The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:39 am

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:In Britain the fears about fluoridisation (going back to the Sixties at least) were always associated with the political far right - "this monstrous commie plot to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids." That was the gist of the argument back then, as Kubrick well knew. I have always been suspicious of the suspicions raised over fluoridation for that reason - I mean, fluoridation of water might well be harmful, and excessive fluoridation of water undoubtedly is, but the most vocal opponents of fluoridation tend to make me think it must be doing some good as well because I have never seen these people aligned against something that wasn't beneficial to the majority.


justdrew wrote:I'd bet the fluoride selling folks were thrilled to have the loony-right against them for this very reason. The tobacco industry should have took over the Flat Earthers and had them go after smoking as evil (and raised their profile). Or maybe if they could have gotten the UFO contactees to come out strongly against smoking.

Wasn't LaRouche a big anti-fluoride guy? Who else? Would be nice if we could find some links supporting this theory. It mostly would seem any such stealth pro-fluoride campaign ended in victory though some decades ago.


Isn't this exactly what happened with 9/11 and the loony-right of Alex Jones and co.?
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:50 am

I think this and chemtrails are both worthy of study as absolute paragons of controlled debate in action.

Fluoride is almost a quixotic quest at this point, being among the least offensive neurotoxins in our water and food supply. Viva PCBs!
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:54 am

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Fluoride is almost a quixotic quest at this point, being among the least offensive neurotoxins in our water and food supply. Viva PCBs!


Please don't compare this to "chemtrails." (Yes, I saw the link to chaff.) Fluoridation actually happens, as a taxpayer financed program advertised as a good thing. You don't know how un-offensive it is as a neurotoxin, and controlled trials of the effects of toxin exposure in an environment where 100,000 synthetic chemicals have been introduced are... aspirational, at best.

As an issue it's a means of establishing the principle that drinking water should be clean of all toxins and treated only to keep it that way, not to medicate the consumer. Also, it's an illustration of corporate profit ueber alles - polluters being paid to dump waste product into drinking water, instead of paying to dispose of this waste themselves.

Besides, in this case there's an international consensus against fluoridation covering pretty much the entire world outside the Anglosphere. Can hardly be said of "chemtrails." (Well, there would be a consensus against them if there was a consensus they actually exist.)
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby DrEvil » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:23 pm

Just a personal observation: I get my water from a well in the basement, my house isn't even connected to the water mains. If I have dirty fingernails I have to actually scrub them to get them reasonably clean. When I go to the US my fingernails get bleached white the first time I put them under a tap. And I don't even have to scrub, the dirt just dissolves. No idea if that's the fluoride, but there sure as heck is some strong stuff in that water.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:26 pm

Jack, that's the exact response that these kind of psychological operations are intended to achieve and I appreciate the illustration. Consensus is all I'm talking about. Controlled debate is a technique, and it's the technique that interests me. The merits of the content are pretty secondary. To me.

Anyways, Chemtrails "actually happen" too, just like UFOs. Just because people are failing to make accurate conclusions or seek quality information doesn't mean they're fucking hallucinating. Does it?
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby justdrew » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:38 pm

Contrails actually happen is all we know for sure.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:52 pm

Recognizing that it is a draft, I think you've done well reporting this issue. Why Fluoride, and industrial waste from uranium refining to create plutonium, is important and I suggest you find that worth mentioning.

I'm not familiar with radioactive waste being applied to farmland. It is possible that what was being spread was ash from radioactive waste after being incinerated in a cement kiln. It is common practice to spread Cement Kiln Dust (CKD) on fields as a liming agent, which is maddening because of the high levels of lead mercury and other heavy metals and dioxin compounds found in the ash and CKD. This is know as a "Beneficial" Use. In NY such industrial waste materials are called BUDs, materials whose Beneficial Use has been Determined.

As you probably are aware, Japan has been incinerating radioactive waste from Fukushima Daichi and telling their populace that it is a safe way to 'get rid' of the irradiated and contaminated waste. Incineration does nothing at all to alter a material's radioactivity, but it very effectively aerosolizes it and distributes it widely, affecting all who breathe downwind. I recently sent some important reports on radioactive waste incineration to a well known (in Japan) Japanese anti-nuke organizer to help inform their citizens about the dangers posed by radioactive waste incineration. He was extremely grateful and at the same time very shocked by his governments wrong-minded approach to dealing with its radioactive contaminated waste.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:18 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Jack, that's the exact response that these kind of psychological operations are intended to achieve and I appreciate the illustration. Consensus is all I'm talking about. Controlled debate is a technique, and it's the technique that interests me. The merits of the content are pretty secondary. To me.

Anyways, Chemtrails "actually happen" too, just like UFOs. Just because people are failing to make accurate conclusions or seek quality information doesn't mean they're fucking hallucinating. Does it?


Please let's leave "chemtrails" aside for the moment. Please leave aside the knowing but vague tone and specify what you mean:

"Jack, that's the exact response that these kind of psychological operations are intended to achieve and I appreciate the illustration."

Which kind of psychological operations? Done by whom? Intended to achieve what? Which "exact response"? Educate me.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby Project Willow » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:43 pm

DrEvil wrote:Just a personal observation: I get my water from a well in the basement, my house isn't even connected to the water mains. If I have dirty fingernails I have to actually scrub them to get them reasonably clean. When I go to the US my fingernails get bleached white the first time I put them under a tap. And I don't even have to scrub, the dirt just dissolves. No idea if that's the fluoride, but there sure as heck is some strong stuff in that water.


You can smell and taste the chlorination in the water in my city. Sometimes it can get to unpleasant levels and makes my throat burn, or at least I assume this is the by product of chlorination, and not some other pollutent.

Pollution Summary
15 Total Contaminants Detected (2004 - 2008)
Aluminum, Barium (total), Copper, Lead (total), Manganese, Nitrate & nitrite, Nitrate, Monochloroacetic acid, Dichloroacetic acid, Trichloroacetic acid, Total haloacetic acids (HAAs), Chloroform, Bromodichloromethane, Dibromochloromethane, Total trihalomethanes (TTHMs)
2 Agricultural Pollutants
(pesticides, fertilizer, factory farms)
Nitrate & nitrite, Nitrate
4 Sprawl and Urban Pollutants
(road runoff, lawn pesticides, human waste)
Copper, Lead (total), Nitrate & nitrite, Nitrate
6 Industrial Pollutants
Aluminum, Barium (total), Lead (total), Manganese, Nitrate & nitrite, Nitrate
8 Water Treatment and Distribution Byproducts
(pipes and fixtures, treatment chemicals and byproducts)
Total trihalomethanes (TTHMs), Total haloacetic acids (HAAs), Chloroform, Bromodichloromethane, Dibromochloromethane, Dichloroacetic acid, Trichloroacetic acid, Monochloroacetic acid
7 Naturally Occurring
(naturally present but increased for lands denuded by sprawl, agriculture, or industrial development)
Aluminum, Barium (total), Copper, Lead (total), Manganese, Nitrate & nitrite, Nitrate
1 Unregulated Contaminants
EPA has not established a maximum legal limit in tapwater for these contaminants
Lead (total)
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby Elvis » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:59 pm

DrEvil wrote:Just a personal observation: I get my water from a well in the basement, my house isn't even connected to the water mains. If I have dirty fingernails I have to actually scrub them to get them reasonably clean. When I go to the US my fingernails get bleached white the first time I put them under a tap. And I don't even have to scrub, the dirt just dissolves. No idea if that's the fluoride, but there sure as heck is some strong stuff in that water.


Dr. Evil, the answer is probably somewhere between Willow's chlorination info and the natural variations in water mineral content. Fluoride may indeed play a role too, I dunno. But my grandparents in the US Midwest had "hard water"---you could taste the minerals in it, it didn't dissolve things (like dirt and soap) as easily as "soft" water, and was not very good for washing & cleaning. They eventually got a "water softener" and it made a big difference.



Jack, your draft essay looks pretty good so far to me. Every voice with good info helps. Fluoride is not an issue I lose a lot of sleep over, but not long ago my small city had a vote on fluoridization and the $100,000 startup cost. The "business friendly" mayor pushed it, and despite a very good info campaign from the anti-fluoride side, the numbskulls voted it in. Kind of unreal, in this mostly "liberal" college town.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby justdrew » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:13 pm

yes Elvis, there is still a push going on to expand fluoridation is places that have up to now evaded it. We're still fending it off in Portland. Check this bullshit article from Oregon's Voice of the Rullingclass, the Oregoonian:

despite the age of the article, the discussion section is still "alive"

Oregon and fluoridation: The go-to place for tooth decay
Published: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 4:16 PM Updated: Friday, April 24, 2009, 10:37 AM
Hundreds of dentists gathered in Portland this week for a national conference on oral health. They came to the right place: Once San Diego follows through on plans to fluoridate its municipal water by May 2010, Portland will be the nation's largest city without fluoridated water.

Portland's kids, especially those in low-income families, will continue to pay the price for Oregon's backward policy: There's overwhelming evidence that children who grow up in communities without fluoridated water suffer much more, and much worse, dental decay.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention calls the steep reduction in dental cavities due to adding fluoride to public water supplies as one of the top 10 public health achievements of the 20th century. It's an achievement not shared in Portland, or in most Oregon communities. Corvallis, Coos Bay, Beaverton and a few dozen other Oregon towns have fluoridated water. But everywhere else, community leaders have bowed to the scare tactics and unsubstantiated claims of people who oppose fluoridation.

In the 1950s, the critics claimed that fluoridation was a communist plot, one of the absurdities lampooned in Stanley Kubrick's "Dr. Strangelove or: How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." Now opponents claim that fluoridation causes weak bones and bone cancer, and/or causes environmental damage. The CDC has studied and rejected all the claims of negative health effects. And at the low levels used in community water systems, there is no compelling evidence that fluoridation kills salmon or causes other environmental harm.

Meanwhile, there is no doubt, none, that lack of fluoridation and tooth decay, especially among children, are strongly correlated. Every dollar spent on fluoridation saves $38 on dental treatment, according to the American Dental Association.

The lack of fluoridation is an especially cruel policy in Oregon, which doubles down on poor kids and their parents by having one of the highest rates of uninsured kids in the nation. If you don't think this is an issue, you ought to show up at one of the occasional free dental days at Oregon Health & Science University, and look at all the kids waiting in the long, long lines, suffering with rotting teeth, painful infections and swollen faces.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:05 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
Wombaticus Rex wrote:Jack, that's the exact response that these kind of psychological operations are intended to achieve and I appreciate the illustration. Consensus is all I'm talking about. Controlled debate is a technique, and it's the technique that interests me. The merits of the content are pretty secondary. To me.

Anyways, Chemtrails "actually happen" too, just like UFOs. Just because people are failing to make accurate conclusions or seek quality information doesn't mean they're fucking hallucinating. Does it?


Please let's leave "chemtrails" aside for the moment. Please leave aside the knowing but vague tone and specify what you mean:

"Jack, that's the exact response that these kind of psychological operations are intended to achieve and I appreciate the illustration."

Which kind of psychological operations? Done by whom? Intended to achieve what? Which "exact response"? Educate me.


Really? Aight: Rejection, prima facie rejection. You were just mentioning the same desired effects upstream in terms of how 9/11 Truth played out. Mere proximity is contagious, that's why we have more than half the rules we do here.

What impressed me the most about The Mighty Wurlitzer was how much Full Spectrum Dominance was basically applied to the entire Dewey Decimal catalog of human research & endeavor. The strategic insight that ongoing, constant background psychological operations was the best approach -- you can't just wait for the next conflict. There were entire covert departments and many many millions devoted to achieving total consensus control from anthropology to physics. Tim Shorrock's book Spies for Hire lays out how much this kind of spookery has been outsourced, totally under control of private actors and beyond any semblance of accountability.

A lot of what you have in bold is a single thread -- psychological operations (a term you're not even remotely unfamiliar with) projects get established around "desired effects." Most missions do. So I bring up Chemtrails because that's a special interest group that got gamed, with great success, and continues to be a honeypot for disinformation artists to this day. In this respect, fluoride is no different, and to complicate matters still further, St. Stanley Kubrick himself shoulders much of the blame for that.

Chemtrails research touched upon a lot of CIA drug smuggling operations, and that's the "they" and the "desired effect" all rolled up into one. Certainly geo-engineering has never been much of a secret, there are many firms actively doing business and carefully describing their operations. However, a number of the companies being identified as chemtrail culprits, sketchy private companies with open access to military bases, were actually involved in something else entirely. This song might sound familiar to Paul Bennewitz.

The nature of the operations is nothing new or special -- infiltration and countermeasures. You hit your target from within and without, in the case of an ideological community you want to feed them bad information and turn sympathetic journalists loose on the resulting horseshittery. "Fluoride being bad for you" used to be how they stereotyped those wacky John Birchers, after all. I use "Psychological Operations" to refer to a spectrum of activities that are being performed by corporate and military actors, primarily through non-combatant channels. AKA "most of what passes for Culture in the United States, from the NY Post to The Atlantic, from Fox News to the NYT." Business as usual.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:52 pm

Oh, I see, you meant not what I was saying about fluoride but my desire to gain distance from "chemtrails." Well, the way it's usually presented - that name alone - isn't the smart, empirical way you're doing it. Sort of what I was starting to do in that draft with fluoride. I get what you mean now, though I think you've become more, what do they call it? Cynical? Grizzled? Hardbit? Understandable.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:25 am

JackRiddler wrote:
justdrew wrote:Uh, the method for disposing of low-level radioactive waste is to spread it in the soil and I swear remembering a TV news story in the 1980s about California spreading waste on farmland and this being sold as a good thing for the resulting agricultural yield. Can anyone back this up?


Didn't the Soviet Union do this as well, as part of Lysenkoism, back in the day? I'm sure it was one of Lysenko's frabjous ideas. Unfortunately, I only vaguely remember it from TV too.
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Re: The official "Fluoride is Bad for You" thread

Postby justdrew » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:34 am

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:
justdrew wrote:Uh, the method for disposing of low-level radioactive waste is to spread it in the soil and I swear remembering a TV news story in the 1980s about California spreading waste on farmland and this being sold as a good thing for the resulting agricultural yield. Can anyone back this up?


Didn't the Soviet Union do this as well, as part of Lysenkoism, back in the day? I'm sure it was one of Lysenko's frabjous ideas. Unfortunately, I only vaguely remember it from TV too.


you've mixed up the quote tags man, those are jacks words.

but as for Lysenkoism, I don't know :shrug:



but though this experiment is post lysenko, it's still kinda interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
the russian silver fox aka blue fox

40 genes, 50 years, enhanced neoteny and bam, tame foxes

could there be tame humans?
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