Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Peregrine » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:57 pm

StarmanSkye wrote: As for sex-workers like prostitutes, I think its demeaning -- I wouldn't want to date or be married to a prostitute, I guess I'm pretty straightlaced.


Well, technically, I would be considered a sex worker. And I must say I've never once felt demeaned. I used to work in the construction industry. I actually found that much more demeaning, having to listen to crude mysoginistic jokes during lunchtime from fellow workers, followed by some shit eating grins in my direction. Every client I've interviewed & dealt with have been perfect gentlemen.

As for the dating scene for someone like me, the fella would definitely have to be comfortable with my line of work. I guess I won't be snagging any straight-laced fellas! :lol:

I'm not too tolerant about prostitution mainly because sex-workers are usually, invariably exploited.


This is one thing that tends to irk me, is that the industry is painted with a broad brush. That the person working in the industry is most likely exploited. Granted, that is the case sometimes, but all the folks I've come across in the industry are far from exploited. I'm not trying to lecture you or give you a hard time here, SS, it's just that I come across this mentality quite often & all to often people speak to me as if I'm one of those exploited people.

Simulist wrote:Seems to me that Iceland is penalizing honest sex workers.

The dishonest ones marry into money for profit.

Do these "feminists" have a problem with that? If so, are they going to try and shut that down too? If not, why not?


Good point.


All right.. Mini rant over... :backtotopic:
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Simulist » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:59 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
Simulist wrote:Seems to me that Iceland is penalizing honest sex workers.

The dishonest ones marry into money for profit.

Do these "feminists" have a problem with that? If so, are they going to try and shut that down too? If not, why not?


Translation: If a government can't immediately prevent all men from ever inviting any woman, or all hubsnads from ever having more money than their wives, for a meal, then it's hypocritical to introduce legal measures protecting any woman from having to spend x hours a night rubbing herself into a random fat ugly wealthy stranger's groin in order to pay her rent (and her pimp's fee) while pretending to enjoy it.

This makes perfect sense.

That's why progressives say: Shame on you, Icelandic government! Forget your country's self-inflicted economic exigencies! Let the market rule! Let the gals make an honest living! Let the guys relax and have fun! And don't even try to regulate employment (=exploitation for money) before you have entirely revolutionised all relations between the sexes!

With no apologies whatsoever for all the sarcasm-green.

No. Marrying for profit is so culturally entrenched in Western Civilization that it is invisible.

People who marry for profit can sit smugly by, and "Tsk, tsk, tsk" at all the social harm other sex profiteers are said to be perpetrating, and feel quite superior as they do so.

I think that's hypocritical. It's also almost never addressed.
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:17 pm

Ah right. So newly-impoverished Iceland -- not being able to able to abolish entrenched gender-differences worldwide -- should, therefore, just sit back and become Lap-Dancing Capital of Europe. The only way is up. Maybe the most talented lapdancers will eventually marry into wealth, or even open their own clubs.

This makes perfect progressive, anti-sexist, feminist sense. After all, it's done Thailand and the Phillippines a power of good. (That's why you'll never see an Asian woman marrying for money, or out of sheer desperation.)
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Simulist » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:35 pm

You're building strawmen all over the place, Mac. Have at it, if that's your thing.

I'm not convinced that making such laws really "protects" anyone. The activity is driven further underground where it can't be seen by so-called "polite society," but that's really not much of a triumph — and often actually makes matters worse.

Sort of like the "War on Drugs" — yeah, making drugs illegal has been a rousing success in curbing drug use. (Not.)
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:44 pm

Of course, there's a difference between (for instance) Catherine Deneuve in Belle de Jour becoming a high-class callgirl from a position of wealth and doing it out of boredom, or my friend B doing solo performance art in suspenders and with a whip, lucratively, of her own free will, with her own scripts, and with critical acclaim ... and some desperate impoverished girl stuck in a lap-dancing club or a brothel because she can't find any other way to pay the rent, or support her children, or finance her drug addiction, or appease her pimps, or pay off the crooks who abducted her from Eastern Europe.

I don't think that Icelandic law is designed to prevent performance artists from performing art or to prevent wealthy bourgeois wives from escaping boredom however they see fit. I think it's designed for another purpose.
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Re: Re:

Postby DoYouEverWonder » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:48 pm

psynapz wrote:
Peregrine wrote:Hey man, I don't have issue with these guys visiting fetish clubs, but I do take issue with them doing it on the tax payer's dime, which is most likely the case.

I wonder what percentage of the non-black budget is spent literally on booze, hookers n' blow, you know?

I guess ultimately it's yet another channel for laundering public funds out to black projects. Particularly in this case, I would ignorantly hypothesize, due to the easy and abundant blackmailing material such a place would generate.

What else is new?

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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Simulist » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:52 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:I don't think that Icelandic law is designed to prevent performance artists from performing art or to prevent wealthy bourgeois wives from escaping boredom however they see fit. I think it's designed for another purpose.

You may be right about that. I don't know.

In any case, laws like this often have unintended consequences.

However well-intended this new law might be, I hope it doesn't have the unintended effect of actually worsening the lot for desperate women while, as often happens, simultaneously making an underground industry flourish.
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Simulist » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:24 pm

Peregrine wrote:
StarmanSkye wrote:As for sex-workers like prostitutes, I think its demeaning -- I wouldn't want to date or be married to a prostitute, I guess I'm pretty straightlaced.


Well, technically, I would be considered a sex worker. And I must say I've never once felt demeaned. I used to work in the construction industry. I actually found that much more demeaning...

Thank you. This sounds like a really important point — certainly one worth listening to, especially since you've "been there."

We've all heard terrible stories of exploitation in the sex industry — but if there are also positive stories to be told, how many mainstream sources are interested (or even willing) to repeat them?

There are probably a range of very valid experiences surrounding this complex topic.
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:43 pm

Sex work is more likely to become exploitative if its illegal.

If the whole thing is legal and regulated then there are avenues for the workers to get redress over unsafe or injust work practises.

like every other industry (in theory anyway).

I dunno if outlawing stripclubs will solve the problem.

Iceland has a population similar to tasmania's doesn't it?

If so then most people will know most other peoples business...

Its easier to keep track of legal stripclubs in that sort of situation IMO.

Ie keep track of the people in there, where they came from and how they got there. And how they are treated. Which is the real issue.

However on another level,the Iceland economy is in some shit, so perhaps its an attempt to stop the potential wholesale resorting to sex work that could turn Iceland into a destination for various sex tourists.
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Blue » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:19 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:Tangentially:


[list]Iceland: the world's most feminist country

Iceland has just banned all strip clubs. Perhaps it's down to the lesbian prime minister, but this may just be the most female-friendly country on the planet

o Julie Bindel
o guardian.co.uk, Thursday 25 March 2010 22.00 GMT

Iceland's Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir

The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Saturday 27 March 2010

Iceland's prime minister, Johanna Sigurdardottir, was wrongly credited with being the country's first female head of state. That honour goes to Vigdis Finnbogadottir, who served as president from 1980 to 1996


Iceland is fast becoming a world-leader in feminism. A country with a tiny population of 320,000, it is on the brink of achieving what many considered to be impossible: closing down its sex industry.

While activists in Britain battle on in an attempt to regulate lapdance clubs – the number of which has been growing at an alarming rate during the last decade – Iceland has passed a law that will result in every strip club in the country being shut down. And forget hiring a topless waitress in an attempt to get around the bar: the law, which was passed with no votes against and only two abstentions, will make it illegal for any business to profit from the nudity of its employees.

Even more impressive: the Nordic state is the first country in the world to ban stripping and lapdancing for feminist, rather than religious, reasons. Kolbrún Halldórsdóttir, the politician who first proposed the ban, firmly told the national press on Wednesday: "It is not acceptable that women or people in general are a product to be sold."
When I asked her if she thinks Iceland has become the greatest feminist country in the world, she replied: "It is certainly up there. Mainly as a result of the feminist groups putting pressure on parliamentarians. These women work 24 hours a day, seven days a week with their campaigns and it eventually filters down to all of society."

The news is a real boost to feminists around the world, showing us that when an entire country unites behind an idea anything can happen. And it is bound to give a shot in the arm to the feminist campaign in the UK against an industry that is both a cause and a consequence of gaping inequality between men and women.

According to Icelandic police, 100 foreign women travel to the country annually to work in strip clubs. It is unclear whether the women are trafficked, but feminists say it is telling that as the stripping industry has grown, the number of Icelandic women wishing to work in it has not. Supporters of the bill say that some of the clubs are a front for prostitution – and that many of the women work there because of drug abuse and poverty rather than free choice. I have visited a strip club in Reykjavik and observed the women. None of them looked happy in their work.

So how has Iceland managed it? To start with, it has a strong women's movement and a high number of female politicans. Almost half the parliamentarians are female and it was ranked fourth out of 130 countries on the international gender gap index (behind Norway, Finland and Sweden). All four of these Scandinavian countries have, to some degree, criminalised the purchase of sex (legislation that the UK will adopt on 1 April). "Once you break past the glass ceiling and have more than one third of female politicians," says Halldórsdóttir, "something changes. Feminist energy seems to permeate everything."


Thank you, Alice, for this information. For years I have been trying to explain the oppression of females on planet Earth to men (and women) who can't (or refuse to) see the forest for the trees. I have always been against censorship and outright banning of prostitution and "sex work" because I hoped the world would simply evolve where things like the commodification of women's bodies simply disappeared (at least in so-called first world countries, educated countries) just as outright ownership of people has gone by the wayside.

Everyone seems to ignore the stats about why women do this work and the stats about how many women are raped, including a huge number of female soldiers raped by their "brothers in arms." And of course the answer is that WOMEN should take more courses on self-defense and WOMEN should NOT do certain things or dress certain ways.

How about we call on Men to stop raping. Why are there classes in schools for females to protect themselves yet there are no classes in schools for boys and men to uh, stop raping us?

I love new experiments and I hope Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir's goes well!
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby freemason9 » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:41 pm

but, republicans
The real issue is that there is extremely low likelihood that the speculations of the untrained, on a topic almost pathologically riddled by dynamic considerations and feedback effects, will offer anything new.
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Blue » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:45 pm

Well, technically, I would be considered a sex worker. And I must say I've never once felt demeaned. I used to work in the construction industry. I actually found that much more demeaning, having to listen to crude mysoginistic jokes during lunchtime from fellow workers, followed by some shit eating grins in my direction. Every client I've interviewed & dealt with have been perfect gentlemen.

As for the dating scene for someone like me, the fella would definitely have to be comfortable with my line of work. I guess I won't be snagging any straight-laced fellas! :lol:



So, Peregrine, the sex worker, do you honestly believe all women who fuck for money ENJOY what they do and perform sex acts with um, Gentlemen?
Last edited by Blue on Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:46 pm

Its not just women that do sex work.
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby barracuda » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:49 pm

freemason9 wrote:but, republicans


More like butt-plugricans.
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Re: Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

Postby freemason9 » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:59 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:Its not just women that do sex work.


yeah, i work my ass off. it isn't easy.
The real issue is that there is extremely low likelihood that the speculations of the untrained, on a topic almost pathologically riddled by dynamic considerations and feedback effects, will offer anything new.
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