We're all rightwingers now. Now move along libs

[Wombaticus Rex]

When your support for political positions brings power to people you claim to despise, it may be time to assess either your support or your self-image.

^^Hitler was a vegetarian, STFU, that's not logic at all.

Gun confiscation post-Katrina is a fact, not a 'political position.' That fact doesn't go away just because some asshole talked about it.

[barracuda]

Politicised vegetarianism didn't bring Hitler to power, but his rise was facilitated by the series of graduated polemics which blamed jews' control of the media and banks for the people's problems, an attitude which you can find here in spades. Advocating some vague nonsense about the endangerment of our second amendment rights puts you firmly in Sarah Palin's camp.

STFU

Pretty much proving my point.

[norton ash]

Sorry, cuda, that my post began with 'who cares.' America has a mess on its hands wrt bending or breaking the constitution, sorting out all those goddam guns, violation of basic civil liberties, etc. I agree it sucks that wingers and teabaggers can make hay with Katrina's example of martial law. So can anti-fascists and those who fear a police state and unchecked powers. The seizure of guns thing was just part of it, although guns will still altogether remain an American bill-of-rights paradox to me.

So you're right. I want attention to Katrina, but not for the wrong reasons at a high cost to any real chance at progress.

[Nordic]

Just because someone personally doesn't view themselves as a right-winger doesn't mean they can't or don't hold opinions which are also held rather dearly by the extreme right wing in this country. You may interpret those opinions in such a manner so as to conform to your image of yourself as some kind of a kindly caring and sharing anarcho-socialist do-gooder, but don't be surprised when you find yourself in the company of tea partiers or patriot militia types who sport similar world views. And if enough of your core beliefs coincide with those of the extreme right wing, you may be forced to acknowledge either that they are correct in their stances or that you have misapplied your own political label.

I don't think that's the point of anything here.

In fact, the point (insofar as I'm concerned) is that these "conspiracy theories" are largely existant regardless of a political viewpoint. Certainly I don't consider myself "liberal" or "conservative" any more. And I'm quite aware that I share several of these "conspiracy theories" with certain right-wingers. Again that's not the point.

The point is that alternet is using this as a way to get their readership to turn off their brains, i.e. do a simple association connection with the loony right. So that when they hear of those "theories" they'll think "oh yeah, that's that nutty right wing stuff".

I actually enjoy talking to right wingers who have done enough research of their own to be aware of most of the stuff we discuss here. Where we part ways is when they start veering off into Obama being the muslim kenyan terrorist nonsense, with the Pentagon and our military being the saviors to the World of Evil Muslimness, and "liberals" being the other personification of evil in this country. And that kind of nonsense. And they DO veer off rather abruptly, which is too bad, because they are on the right track, these guys.

[Nordic]

Politicised vegetarianism didn't bring Hitler to power, but his rise was facilitated by the series of graduated polemics which blamed jews control of the media and banks for the people's problems, an attitude which you can find here in spades. Advocating some vague nonsense about the endangerment of our second amendment rights put you firmly in Sarah Palin's camp.

STFU

Pretty much proving my point.

What's your point today, that you're a prick? As you suffering from a bad case of Prickness today? It's okay, just admit it like you have in the past.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Cuda, how are we going to move forward if we have to concede any fact that gets taken up by the bullshit industry?

And how does my exasperation with your defeatism prove your point? Or are you referring to another, unrelated point?

[barracuda]

I actually enjoy talking to right wingers ... because they are on the right track, these guys.

[norton ash]

Out of Nordic's context, cuda. Give yourself a time out.

[stefano]

What Wombat said, though he was a trifle terse. These are matters of fact, not commentary. I think it's a shocker that the government confiscated guns after Katrina, as I do whenever a government acts illegally. Right-wingers may have different reasons for objecting than I do, but they're still right. If you don't have a problem with that, then on what grounds do you object to indefinite detention (if you do, that is)?

Just because someone personally doesn't view themselves as a right-winger doesn't mean they can't or don't hold opinions which are also held rather dearly by the extreme right wing in this country.

Quite right.

You may interpret those opinions in such a manner so as to conform to your image of yourself as some kind of a kindly caring and sharing anarcho-socialist do-gooder, but don't be surprised when you find yourself in the company of tea partiers or patriot militia types who sport similar world views.

What 'company'? I would be astonished if I found myself in the company of tea partiers; I understand they don't travel very widely.

And if enough of your core beliefs coincide with those of the extreme right wing, you may be forced to acknowledge either that they are correct in their stances or that you have misapplied your own political label.

They're correct when they agree with me and incorrect when they don't. I wasn't forced to that conclusion, and I'd like to know where your respect for these labels comes from. I take it the OP characterised some opinions you hold as those of the far right: what now? Do you change your mind so as not to risk excommunication from the church of the mainstream American pseudo-left, or do you decide that the author is an idiot?

[Luther Blissett]

I wish I could comment without registering for that service. I'm not doing that.
One heartening fact associated with the reader's comments section on that article: the majority are critical of the content, and many skim the surface of what this thread is about.
One disheartening fact: they are focusing a lot on 9/11.

[barracuda]

Cuda, how are we going to move forward if we have to concede any fact that gets taken up by the bullshit industry?

By recognizing the lines of force put into play through the placid acceptance of talking points such as those associated with "gun rights" and moving toward building consensus through disseminating a real understanding of the issues and their underlying devices. Gun rights in this country are not in jeopardy, Katrina notwithstanding. We are the most individually armed society the world has ever known. But the right wing has successfully manipulated the fear of losing our guns to take and keep power for decades. You have just aided their cause.

And how does my exasperation with your defeatism prove your point? Or are you referring to another, unrelated point?

Personally, I think telling someone to "shut the fuck up" differs from "exasperation" somewhat. I am not defeatist, but I am always interested in deconstructing the uses to which these conspiracy tropes are put by axe-grinders.

Out of Nordic's context, cuda. Give yourself a time out.

I considered it a distillation of the essences.

What Wombat said, though he was a trifle terse. These are matters of fact, not commentary. I think it's a shocker that the government confiscated guns after Katrina, as I do whenever a government acts illegally. Right-wingers may have different reasons for objecting than I do, but they're still right. If you don't have a problem with that, then on what grounds do you object to indefinite detention (if you do, that is)?

The Katrina confiscations were a tiny part of a huge debacle, but isolating the incident was successfully used to augur support for right-wing power groups. Again, gun ownership is not at risk in America. If gun control is the issue you take away from Katrina, then I think I have a pretty good handle on your political bent. Admittedly, it's a short cut. But "Katrina gun confiscation" is a shorthand, so it seems applicable.

I don't hear a huge outcry from the tea party concerning indefinite detention, at least of Muslims. And I haven't seen any far right candidates gaining political power by championing the rights of detainees lately.

I would be astonished if I found myself in the company of tea partiers; I understand they don't travel very widely.

Really. Then prepare to be astonished, because this forum has any number of Ron Paul supporters, "jews control the media" advocates, rabid gun control opponents, NWO, etc. Welcome to the picnic.

They're correct when they agree with me and incorrect when they don't. I wasn't forced to that conclusion, and I'd like to know where your respect for these labels comes from. I take it the OP characterised some opinions you hold as those of the far right: what now? Do you change your mind so as not to risk excommunication from the church of the mainstream American pseudo-left, or do you decide that the author is an idiot?

I don't have to change my mind. The right wing is never correct, because "right" and "left" denote statements of political opinion, not datapoints of factual information. Facts stand outside of political beliefs, and are only important in that regard in as much as they can be profitably put to use.

I tend to agree with the author of the piece in many ways. For example, I think I saw a thread here just yesterday in which HAARP was being blamed for the floods in Pakistan. I mean really - where do you go with that type of thinking? Politically, where does it take you?

If I stand in this conversation as some signpost of leftist gatekeeping, then I'm okay with that, though I think it's also a bit of useless shorthand.

[Wombaticus Rex]

You have just aided their cause.

...by stating the fact I know I watched TV news footage of armed police and military going door to door and confiscating guns?

I think the disconnect is that you're assuming I'm saying shit that I'm not.

HAARP didn't cause floods in Pakistan, but it's still a real installation and there's a similar one in Pine Gap. Those are just facts. HAARP is not a conspiracy theory. There's conspiracy theories about HAARP.

That's the whole of my point.

You had a bunch of people jump on you so I can understand why the waters got muddied.

[kool maudit]

you are being excessively strategy/label-minded barracuda. you are asking for people to withhold statements of fact if and when they do not align with the goals of your favoured movement, or when they aid opponents. this is not particularly rigorous, as it puts the success of the movement before the speaking of truth. bad road to go down.

[Nordic]

I considered it a distillation of the essences.


Now you're just being a low-life liar.

This is what we get from a moderator here?

What bullshit.

Not only that, but your only contribution to this thread has been to provoke and misrepresent what people here are actually saying.

Nice work. What the fuck is your problem?

No wonder this place is dying a slow death. With mods like this, who needs trolls?

[operator kos]

Gun rights in this country are not in jeopardy

When you keep on making this blatantly untrue statement, it really does seem like you're just buying wholesale into the liberal party line. Part of being liberal is hating guns, so I guess I hate guns!

Personally, I'm left of liberal, but I'm still pretty pissed that it's illegal for me to carry a gun in my home town.