Truth activists/bloggers snatch defeat from jaws of victory

[justdrew]

yeah, they should have totally withheld all info until every detail had been fact checked and confirmed

what difference do any of these details make? none. he's dead. it's over.

[Nordic]

i always thought most of us just sorta knew he was in pakistan (if he was still alive) under the protection of the isi. is anyone here actually expressing surprise at this?

[The Consul]

I thought he was in Sugarland Texas working as an oil speculator.

[compared2what?]

Very good op HamdenRice.

Part of what I hear you saying is the whole 'OBL is Dead' show represents a victory for the Brzezinski/Obama faction over the Neocons, at least for the present. Am I wrong in thinking this development could be making Israel very nervous?

This development and a number of others could, should and almost certainly are making Israel aware that the United States is pissed off and in no mood for shenanigans. But that doesn't appear to be making it nervous, at least not in any way that I've noticed. But it's kind of hard to tell from here, so I don't really know.

It could just be that they're more complacent than they should be because the military-industrials and narco-criminals here (and elsewhere) do a lot of trade there, though. Those ties don't bind forever, but they don't unravel overnight either as long as someone's getting paid. And they certainly might feel more secure with that than is really merited, that's just human nature.

I'd say not just that a change is going to come but that it's already underway, nevertheless. They're more trouble than their worth to us nowadays, seems like. (I mean "is" in reality, obviously. The "seems like" is supposed to indicate "seems like that's the formal diplomatic view these days.")

I also enjoyed the OP.

[justdrew]

some speculative fiction: What if they've recovered absolute evidence that 911 was an inside job, corroborated with other evidence and that bush knew and approved. BHO then makes the charges public at "ground zero" tomorrow. bush, already tried an convicted today by a special "national security jury" - is hauled out after having been arrested in the wee hours tomorrow, since he won't come quietly, and BHO executes GWB personally live on TV.

119

[bks]

With that epistemology, a long time ago, I concluded that the best explanation for at least part of the 9/11 story, was that foreign military/intelligence elements were involved (rogue or not), which was the biggest hole in the 9/11 Commission Report, which literally edited Pakistan and Saudi Arabia out of the picture. (Whether those foreign intelligence factors implicated US or western forces was a different and more complicated issue.) For this, I was banned from a forum by someone who is posting in this very forum these days, with a dismissive post saying something like, that HamdenRice is always going on and on about bullshit about foreign terrorists and spies in foreign lands plotting terror plots -- as though to accept that there were indeed foreign terrorists (whether manipulated or not) was beyond the scope of acceptable opinion.

Nice to hear from you again, Hamden. We know each other from the better days of the DU forum. If you don't mind, would you let us know the name of the person who banned you from DU, the one that you stated posts here these days? Much appreciated. Cheers.

[freemason9]

some speculative fiction: What if they've recovered absolute evidence that 911 was an inside job, corroborated with other evidence and that bush knew and approved. BHO then makes the charges public at "ground zero" tomorrow. bush, already tried an convicted today by a special "national security jury" - is hauled out after having been arrested in the wee hours tomorrow, since he won't come quietly, and BHO executes GWB personally live on TV.

119

Maybe OBL was Lee Harvey Oswald (not exactly innocent, but not exactly guilty of the accused crime, either).

Back to the original post, though. Why should Pakistan's complicity in hiding OBL implicate it as an actor in the events of 9/11? I don't believe that for a moment. I believe some other crazy things, but not that specific crazy thing.

[justdrew]

some speculative fiction: What if they've recovered absolute evidence that 911 was an inside job, corroborated with other evidence and that bush knew and approved. BHO then makes the charges public at "ground zero" tomorrow. bush, already tried an convicted today by a special "national security jury" - is hauled out after having been arrested in the wee hours tomorrow, since he won't come quietly, and BHO executes GWB personally live on TV.

119

Maybe OBL was Lee Harvey Oswald (not exactly innocent, but not exactly guilty of the accused crime, either).

Back to the original post, though. Why should Pakistan's complicity in hiding OBL implicate it as an actor in the events of 9/11? I don't believe that for a moment. I believe some other crazy things, but not that specific crazy thing.

who was it that's reported as having: pointed out the windows at the WTC and said, "that building's going to be gone" or something like that, wasn't an ISI guy? and we never did get to the bottom of that 250k wire transfer right?

[Perelandra]

who was it that's reported as having: pointed out the windows at the WTC and said, "that building's going to be gone" or something like that, wasn't an ISI guy?

I remember something like that as attributed to a young kid at school, shortly before the event. Surely, someone knows what I'm thinking of. The timing was the weird part. I think that it was long a subtle meme and sometimes wonder if the buildings were purposely built to fail/fall.

FWIW

[justdrew]

who was it that's reported as having: pointed out the windows at the WTC and said, "that building's going to be gone" or something like that, wasn't an ISI guy?

I remember something like that as attributed to a young kid at school, shortly before the event. Surely, someone knows what I'm thinking of. The timing was the weird part. I think that it was long a subtle meme and sometimes wonder if the buildings were purposely built to fail/fall.

FWIW

no this is someone else, but I remember something about that kid too

oh, here it is... no way to know how reliable this is but...

Glass, a former diamonds broker, con man and government informant, worked for the FBI and ATF throughout the 90's, in Florida. Glass worked under deep cover and tricked terrorists into buying arms from the ATF and US military. In July 1999, R.G. Abbas, an arms buyer with links to Pakistani Intelligence, had dinner with Glass in downtown New York. Abbas pointed at the World Trade Center and said "those towers are coming down."

In an interview with INN Report’s Sander Hicks, Glass relates how he desperately tried to warn Washington about an impending attack on the Towers, in July 2001. He sent a fax to head of the Senate Intelligence, Senator Bob Graham (D-FLA). According to Glass's extensive files, his fax to Graham reads, "I've told you repeatedly about my terrorist case…the threats of blowing up the World Trade Center…Airplanes being used."

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/msnbc080202.html

I would guess this R.G. Abbas guy really was an ISI-USconspirator connected operator being used to spread fear and gin up the "threat" - or the whole story was made up. and yet, there it is?

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

As usual, real covert ops were fictionalized by CIA-Hollywood. Lots of 9/11-related real events can be seen at your local video rental store.

Like Glass' role in anti-terrorism counterintelligence in NYCity plus 'bugs' or electronic surveillance.

Real world-

Glass, a former diamonds broker, con man and government informant, worked for the FBI and ATF throughout the 90's, in Florida. Glass worked under deep cover and tricked terrorists into buying arms from the ATF and US military. In July 1999, R.G. Abbas, an arms buyer with links to Pakistani Intelligence, had dinner with Glass in downtown New York.

Remember all those funny scenes with coo-wel weapons in 'Men in Black?'
Double meaning for "aliens?"

Excercise-

.....
The main plot of the movie revolves around a "Bug" (code word for a member of an insectoid alien species that is similar in many ways to a very large cockroach) searching for a miniature galaxy, which is also a vast energy source in 1997 New York. Upon landing on Earth, the Bug kills a farmer named Edgar (Vincent D'Onofrio) and uses his skin as a disguise to aid in the hunt. member of an alien royal family, masquerading as a diamond merchant, has concealed the galaxy on his cat's collar.
.....

"Collar" is cop-talk for arrest....aliens, bugs, weapons, disguises, agents, collars....and on and on

[compared2what?]

Really?

Not Shattered Glass?

Seems like a natural to me.

[Nordic]

So the Seals never killed OBL or had his body -- this despite the fact that the independent Arab and Pakistani media are reporting various statements from the survivors of the attack, such as OBL's wife and daughter, who are making allegations about how OBL was killed. Oh well, I guess they're in on it too, or maybe they're all just actors and actresses or even holograms -- the Pakistani journalists, and the 12 year old girl who "claims" to be OBL's daughter, the wife with the gunshot wound to the leg, the Pakistani officials who don't deny there was a raid and that OBL was living there. They're all lying about Papa bin Laden being shot by the mean Americans and taken away in a helicopter. Ha ha ha! I hate to sound like the assholes of the DU 9/11 Forum, but jeez, just how big do these conspiracies have to be?

Okay, who has actually seen these "survivors"? Are there any real interviews with them? Do we actually know who they are?

I remember babies being ripped from incubators in Kuwait, and Libyans with permanent erections from Viagara running around raping people. All of which were false.

So who are these people and why are you assuming they actually exist?

[HamdenRice]

Inevitably the India and Pakistani tensions will come to boil and the U.S. will always overtly chose India foremost.

I see no evidence such conflict is inevitable.

[HamdenRice]

Very good op HamdenRice.

Part of what I hear you saying is the whole 'OBL is Dead' show represents a victory for the Brzezinski/Obama faction over the Neocons, at least for the present. Am I wrong in thinking this development could be making Israel very nervous?

I think it represents a victory for various Democratic and even Pentagon factions over certain other Pentagon factions. Jack Riddler's post over at DU has a link to a story about two staffers working for the Joint Chiefs floating a proposal to massively downsize the Pentagon. I suspect this is not a coincidence. The neocons are irrelevant at this point.

I think it has nothing to do with Israel. Israel's main challenge now is the democratization of Egypt and other Arab countries, because popularly elected governments will not tolerate the status quo. This doesn't mean war or terrorism, necessarily, but it does mean immediate positive developments like Egypt opening the border with Gaza.