Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

[wintler2]

Goddam, that makes me mad...
I want the enemy to be formidable and...better at simple math, is that too much to ask?

The 'enemy' doesn't really do math, thats half the problem.

[JackRiddler]

Goddam, that makes me mad...
I want the enemy to be formidable and...better at simple math, is that too much to ask?

The 'enemy' doesn't really do math, thats half the problem.

After a multivariant regression analysis I estimate its share in the problem to range from 17.5 to 28.9 percent at most.

[wintler2]

Goddam, that makes me mad...
I want the enemy to be formidable and...better at simple math, is that too much to ask?

The 'enemy' doesn't really do math, thats half the problem.

After a multivariant regression analysis I estimate its share in the problem to range from 17.5 to 28.9 percent at most.

My bias tells me you are a geek and probably a communist and wog-lover who hates us for our freedom, and therefore there is zero problem. And I'll bet my calculation was quicker!

[Hammer of Los]

Woah, just hang on a minute there big fellah. I don't want to derail this thread, but;

It should be noted that RI's busiest resident AGW deniers (BenD, tazmic, Hammer of Los, sorry if missed anyone) are not interested in this story. Tazmic dropped by with a red herring, but apparently none of these brave seekers of truth are at all bothered or even surprised that they're pushing lies produced by fascists.

Firstly, how do you know I'm not interested? I read much, but post little. In fact, this is the first post I've made in ten days. Secondly, can you please direct me to a single lie produced by a fascist that I have pushed on this board. Thanks. Or you might apologise for the needless slurs. Or a third option of your choice.

You might at the very least point out where I denied anthropogenic global warming, since you directly accuse me of that.

But jeez, wintler2, you have so got me misread it aint even funny. You really ought to read more closely what people say.

sigh

All I ever did was ask a few questions, and raise objections to carbon trading schemes and expansions in nuclear energy.

If you can't see that this issue is politicised every which way, then you are lacking in nuance.

But please don't mischaracterise me any further.

[wintler2]

.. can you please direct me to a single lie produced by a fascist that I have pushed on this board. Thanks. Or you might apologise for the needless slurs. Or a third option of your choice.

I'll take the first option, and have more than a single lie.

Fascists need to normalise what they do, so the rest of the populace doesn't impale them on pitchforks. This is you are doing their work for them:

I read the article you quoted Wintler2, but I didn't find it terribly revealing. I already know big corporations fund think tanks. Wintler, about all this funding by Big Oil et al. Lobbyists lobby and PR people do their PR schtick, ie lie, spin, obfuscate, omit, exaggerate, invent etc etc. It's what makes the world go around. Everything is advocacy. Every organisation needs good PR. Perhaps that is part of what is meant by "post-normal science."

Most of your lies are more discreet:

.. Mostly I have learned that the concensus is that they dont know enough about the climate to do much in the way of accurate modelling.

False. Elsewhere in this comment you say you acknowledge reality of anthropogenic climate change and need to reduce emissions, but you are consistently anti-science and anti- any effort to adapt.

There may be legitimate climate scientists who have no political connections somewhere. I'm not sure. I haven't found any yet.

Classic FauxNews generalisation, emerging unbidden from the uneasy consciences of the corrupted.

..another preacher for the New Austerity they are currently advertising..

Nice use of the dogwhistle there.

.. But the understanding I drew from it was that climate science is essentially in its infancy, and basic assumptions are being challenged all the time.

False.

..Furthemore, such study of the climate is in its infancy, and therefore very much in flux as it ought to be. We know of the Greenhouse Effect, a well established scientific theory concerning the warming of the earth due to the accumulation of "greenhouse gases." Although to be honest I know little of the details of the theory, and ought to undertake a little further research. ..
What we don't know is how accurate our climate models are. I would suggest most of the evidence indicates they are less than reliable. Scientists essentially agree that the extent of the warming influence of a man-made greenhouse effect in the last 50 or 100 years is unknown.

Curious how awareness of your own ignorance doesn't stop you committing yourself to the pro-polluter viewpoint. Again.

You get points for subtlety HoL, and for occasionally acknowledging the most unarguable facts of AGW, but your consistent spin is there for all to see.

[wintler2]

Koch family busy helping the sick

..
A conservative think tank that's funded by several prominent backers of right-wing causes may bring a lawsuit over health-care reform on behalf of the governor of Arizona.

The Goldwater Institute has offered to bring the suit for free, and Gov. Jan Brewer is considering the offer, a spokeswoman for the institute told TPMmuckraker.

Brewer, a Republican, has been looking for ways to bring the suit, after the state's attorney general, Democrat Terry Goddard, declined to do so. Fourteen other state attorneys general are suing over the law, which they argue -- despite the weight of expert opinion -- is unconstitutional. ..

[wintler2]

Greenpeace calling for campaign linking Koch to AGW denial on social networking sites.

You might recall that a couple weeks ago our squad of climate crime scene investigators was on the hunt for a secretive billionaire named David Koch.

Well it turns out Koch has accomplices. Lots of them.

David Koch's chief partner in crime is his brother and fellow secretive billionaire Charles. But these two are not acting alone. They are the dons of a massive climate crime family. From 2005 to 2008, the Kochs handed out almost $25 million to groups actively opposing clean energy legislation, carbon emissions regulations, and other environmental policies — groups like the Cato Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and Americans for Prosperity, among many, many others.

To give you a frame of reference for that $25 million number: ExxonMobil only gave about $8.9 million to similar groups during that same period of time. You could say that the Koch Family has really muscled in on Exxon’s climate denial racket.

So we’ve launched a new report entitled “Koch Industries: Secretly Funding the Climate Denial Machine” to make the Kochs and their cronies as notorious as Al Capone.

Here’s how you can help:

Link the word “Koch” to our report, which can be found at http://www.greenpeace.org/kochindustries. Put up as many links as you can, everywhere and anywhere you can put up links. Help us make sure that when someone Googles “Koch,” the top search result will be our report about how they’re spreading anti-climate propaganda and misinformation via a vast web of think tanks, astroturf organizations, and other groups.
Just as importantly, post links on Twitter, Facebook, and other social networks! There are buttons on http://www.greenpeace.org/kochindustries to make this easy for you. When posting to Twitter, use the hashtag #Koch. And make sure to use the keyword “Koch” when posting on Facebook or any other OSN. Google can’t index content on these sites, but they have become significant search venues in and of themselves, so we want to make sure folks searching for “Koch” on these platforms find our report too.

Now for the really fun part! Go to the Koch Industries Facebook page and become a fan. True to their secretive nature, Koch Industries won't let you post anything on their Facebook page, but you can comment on their posts. So leave a comment saying "I am not a Fan of Koch Industries' funding of right wing think tanks and climate denying front groups" and a link to our report (http://www.greenpeace.org/kochindustries).

Koch Industries has been erasing some of our comments on Facebook so far today, so let’s post so many they can’t erase them all! I suggest you scroll down to the seventh post they have, which is all about Koch's “commitment to environmental excellence,” whatever the heck that means. (Koch Industries has a terrible environmental record, by the way.)

After leaving a comment, you can unfan Koch Industries if you want, so that no one thinks you actually like the polluting, climate-denying fat cats who control the company.

Whatever you do — post to your website or blog, on your Facebook or Twitter, or just retweet a link to this blog post — you can rest assured that you’ve helped make the world a little bit safer by exposing these climate denial kingpins and their accomplices in climate crimes.

[Hammer of Los]

Alright Wintler2.

I don't believe your highly selective quotes prove anything beyond the fact that I have a thoroughgoing and well-grounded scepticism in all matters that are highly politicised, and saturated by media spin on all sides.

My comments were always my own based on my reading of materials advised by the various posters, mostly the people trying to convince me of the worst of scenarios.

I have mentioned many times that I think urgent global coordinated action is required to free us from the dependancy on dangerously polluting (and increasingly scarce) fossil fuels. I would advise massive investment in renewables, especially solar and micro generation schemes that make the energy networks more robust and independant. Less cutting down, and more planting of trees might also be good, with sensible long term management schemes. And so on. Also, stop running those tanks and jets all over foreign countries. Whats the carbon footprint of an F-15?

There is one comment that I would like to retract unreservedly. It was not useful. It was just a smartarse remark. It was this;

There may be legitimate climate scientists who have no political connections somewhere. I'm not sure. I haven't found any yet.

Besides which, it really is funny me being a mouthpiece for the corporate energy giants or whatever. I'm a bitter anti-automobile advocate, I own no car and have no licence. I also fly very rarely and reluctantly. Otherwise, I live a fairly spartan material lifestyle, in terms of cost. I mean, I eat well and have a small but pleasant living space. I'm very low maintenance.

I do apologise for having the temerity to ask too many questions, wintler2.

But I would advise you to get off that hobby horse, the height on that thing must be dizzying.



Just a joke, man!

Peace. I really don't want to cause offence. I'm just defending myself from your slurs. Thank you for your time.

[wintler2]

I do apologise for having the temerity to ask too many questions, wintler2.

Its not the asking but your failure to look for or listen to answers that wastes everybody's time.


Have you got any interesting questions or answers on the Koch family, or will you just continue to distract from the topic?
Either way, no more testimonies on how small your carbon footprint is, please.

[TVC15]

Goddam, that makes me mad...is anyone really trying anymore? Oddly, I am mad at Fox News for not perfecting the con; if you are gonna skew a 'survey', at least get your own broadcasted lie straight...I want the enemy to be formidable and...better at simple math, is that too much to ask?

Well here you come totin' it along , so I'd say the con worked a lot slicker than you realize.

They depend on the memory hole, on the flood of trivia we have daily delivered, to wash away the appalling truth. It makes me sad for them, to be so lacking in love for their fellow humans and creatures.. what an abyss of loneliness.

Oh, if I could but touch the hem of your garment!

[wintler2]

Goddam, that makes me mad...is anyone really trying anymore? Oddly, I am mad at Fox News for not perfecting the con; if you are gonna skew a 'survey', at least get your own broadcasted lie straight...I want the enemy to be formidable and...better at simple math, is that too much to ask?

Well here you come totin' it along , so I'd say the con worked a lot slicker than you realize.

They depend on the memory hole, on the flood of trivia we have daily delivered, to wash away the appalling truth. It makes me sad for them, to be so lacking in love for their fellow humans and creatures.. what an abyss of loneliness.

Oh, if I could but touch the hem of your garment!

Have you got any interesting questions or answers on the Koch family, or will you just .. distract from the topic?

Hmm, that makes you the third AGW-denier to post to a thread on fascists funding AGW denial, and the third to make no reference to the topic and only attempt distraction.

Anybody else see a pattern here?

[JackRiddler]

Hmm, that makes you the third AGW-denier to post to a thread on fascists funding AGW denial, and the third to make no reference to the topic and only attempt distraction.

Anybody else see a pattern here?

Yes.

I'll just repeat myself:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27699#p328358

[No_Baseline]

Bumping it bc I am grateful to Jack Riddler and Wintler2 (who I have disagreed with on this board btw) for being true to who they are and for furthering their truth;

I'm very glad this board allows all views, and users aren't afraid to call out the ones that may have a... what is the right word? sinister? propagantive? agenda

[Hammer of Los]

The big industry players control politics. Oil, finance, and military at the heart of it. That's how the game is played. That's an enormous problem right there. Boy, don't we know here how powerful corporate players seek to control politics and the public discourse. We sure do. It sure pisses me off.

Furthermore, I will now personally apply more scepticism with regard to any and all claims that appear to undermine the accuracy of specific climate predictions. But I shan't give up seeking to use my own reason and common sense.

There, those are my comments on the OP.

Now wintler2 accuses me of derailing the thread. I repeat that I am simply responding to needless and inaccurate slurs. If you hadn't addressed me personally on this thread, wintler2, I wouldn't have needed to respond, now would I?

But round here, to wonder aloud as to the degree of accuracy of our climate models is to be branded an AGW denier, it seems. Applying the same standards of rigorous, fact-checking scepticism that we use elsewhere, seems absolutely forbidden on any claim regarding future climate catastrophe. It doesn't seem to matter that I have stated I am a believer in anthropogenic global warming, and agree with the urgent need for action to move away from the use of fossil fuels and other polluting and environmentally degrading practices. It doesn't even matter if I keep repeating these things.

It's all a bit confusing.

Why do you want to hang me on this? Between some of my own views on contemporary politics, and JackRiddler's, there often seems to me very little difference. But I don't like how he sometimes characterises those who may (or indeed, may not) disagree with him. It's all straw men and abuse. Most undignified.

It should be noted that RI's busiest resident AGW deniers (BenD, tazmic, Hammer of Los, sorry if missed anyone) are not interested in this story. Tazmic dropped by with a red herring, but apparently none of these brave seekers of truth are at all bothered or even surprised that they're pushing lies produced by fascists.

They depend on the memory hole, on the flood of trivia we have daily delivered, to wash away the appalling truth. It makes me sad for them, to be so lacking in love for their fellow humans and creatures.. what an abyss of loneliness.

I'm very glad this board allows all views, and users aren't afraid to call out the ones that may have a... what is the right word? sinister? propagantive? agenda

No_Baseline, you seem to be ignorant of the rules that Jeff applies to these forums. Allow me to remind you. And I'm not even a moderator! No, there's no need to thank me;

How many times does one need to be told, please do not "suggest a poster is purposefully spreading disinformation"..

If you would like to keep posting here, start acting like it

Really, if the best you guys can come up with is that I'm a shill for Big Oil, you need to start trying harder to come up with something a little more plausible.

Besides which, I think some folk are getting too paranoid. And believe me, I can certainly understand how that can happen round here.



ps

You get points for subtlety HoL

You are too kind. Alas, I cannot return the compliment. Your own subtlety meter has barely registered a flicker.

[wintler2]

Koch money and dubious displays put credibility of entire museum and science staff on the line

April 1, 2010
Two things are clear if you visit America’s leading “science museum” — the National Museum of Natural History. First, the Smithsonian downplays or ignores the risks posed by human-caused climate change in a number of exhibits. Second, the worst of the exhibits is the David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins.

Yes, the Smithsonian took $15 million from a billionaire polluter — who is an even bigger funder of disinformation on climate science than Exxon Mobil — to fund a misleading exhibit on evolution and climate change. See also the new Think Progress post “A ‘Grateful’ Smithsonian Denies Greenwashing ‘Philanthropist’ David H. Koch’s Dirty Money.”

The exhibit’s main theme is that extreme climate change in the past made humans very adaptable, an interesting theory based on limited data and lots of speculation. But its huge flaw is that it it leaves visitors with the distinct impression that human-caused global warming is no big deal — even though our understanding of the grave threat posed by that warming is based on far, far more research and data. ..