Bageant, Riddler and Einstein on the capitalist shitfest

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Re: Bageant, Riddler and Einstein on the capitalist shitfest

Postby Luposapien » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:04 pm

A bit late to this thread, but I think it's worth bumping, and definitely worth more than one page of discussion before it sinks completely out of sight.

Finally got round to reading the Joe Bageant article that Mac started things out with, and this paragraph resonated with me pretty strongly:

No ordinary person could ever have withstood such a colonization of human consciousness as the American people have seen. Consciousness being simply awareness, there was no surviving the onslaught. The tsunami of false possibilities and pseudo choices constituted entire constellations in the psyche, of goods, and images of goods large and small: hair dryers, iPods, anti-bacterial wipes, cable television, ammunition, plastic siding, gourmet foods, this HP notebook computer in my lap, the Prius and the Porsche, even words such as Google, Microsoft, China Mobile, Vodafone, Marlboro… They all have psychological and social meaning in our commoditized consciousness, that battlefield where each commodity vies for preeminence with every other commodity in the shifting exposition of stuff we are permitted to labor to pay for


Finding a way to break people out of this imprinted "commoditized consciousness" is vital to moving forward.

Also, I'm happy to lend my voice of support to the Jack Riddler plan for sane political evolution, with the possible exception of the need for even a purely ornamental Chief Executive. I think its time we moved past modeling our large-scale political systems on mammalian family/pack hierarchies. (Not to say they don't still have a valid place at the actual family or pack level, but they just don't seem to work out that well in the long run when you try to scale them up beyond the scope of people you actually deal with on a day-to-day basis).

Like many of you have expressed, it's become difficult for me to see much hope for substantial change to the system as it stands. Or, rather, to a conscious, controlled change that will result in an objectively less crappy enviro-socio-political landscape, as opposed to the crash-and-burn kind of change, which doesn't do anyone any damn good.

However, I've decided to make the conscious, concerted effort to maintain as optimistic an outlook as possible, regardless of the obstacles. I know enough about confirmation bias to realize that as bad as things seem, there's a good chance that I'm just choosing to focus on the negative in order to allow myself the ease of not having to act to change things, because "What's the point, anyway?". If we make the sincere effort to change, it may come to nothing, but if we don't try at all, it certainly will.
If you can't laugh at yourself, then everyone else will.
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Re: Bageant, Riddler and Einstein on the capitalist shitfest

Postby DrVolin » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:37 pm

Excellent post Jack. I wanted to post for you a clip from the final episode of WKRP, but I can't find it anywhere. Spoiler...

















Mother Carlson finally breaks the news to Andy (or rather he finally figures out) that he was never meant to succeed in turning the station around because it is the part of her empire that soaks up the taxes from the profitable businesses. Now that the station is turning a profit, she'll change it to a talk news format.

I do have a comment for you though. Assuming that you did succeed in creating these bank soviets, to replace the boards of directors, would that really create more equality? Most social systems, even if they started with complete equality, would soon generate inequalities, and some of these would tend to become self-sustaining. You would be starting with a situation in which there are already powerful self-sustaining inequalities. The people who are currently on the boards would be in the best position to get onto the soviets. When Roman citizens, after a very long and hard fought battle, forced the Patricians to open the office of Consul to other classes... they continued electing Patricians for many generations. As I am fond of saying at work, if ever there were to be a free market, I would be its most ardent supporter.
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

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Re: Joe Bageant and Jack Riddler on the capitalist shitfest

Postby SonicG » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:02 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:"The basic confrontation which seemed to be colonialism versus anti-colonialism, indeed capitalism versus socialism, is already losing its importance. What matters today, the issue which blocks the horizon, is the need for a redistribution of wealth. Humanity will have to address this question, no matter how devastating the consequences may be."

— Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth (1961)


And of course, here, Fanon was speaking to Africa, which had been subjected to a "capitalist shitfest" for quite a while and, "Praise Bono!", they are still chuggling along...Not trying to be flip but state-capitalism is alive, well, refined and cherished in the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India and China). Any move towards a truly socialist future must be made with the masses of these countries and, in general, they seem to be embracing capitalism pretty fervently. Again, I am not against the complete dismantlement of the capitalist structure, it is just that we need a much more far-reaching, visionary and holistic approach...and one that is less western-centric.
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Re: Bageant, Riddler and Einstein on the capitalist shitfest

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:30 pm

DrVolin wrote:I do have a comment for you though. Assuming that you did succeed in creating these bank soviets, to replace the boards of directors, would that really create more equality? Most social systems, even if they started with complete equality, would soon generate inequalities, and some of these would tend to become self-sustaining. You would be starting with a situation in which there are already powerful self-sustaining inequalities. The people who are currently on the boards would be in the best position to get onto the soviets. When Roman citizens, after a very long and hard fought battle, forced the Patricians to open the office of Consul to other classes... they continued electing Patricians for many generations. As I am fond of saying at work, if ever there were to be a free market, I would be its most ardent supporter.


That is an excellent question and I even woke up today thinking about it. Really. (Plus had a dream of being the misfit in a large church congregation that nevertheless, not due to any action on my part, broke out into a murmuring debate over the nature of all.)

The short answer is, I don't know, but I have some ideas on how it might work. I believe that requiring representation of various groups of stakeholders and conducting negotiations among the different entities in creating flexible fiscal and production plans could work. I don't think the problem with centralization is in the size of the units territorially but in the concentration of all decision-making power in tiny, homogenous, self-interested minorities of technocrats, tycoons and charismatics. If the formal set-up of the bodies controlling and issuing large pools of capital ("banks") forces groups of people (workers, depositors, equity holders, borrowers, communities of operations, those affected by environmental and health impacts) to provide representation from within their own ranks, and if the governmental system were more representative in general (sovereignty in a unicameral legislature with proportional representation) I believe this would ultimately force a learning process for all where they realize they must understand the issues that affect their lives, and also that their lives are tied up with the lives of distant others.

As today I am myself at work in a "free market" enterprise, more will have to wait a more relaxed moment, I hope later.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Joe Bageant and Jack Riddler on the capitalist shitfest

Postby NeonLX » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:06 pm

Alaya wrote:Heh heh Joe's an old friend of mine and he has been at it for a long time. As for being 'sick of it', I got a bad case of it myself. I don't think you could whip me enough to give a shit at this point.



Yeah, same here. I'm well past outrage. Or maybe I've just completely exhausted it. Or something.

Just as well, at my age. My dad died suddenly of a stroke just as he turned 70.

I love Joe Bageant's writing. The guy's stuff really resonates with me. Maybe it's cuz we've got similar redneck backgrounds; I dunno.
America is a fucked society because there is no room for essential human dignity. Its all about what you have, not who you are.--Joe Hillshoist
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Re: Bageant, Riddler and Einstein on the capitalist shitfest

Postby Howling Rainbows » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:26 pm

Mr. Jackriddler my hat is off to you. I bow to your post. That was most astute.
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Re: Bageant, Riddler and Einstein on the capitalist shitfest

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:23 pm

I believe in the separation of powers, just not in the way they've been separated!
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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