiracy to fool him, but for a "good" purpose.


Wow, that's a very interesting analysis. I agree that such radical themes probably need to be discreetly slipped into an otherwise innocuous broth. But I don't know if it's necessary to end up diluting them to the extent done here.

The ending could under your analysis be construed as the villains (the "handler" doctor and the institution's chief) overselling the brainwashing programme that they've been trying to drill into the main protagonist. Hence the silly chalkboard etc. However, if this is true, then the sequence where the protagonist's wife murders the children becomes crass and manipulative in the extreme, as well as needlessly long. BUT, following your analysis, the ending shot becomes an über-creepy, foreboding finish to the film, instead of the vaguely sad, melancholy one it seems at first sight.
-I don't like hoodlums.
-That's just a word, Marlowe. We have that kind of world. Two wars gave it to us and we are going to keep it.
User avatar
RocketMan
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:02 am
Location: By the rivers dark
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby Burnt Hill » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:08 am

and then there is the "über-creepy, foreboding" music at the end.
User avatar
Burnt Hill
 
Posts: 2584
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:42 pm
Location: down down
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby RocketMan » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:39 am

True dat... Loved the music in the film overall, the powerful strings used at the approach to the institution were spine-chilling.
-I don't like hoodlums.
-That's just a word, Marlowe. We have that kind of world. Two wars gave it to us and we are going to keep it.
User avatar
RocketMan
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:02 am
Location: By the rivers dark
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:45 pm

The flaw in either version, and in the film, occurred to me overnight.

He's too old for any trauma to have driven him to the creation of a full alter personality with complete hallucinatory reality. If you buy the face value ending, he was a normal schlub in his thirties and had seen the war, married and fathered three children before his wife murdered them, after which he killed her. This can drive a grown man to catatonia, dementia, suicide, or many forms of depression or psychosis, but nothing short of a very long regimen of drugs, torture, electrodes and hypnosis would have a chance of making him invent an alternate personality and life history as a competent, credible person that he believes in to the point where, again, he doesn't even recognize that his "partner" is his doctor. No matter how bad, a trauma that produced a full alter would have had to come in childhood. No reference is made to his childhood, rather strange for a movie that's supposed to be a serious, in-depth view of an overwhelming individual psychosis, and where a quarter of the characters are the psychiatrists treating him. Realizing that leaves me with a sense that the film was superficial, and ultimately done for the sensations and "the twist." Which is a shame, since it really took me in. But it kind of obviates further analysis.

The alternate reading also fails for much the same reasons. It's not believable, or at any rate very, very unlikely even with all means of torture, drugs and experimentation available in the 1950s, that a previously stable adult with a strong sense of self (as the marshall would have been) who had not been traumatized in childhood (to which no reference is made) could be driven to that level of hallucination while still retaining the high skills, communicative persuasiveness and signs of self-awareness that he displayed. Turned into a zombie, maybe. Caused to dream it while wallowing in his filth, maybe. Killed, most likely.

So my final word is probably that though I liked it, it fails. It's just a movie.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby Alaya » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:32 pm

The author of the original book, Dennis Lehane, also wrote Mystic River and Gone, Baby, Gone both very intense and gruesome in their way.
User avatar
Alaya
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:49 pm

RocketMan wrote:The ending could under your analysis be construed as the villains (the "handler" doctor and the institution's chief) overselling the brainwashing programme that they've been trying to drill into the main protagonist. Hence the silly chalkboard etc. However, if this is true, then the sequence where the protagonist's wife murders the children becomes crass and manipulative in the extreme, as well as needlessly long. BUT, following your analysis, the ending shot becomes an über-creepy, foreboding finish to the film, instead of the vaguely sad, melancholy one it seems at first sight.


Good points. Crass and manipulative, but makes sense if you conclude sensation, not which meaning is "true," was the point.

-------------------

When you saw it, did it have the same previews?

"It's too late. Release the Kraken!"

DAMN! ... THE! ... GODS!
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:14 pm

Hugh - (i wonder if you'll ever come back to this page)

Could "Rachael" not have been Rachael Carson, writer of Silent Spring (1962) which has themes more in tune with what you're getting at? She has been more or less assassinated too - her warnings about DDT pishawed to the point where people think of her the way they now think of feminists: wacko for a pointless cause.

note: I do not think either the environmental nor feminist movements are pointless causes. AT ALL.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Canadian_watcher
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby Burnt Hill » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:57 pm

No matter how bad, a trauma that produced a full alter would have had to come in childhood
not necessarily Jack. Not exactly the same, but I've worked with multiples who crossed after a major trauma in their adult life. and there was a strong focus on traumatic events he experienced in the war, that trauma being the doorway to "causing" his split. Also there were some suggestions that he had been being set-up prior to his "arrival" on the island. I may have to see this one again.
User avatar
Burnt Hill
 
Posts: 2584
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:42 pm
Location: down down
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:25 am

JackRiddler wrote:The flaw in either version, and in the film, occurred to me overnight.

He's too old for any trauma to have driven him to the creation of a full alter personality with complete hallucinatory reality. If you buy the face value ending, he was a normal schlub in his thirties and had seen the war, married and fathered three children before his wife murdered them, after which he helped her hide the bodies before killing her. This can drive a grown man to catatonia, dementia, suicide, or many forms of depression or psychosis, but nothing short of a very long regimen of drugs, torture, electrodes and hypnosis would have a chance of making him invent an alternate personality and life history as a competent, credible person that he believes in to the point where, again, he doesn't even recognize that his "partner" is his doctor. No matter how bad, a trauma that produced a full alter would have had to come in childhood. No reference is made to his childhood, rather strange for a movie that's supposed to be a serious, in-depth view of an overwhelming individual psychosis, and where a quarter of the characters are the psychiatrists treating him. Realizing that leaves me with a sense that the film was superficial, and ultimately done for the sensations and "the twist." Which is a shame, since it really took me in. But it kind of obviates further analysis.

The alternate reading also fails for much the same reasons. It's not believable, or at any rate very, very unlikely even with all means of torture, drugs and experimentation available in the 1950s, that a previously stable adult with a strong sense of self (as the marshall would have been) who had not been traumatized in childhood (to which no reference is made) could be driven to that level of hallucination while still retaining the high skills, communicative persuasiveness and signs of self-awareness that he displayed. Turned into a zombie, maybe. Caused to dream it while wallowing in his filth, maybe. Killed, most likely.

So my final word is probably that though I liked it, it fails. It's just a movie.


Just Redboxed and watched this for the first time last night. Who's not to say that they did not employ drugs, torture, electroshock, and hypnosis to create an alter and that much of what we saw (even the twist) only existed in the mind of the Teddy character?
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby American Dream » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:32 am

Is there any good evidence that one can create full-fledged dissociative identities with amnesic barriers in adults without a history of early extreme abuse?

I'm not being snarky at all in asking this- would really like to know what the evidence is, as my hunch has been that hardcore perpetrators would have to do this sort of programming on individuals with some sort of preexisting dissociative capacity...
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

American Dream wrote:Is there any good evidence that one can create full-fledged dissociative identities with amnesic barriers in adults without a history of early extreme abuse?

I'm not being snarky at all in asking this- would really like to know what the evidence is, as my hunch has been that hardcore perpetrators would have to do this sort of programming on individuals with some sort of preexisting dissociative capacity...


Any evidence that we would have as the general public would suggest that attempts to create full-fledged alters without pre-existing early trauma breaks the patient psychologically. However, most would agree that military / CIA mind-control experiments did not stop when MK-Ultra ended, and I'd assume that they'd have figured out how to do it by now. I'm not sure it's totally necessary with all the traumatized kids there are running around in the world today.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby American Dream » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:14 am

Luther Blisset wrote:
Any evidence that we would have as the general public would suggest that attempts to create full-fledged alters without pre-existing early trauma breaks the patient psychologically. However, most would agree that military / CIA mind-control experiments did not stop when MK-Ultra ended, and I'd assume that they'd have figured out how to do it by now. I'm not sure it's totally necessary with all the traumatized kids there are running around in the world today.


Also, I don't know if there's reliable figures out there on how many people there are running around with early histories of extreme abuse and/or trauma. My best guess would be: a lot....
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:47 am

American Dream wrote:Luther Blisset wrote:
Any evidence that we would have as the general public would suggest that attempts to create full-fledged alters without pre-existing early trauma breaks the patient psychologically. However, most would agree that military / CIA mind-control experiments did not stop when MK-Ultra ended, and I'd assume that they'd have figured out how to do it by now. I'm not sure it's totally necessary with all the traumatized kids there are running around in the world today.


Also, I don't know if there's reliable figures out there on how many people there are running around with early histories of extreme abuse and/or trauma. My best guess would be: a lot....


Mine too. Hanging out at RI might skew my estimate a little over actual figures, but I figure it's better to overestimate.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: MK Themes in Shutter Island?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:02 pm

Burnt Hill wrote:spoiler alert, sorry waugs-I dont know, my son and I left the theater discussing whether he really was a long time inmate, or whether they had thorougly brainwashed him into believing he was. Dont know anyone else who had that take though.



In the same boat, and actually re-watched it with a group of friends last night to make my case. I think I swayed most of them.

There was a lot of work done to keep things ambiguous! I think Scorcese built something very subtle here.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 136 guests