Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby 23 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:49 am

Nordic wrote:So ... where were these idiot fucktards when the Bush administration was busy DESTROYING this Constitution which they claim to love so much?

Oh right, they were cheering his ass on.

Fucking morans. They don't even know the Constitution's already dead, and their guy is the one who killed it off.


The Christian Fundamentalists' response to Bush's shenanigans was one thing, but the Libertarians' was quite another. I'll assume that you've lumped the two unintentionally.

I stand in operator kos' and Cordelia's shadow, on this issue.

Notwithstanding the fact that this is not a left-versus-right issue to me as well.

Nor should it be to you.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/234185
Liberals and the NRA have found common cause in a pending supreme court case

When the Constitutional Accountability Center launched in 2008, it looked like just another liberal legal-advocacy group, dedicated to "fulfilling the progressive promise of our Constitution's text and history." The causes it has backed run the standard liberal gamut: among other things, the group supports California's efforts to regulate carbon emissions and pushes for "robust due-process protections for immigrant criminal defendants." So if you were told that the CAC had filed an amicus brief in McDonald v. Chicago, a case about gun control to be argued before the Supreme Court this week, you might think it was siding with Chicago, whose restrictions on gun ownership are being challenged.

You would be wrong. For decades, liberals have opposed gun rights on the grounds that the Second Amendment is limited to the establishment of state militias. But some liberal dissenters from this view now say that is too narrow a reading of the Constitution. They contend that it fails to take into account the historical record and contradicts liberals' own reading of the Constitution's protection of individual rights.

The CAC has joined forces with staunch conservatives, including Steven G. Calabresi, cofounder of the Federalist Society, to support expanding individual rights, including gun rights, in the states—inviting the possibility that Chicago's virtual ban on handguns might be overturned. "There is a deeply progressive historical basis for some individual right to bear arms," says Douglas Kendall, the CAC's founder.

This is still far from the standard liberal view. But Kendall does have allies. Some sharp liberal legal minds are part of his campaign to reverse and embrace the right to gun ownership. "I believe in an individual right to bear arms, consistent with a living Constitution," says Adam Winkler, a professor of law at UCLA and a frequent participant in the American Constitution Society, the liberal answer to the Federalist Society. Winkler was one of eight scholars, including other prominent liberals, who signed the CAC's brief in the McDonald case.

What is going on here? For much of the nation's history, Kendall and his supporters argue, the right to bear arms was considered essential to citizenship. "Forty-two states in their state constitutions provide protections for the right to bear arms," says Winkler. "It is one of the longest-standing, most deeply entrenched rights in American history."

At the heart of the left-leaning dissenters' argument is a plea for consistency. For decades, liberals have insisted that the Constitution assumes—even if it does not explicitly spell out—a right to bodily autonomy. This right, long disputed by conservatives, is a basis for arguments in favor of abortion rights and gay rights. Liberals who support gun rights find a similar implied right to own weapons: after all, they say, what is the right to bear arms but the ability to protect your body from criminals as well as the government? "The right to bear arms gives you a mechanism to protect your bodily autonomy from attack," says Winkler.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby norton ash » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:55 am

Riffing on Cordelia's suggestion, it might be more productive to bring the weapons to the banks of lower Manhattan.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:39 am

norton ash wrote:Riffing on Cordelia's suggestion, it might be more productive to bring the weapons to the banks of lower Manhattan.


Oh sure. For those elements in the government here who would eventually like to shut down Manhattan below 59th Street altogether, and require passcard IDs at the gates and electronic checkpoints, that would be fabulous.

The proverbial mob with pitchforks - signs, actually - might move something, if there were 1 or 2 million of them. A little armed cadre of the righteous, on the other hand, is just what the worst of the PTB would find convenient.

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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby Maddy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:50 am

compared2what? wrote:
Plus, given that this is a gathering of people with guns that nobody is trying to take away from them, I'm not so sure that the symbolic gesture they're making has anything to do with their second amendment rights anyway. Or at least not per se.


This entire thing smells, to me, like something else is up. You get a bunch of people together, over a high-fueled subject of like gun ownership and rights, many of whom will have guns, many of those who will be conservative and possibly drawing attendees with dangerous beliefs and volatile tempers, and with the underlying drums of political unrest we're having now, then set it off with some idiot possibly going ballistic (perhaps purposefully set up in there), and boom! I can see it turned into something quickly which could explode out of control. Then that "out of control" (however it happens) turned into yet another reason to tighten the straight jacket we're all in, now.

Then again, I'm becoming more and more cynical and suspicious as these post 911 years go by.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby beeline » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:05 pm

norton ash wrote:After all, April 19 is OKC and the Burning of Waco day.


And my birthday! So let's not forget: Patriot Day in New England (battle of Lexington-Concord Bridge in the War for Independence) and also the Warsaw Uprising.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:05 pm

23 wrote:Notwithstanding the fact that this is not a left-versus-right issue to me as well.

Nor should it be to you.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/234185
Liberals and the NRA have found common cause in a pending supreme court case


You always do that not left, not right claim. It's a common rhetorical trick where one must be right (meaning, correct, true) by virtue of not being left or right, or in the worst case, of being "bipartisan." In practice, it's used in my experience most often as a justification for being right (meaning, "-wing" and positions associated with that). It's an axiom of center-right politics that they don't even do "politics," that's something unpleasant that all normal people abhor and that "leftists" or "radicals" want to burden the rest with.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:08 pm

.

Hmm, I wonder what the chart would look like if you took measures of freedom and prosperity in a country and graphed them alongside per capita gun ownership or, especially, per capita numbers of guns worn freely on the streets. I don't think that would be very supportive of what's shaping up as the majority position here.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby slomo » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:17 pm

[DELETED due to double post]
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby slomo » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:18 pm

JackRiddler wrote:The logic of the 3 percenters, though they seem incapable of figuring out, would lead to the same thing everywhere: the ones with the guns (whoever they ended up being) would have absolute rule over the ones without (the Palestinians).


What makes you think they haven't figured it out? Look at what they rail against most: any attempt by the federal government to level the playing field even a little bit. They as a group are mostly white, and especially hate rights for minorities.

A dream come true would be laws allowing gun ownership for those of pure European ancestry and laws against gun ownership for anybody else.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby 23 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:31 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
23 wrote:Notwithstanding the fact that this is not a left-versus-right issue to me as well.

Nor should it be to you.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/234185
Liberals and the NRA have found common cause in a pending supreme court case


You always do that not left, not right claim. It's a common rhetorical trick where one must be right (meaning, correct, true) by virtue of not being left or right, or in the worst case, of being "bipartisan." In practice, it's used in my experience most often as a justification for being right (meaning, "-wing" and positions associated with that). It's an axiom of center-right politics that they don't even do "politics," that's something unpleasant that all normal people abhor and that "leftists" or "radicals" want to burden the rest with.


Well that's an interesting and mildly entertaining contention.

Proponents of removing the aisle which separates those folks who sit to the left and right of it... are right-wing seat inhabitants who take that position to advance right-wing issues.

To me, that sounds more like a position that a left-of-the-aisle seat inhabitant would take to keep the aisle in place.

Why are so many aisle-invested leftists afraid of having the aisle removed, is what I want to know?

The aisle, after all, is The Duopoly's most effective tool for convincing the easily convinced that there is a significant difference between the two parties.

When we all know, here at RI anyway, that there isn't.

From where I stand, a leftist who advocates a coercive, authoritarian centralized government is kin to a rightist who advocates the same. Their objectives differ, of course; but their means are identical.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby barracuda » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:37 pm

JackRiddler wrote:...one must be right (meaning, correct, true) by virtue of not being left or right, or in the worst case, of being "bipartisan." In practice, it's used in my experience most often as a justification for being right (meaning, "-wing" and positions associated with that). It's an axiom of center-right politics that they don't even do "politics," that's something unpleasant that all normal people abhor and that "leftists" or "radicals" want to burden the rest with.


Here's a quote from one of the members of the Three Percenters:

    Our aims are:

    a. to defend ourselves and our liberty and property at our front door steps. We will not back up any more. It is the feds who will bring the war to us, first.

    b. to warn anyone who desires further encroachments upon our liberty and property that there will be consequences for their actions, thus, hopefully, to reduce the threat becoming reality.

    c. to make it plain to every one, prags included, that the time is fast approaching — thanks to the “authorities” — when they will have to choose, so they’d better get ready to shoot, shit, or hit the fence.

    Our tactics are defined by those aims.

    The Founders would be entirely at peace with those aims, and our tactics. If the defense of liberty is not YOUR aim, then I suggest you look in the mirror and quit pretending to the rest of us. How else, other than resistance, will you defend our traditional liberties in the coming period? The possibility of further predations of liberty like an “upgraded” AWB, or the seizure of control over the private sale of all firearms (”Loophole”) is upon us. What will you do when they pass and begin to be enforced?

    Will you just roll over — again?

    We are done rolling over. We are finished backing up. You will have to decide what YOU will do when the feds come to enforce compliance on ME at the point of a gun. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I will resist, also at the point of a gun. If the Olofson case proved anything it proved that you can no longer even count on a fair trial in the federal courts. So, if I refuse to go to federal prison for the crime of being innocent, my only rational response is to sell myself as dearly as possible to prevent others from suffering my fate.

    I will die, at least, a free man. And if you do nothing, you will live . . . as nothing. Your choice.

    It is our enemies who are in the driver’s seat. It is the enemies of the Founders’ Republic who will be on the offensive. We Three Percenters are merely in the position of the 82nd Airborne trooper up on the Elsenborn Ridge in December, 1944. As he dug his fighting position, some refugees from the 106th Infantry Division were streaming past him and his buddies, fleeing the destruction of their division at the hands of the Germans. One of them, overcome by curiousity at the sight of somebody who wasn’t running, called out, “Who are you guys?” The paratrooper answered, “I’m 82nd Airborne, and this is as far as the bastards are getting.”

    Mike Vanderboegh

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norton ash wrote:After all, April 19 is OKC and the Burning of Waco day.


And my birthday! So let's not forget: Patriot Day in New England (battle of Lexington-Concord Bridge in the War for Independence) and also the Warsaw Uprising.


Don't forget the eve of Hitler's birthday!

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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby Cordelia » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:53 pm

Maddy wrote: This entire thing smells, to me, like something else is up. You get a bunch of people together, over a high-fueled subject of like gun ownership and rights, many of whom will have guns, many of those who will be conservative and possibly drawing attendees with dangerous beliefs and volatile tempers, and with the underlying drums of political unrest we're having now, then set it off with some idiot possibly going ballistic (perhaps purposefully set up in there), and boom! I can see it turned into something quickly which could explode out of control. Then that "out of control" (however it happens) turned into yet another reason to tighten the straight jacket we're all in, now.

Then again, I'm becoming more and more cynical and suspicious as these post 911 years go by.

Barring provocateurs and crazies, my guess is that it'll be populated by many of the same people who go to gun shows and many who feel the same way you do, post 911, and also post the more recent coup d'etat by the financial cabals.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:41 pm

23 wrote:The aisle, after all, is The Duopoly's most effective tool for convincing the easily convinced that there is a significant difference between the two parties.


Hardly. It's not the false opposition and consensus of the two parties around corporatism in itself, which people largely see through, many of them being well aware of the power of corporate money and the ways in which elections are fixed before they're even held.

It's the rabid and anti-rational politics of the right that assures traffic for the Democrats and the desperate resort to lesser evilism. Understandably so. If the Democrats were to fade away altogether, the Republicans would remain as a theocratic party of hatred of the other and war on the world. But if the Republicans were to fade away, the Democrats, who represent a far more diverse voters' clientele, would promptly shrink, as real alternatives would open up to their left, without the eternal threat of "vote for Nader, get Bush."

There's the essential difference: a rejection of both parties simultaneously isn't going to happen. The one that must be destroyed and discredited to allow progress away from the corporate consensus is the Republicans. They are the system's shock troops. (The 82nd Airborne, if you will. :wink:)

Aside from the duopoly, there are even more effective tools that the power elite (=banksters + corporate managers + super-rich + MIC + permanent policymaking bureacrats + secret agencies and spook world + corporate mass media) uses to keep down the rest of the people: Front and center, imperial nationalism. Related: dumbing down and distraction by many means, starting with schools and mass media. Also key: rat race mentality, economic treadmill for the working poor, apocalypse religions, atomized individualism, crap diet and drugs. Those who think all of these are great tend to identify as "conservative," although that's a perversion of the word. Those who criticize all of these institutions also tend to congregate, however ineffectively, on what is called the "left." The majority of Americans, in fact, hold positions that are normally called "left," but are completely disorganized in doing anything about it.

You may not do this yourself, but if you're honest, you'll admit it's common: to claim one is neither left nor right in the American context usually means one supports the ambient politics, and the ambient politics in this country is right wing.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby operator kos » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:22 pm

Thank you for the respectful responses. In reply I will add the following...

First, understand that my general political views are to the left of a number of people on this board. I voted for Cynthia McKinney and largely share the views espoused by the Green Party.

Nonetheless, I am vehemently against gun control. First of all, it is simply delusional to think that you can stop petty criminals in this country from getting guns. I live in Oakland, CA, which is one of the most violent cities in the U.S. At my old apartment, someone was shot practically on my doorstep. Someone else was shot just a few blocks from where I live now. With thugs breaking into homes and randomly attacking people on the street, I do feel safer owning guns. It's a real shame that I'd risk arrest by carrying one outside of my house. Alameda County has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the country, and it hasn't seemed to do much good. The reason those laws were enacted in the first place is because of a building right around the corner from where I live... the headquarters of the Black Panthers. White politicians were trying to keep black revolutionaries from becoming armed.

Secondly, I live in a country where the federal government considers it legal to kidnap anyone and torture them to death in secret or just assassinate them outright. The targets of these kidnappings are ostensibly terrorists who threaten American lives, but really they are anyone who oppose corporate rule of the planet. Obviously I can't stop CIA hitmen or Blackwater stormtroopers with my little collection of peashooters, but if me and enough of my friends are armed, they'll at least pause to do a cost-benefit analysis of kicking in our doors. (P.S. I'm not delusional enough to think that I'm important enough to warrant such treatment, or that some big roundup will start tomorrow... but 10 years from now? Who knows.)

Lastly, and most importantly my rights do not come from the Constitution. All sentient beings have certain natural and inherent rights. The only justification for government is the protection of those rights and the safeguarding of the common welfare.

Therefore, I think it's a damned shame that I have to rely on people like scumbag traitor Ollie North and the NRA, teabag morons, and white supremacists to stand up for my right to be armed. I hate to be associated with such human filth, but few on the Left seem willing to take a stand on this.
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Re: Bring Your Sidearms To The Banks of the Potomac.

Postby Maddy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:32 pm

Cordelia wrote:Barring provocateurs and crazies, my guess is that it'll be populated by many of the same people who go to gun shows and many who feel the same way you do, post 911, and also post the more recent coup d'etat by the financial cabals.


Its the provocateurs and crazies I worry about. Image
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