Gold.

[chump]

Thirty years ago, in August 0f 1981, an ounce of gold was $410.

Twenty years ago the price was $360

Ten years ago it was $272.

Five years later, gold was $632. At this point, I told everybody I knew that the dollar was gonna tank, and gold - by comparison - was a better investment than stocks because the stock market is corrupt - don't feed it. Of course, I couldn't follow my own advice because I didn't have any money.

Three years ago the price of gold was $829. I still didn't have any gold, but I was curious. The bailouts were right around the corner. Brokers were short selling stocks - and gold. At this point people were becoming aware of all the bad paper that was holding down the price, and beginning to want physical delivery of their gold. (Sorry, I don't have time to look up the links) It seemed to take forever for the price to get over a $1K; which it did for the first time briefly in March of '08. Then it dropped a little.

Two years ago in August the price of gold was $949, and it didn't break a thousand again until it hit $1008 on September 11th, 2009. Gold hasn't been under a $K since October of the same year.

One year ago - $1220

One month - $1570

Last week - $1732

Yesterday - $1880. Gold did drop a bit, but it was still over $1850.

There is a premium to be paid for physical gold - such as coins or buillion. Does the price of gold reflects the value of the dollar? If it does the dollar and the Euro, you and me, are taking a hit. I can imagine gold being $5000... if there even is a dollar by then. Unless, of course, you bought some gold... which I didn't. And I won't... But that's another story. The dollar is worth about 15% of it was worth just ten years ago, and about half of what it was just 2 years ago!

This is not a recommendation, but if I were to buy gold I would buy coins. Also, until just very recently, silver has historically maintained a certain value in relation to gold. Silver could have an upside now. That's just my opinion and I don't know shit. Maybe the price is already too high and we're looking at another ponzi.

There was a time when gold bullion was illegal to own without a special license.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Executive Order 6102
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Executive Order 6102 is an Executive Order signed on April 5, 1933, by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates within the continental United States". The order criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation.

Rationalization

The order was rationalized on the grounds that hard times had caused "hoarding" of gold, stalling economic growth and making the depression worse.[1] The New York Times, on April 6, 1933 p. 16, wrote under the headline "Hoarding of Gold," "The Executive Order issued by the President yesterday amplifies and particularizes his earlier warnings against hoarding. On March 6, taking advantage of a wartime statute that had not been repealed, he forbade the hoarding 'of gold or silver coin or bullion or currency,' under penalty of $10,000 fine or ten years imprisonment or both."[2]

Effect of the order

Executive Order 6102

Executive Order 6102 required U.S. citizens to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, all but a small amount of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve, in exchange for $20.67 per troy ounce. Under the Trading With the Enemy Act of October 6, 1917, as amended on March 9, 1933, violation of the order was punishable by fine up to $10,000 ($167,700 if adjusted for inflation as of 2010) or up to ten years in prison, or both. Most citizens who owned large amounts of gold had it transferred to countries such as Switzerland.[citation needed]

Order 6102 specifically exempted "customary use in industry, profession or art"—a provision that covered artists, jewelers, dentists, and sign makers among others. The order further permitted any person to own up to $100 in gold coins ($1,677 if adjusted for inflation as of 2010; a face value equivalent to 5 troy ounces (160 g) of Gold valued at about $7800 as of 2011). The same paragraph also exempted "gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins." This protected gold coin collections from legal seizure and likely melting.

The price of gold from the Treasury for international transactions was thereafter raised to $35 an ounce ($587 in 2010 dollars). The resulting profit that the government realized funded the Exchange Stabilization Fund established by the Gold Reserve Act in 1934.

The regulations prescribed within Executive Order 6102 were modified by Executive Order 6111 of April 20, 1933, both of which were ultimately revoked and superseded by Executive Orders 6260 and 6261 of August 28 and 29, 1933, respectively.[3]

Invalidation and reissue

There was only one prosecution under the order, and in that case the order was ruled invalid by federal judge John M. Woolsey, on the grounds that the order was signed by the President, not the Secretary of the Treasury as required.[4]

The circumstances of the case were that a New York attorney, Frederick Barber Campbell, had on deposit at Chase National over 5,000 troy ounces (160 kg) of gold. When Campbell attempted to withdraw the gold Chase refused and Campbell sued Chase. A federal prosecutor then indicted Campbell on the following day (September 27, 1933) for failing to surrender his gold.[5] Ultimately the prosecution of Campbell failed but the authority of federal government to seize gold was upheld.
The case forced the Roosevelt administration to issue a new order under the signature of the Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau, Jr., which was in force for a few months until the passage of the Gold Reserve Act on January 30, 1934.

[edit] Abrogation and subsequent events

The Gold Reserve Act of 1934 made gold clauses unenforceable, and changed the value of the dollar in gold from $20.67 to $35 per ounce. This price remained in effect until August 15, 1971, when President Richard Nixon announced that the United States would no longer convert dollars to gold at a fixed value, thus abandoning the gold standard for foreign exchange (see Nixon Shock).

The limitation on gold ownership in the U.S. was repealed after President Gerald Ford signed a bill legalizing private ownership of gold coins, bars and certificates by an act of Congress codified in Pub.L. 93-373,[6][7] which went into effect December 31, 1974. P.L. 93-373 did not repeal the Gold Repeal Joint Resolution,[8][9] which made unlawful any contracts that specified payment in a fixed amount of money or a fixed amount of gold. That is, contracts remained unenforceable if they used gold monetarily rather than as a commodity of trade. However, Act of Oct. 28, 1977, Pub. L. No. 95-147, § 4(c), 91 Stat. 1227, 1229 (originally codified at 31 U.S.C. § 463 note, recodified as amended at 31 U.S.C. § 5118(d)(2)) amended the 1933 Joint Resolution and made it clear that parties could again include so-called gold clauses in contracts formed after 1977.[10]

Why is gold so valuable anyway? Why is the dollar?

http://www.kitco.com/charts/popup/au3650nyb.html

[wintler2]

Worth a watch if only for educational purposes, imo-
Warning, its fucking heartbreaking...

Heartbreaking and educational. Anyone storing gold against hard times better have a proper bastard file to grind down their krugerands into tradeable dust.

and less and less of anything of durable value left to hide in. But the more of it hides in gold, wont real economic activity shrink?

Real economic activity [sometimes] shrinks because of a lack of equitable wealth distribution, which reduces real-terms spending by the lower echelons of society, and by deflationary fiscal policy. Whether the centralised excess in the hands of the rich is in the form of equities, gilts, commodities or whatever else is of little concern.

There are large and obvious differences between me investing my billion in paper wealth (say shares in Lockheed Martin), in gold, or in physical productive capital.

Venzuela recalling its gold - ... i wouldn't assume the Bank of England has the readies either.

The Bank has printing presses.

You can't print gold.

[smiths]

in response to a question about buying silver now, the answer is, yes you should if you can,

it closed friday at 43 and my prediction is 80 to 100 by the end of the year

gold silver ratio moves between 15:1 and 20:1, if we're conservative and call it 20:1 with gold at 1850, silver should be 92.50 now
that is if gold stays where it is and silver reverts to historical norm,

who thinks gold will stay where it is?

[Marie Laveau]

Worth a watch if only for educational purposes, imo-
Warning, its fucking heartbreaking...

Any of you that have spent time in church know the song that says, "A piece of bread would buy a bag of gold."

I'm sorry, but my cynicism even extends to the inflated price of gold. I think this whole gold and silver thing is bogus. Just one more thing to keep us unwashed masses all hopped up on something that isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. Of course, I could be completely wrong and gold could be where it's at.

[Perelandra]

in response to a question about buying silver now, the answer is, yes you should if you can, it closed friday at 43 and my prediction is 80 to 100 by the end of the year

I would be interested in more explanation.

gold silver ratio moves between 15:1 and 20:1, if we're conservative and call it 20:1 with gold at 1850, silver should be 92.50 now
that is if gold stays where it is and silver reverts to historical norm

Same here, maybe just a link or two?

[Marie Laveau]

Surely the precious metals market is just as manipulated as the stock market?

[Nordic]

It's a different animal. Stocks can become completely worthless, gold and silver will always be gold and silver.

Right now, silver has been manipulated downward, temporarily. It's due for a major shoot up. The historical ratio between gold and silver prices is like the previous poster mentioned. Silver should be $92 an ounce right now and it's not even half that.

It ain't Glenn Beck fans driving up the price, it's entire governments buying billions of dollars worth of it because they all know the fiat currencies currently propping up the rigged game are in danger of collapsing completely. It's the ultimate hedge.

It could drop, but only if you think that somehow someone is going to miraculously turn around this airliner hurtling toward the ground currently known as the World Economy. I just don't see it happening. The U.S. is on this suicide mission with its wars and its monetary policy, and the Euro seems little better. The banks are completely out of control, with the foxes not just running the henhouses but snorting cocaine and having orgies with the other farm animals and burning the seed corn as they do it.

Things are completely spinning out of control and a good man people know it, thus the prices of these things rocketing up while the things they are priced in (dollars etc) go rocketing down.

WTF is up with the Swiss Franc, BTW?

[Marie Laveau]

Yes, I agree with that (different animal, tends to hold worth, even if fiat currencies fail, etc.) yet if you follow the history of gold as legal tender/currency, who really had enough of it to matter? Not the average person, that's for sure.

And it's even more relevant now if one compares a ratio of available gold to the current population. It's one of the big arguments made by the collapse proponents: there isn't even close to enough gold on the face of the planet to be able to make it into a means of legal exchange. Besides the fact that it is always controlled in one way or another by TPTB.

Also, this may be a question for Hugh, but what about the films that have aliens coming and wanting gold? I'm not a watcher of the block-buster type films, but someone on the other forum I'm on was discussing this. I do know that's a discussion that pops up when the Annunaki/Sumerian subject is broached: that gold is quite important to them and IF that is part of what is happening now, they'll be wanting it on this return trip.

[Joe Hillshoist]

it closed friday at 43 and my prediction is 80 to 100 by the end of the year

Is that dollars? It was 5 to 7 bucks somewhere between 04 and 06, I remember telling someone who was into that stuff to buy it.

[Stephen Morgan]

It's a different animal. Stocks can become completely worthless, gold and silver will always be gold and silver.

Which have no inherent value, and unlike stocks provide no additional income.

Right now, silver has been manipulated downward, temporarily. It's due for a major shoot up. The historical ratio between gold and silver prices is like the previous poster mentioned. Silver should be $92 an ounce right now and it's not even half that.

Totally irrelevant. Historically the pound was worth about four dollars, to the extent that a crown, five shillings, was sometimes called a dollar.

It ain't Glenn Beck fans driving up the price, it's entire governments buying billions of dollars worth of it because they all know the fiat currencies currently propping up the rigged game are in danger of collapsing completely. It's the ultimate hedge.

Give evidence.

and less and less of anything of durable value left to hide in. But the more of it hides in gold, wont real economic activity shrink?

Real economic activity [sometimes] shrinks because of a lack of equitable wealth distribution, which reduces real-terms spending by the lower echelons of society, and by deflationary fiscal policy. Whether the centralised excess in the hands of the rich is in the form of equities, gilts, commodities or whatever else is of little concern.

There are large and obvious differences between me investing my billion in paper wealth (say shares in Lockheed Martin), in gold, or in physical productive capital.

Gold relies on the market for its worth, just as stocks do.

Venzuela recalling its gold - ... i wouldn't assume the Bank of England has the readies either.

The Bank has printing presses.

You can't print gold.

Luckily they already have gold, albeit mostly not "owned" by them.

[wintler2]

..Whether the centralised excess in the hands of the rich is in the form of equities, gilts, commodities or whatever else is of little concern.

There are large and obvious differences between me investing my billion in paper wealth (say shares in Lockheed Martin), in gold, or in physical productive capital.

Gold relies on the market for its worth, just as stocks do.

Regardless of how markets value the worth of any asset, there is a huge difference IRL between investing in real goods (eg. productive capital) versus paper & precious metals.

Seperate from speculative wealth, there is a real economy which feeds us. If everybody ignores it as 'of little concern', it will go away, and so will we.

[2012 Countdown]

University of Texas bought a billion worth a few months back. China, India, Korea, Peru...and a few other private firms as of late. The list is growing, w/Chavez being the latest. Lots of players becoming net importers vs. exporters in the past. Not going to look for links, there are plenty of those on various gold threads and money/finance topics here all throughout the past few years. It gets a bit redundant.

Rumor has it Soros is buying control of farmland, so there's that if you're into it.

[bks]

Gold and silver are becoming havens for ordinary people with nowhere else to put their money.

Individuals have been deprived of safe, reliable savings opportunities ever since interest rates were driven down [where they will stay for the next indefinite future]. They're being asked to accept a situation where real inflation [i.e. on the stuff people need to live, like food, energy and basic services] far outstrips what they can earn by saving conventionally. TBTFs have a discount window at which they can get money at basically 0%. Most of the rest of us can't. We don't have prospects for large increases in pay, and so face a slow attrition of whatever we have saved [if we can afford to save anything].

One way around it is to buy gold and silver as a store of value, and not as a hedge against collapse. You move in and out of it with portions of your savings, taking small profits as a bulwark against inflation for as long as there's nowhere else to go. If you'd been doing this from the moment it became clear to the casual economic observer that the capital and equity markets were being gamed [some time in 2007], you would be more than holding your own.

Still, it's a shitty way for people to have to operate. And anyway,the volatility of the PM markets and the official propaganda against using them as a store of value makes it certain that most people with a savings/investment portfoilio won't avail of them. They'll stay the course with their brokers who wouldn't know QE2 from a Q rating.

Nordic wrote:
It's a different animal. Stocks can become completely worthless, gold and silver will always be gold and silver.



stephen morgan replied:
Which have no inherent value, and unlike stocks provide no additional income.

This is wrong. Gold and silver have provided far more "income" than have stocks for a decade. Stocks have no inherent value either. Stocks also don't produce wealth. Business activity can produce wealth, but stocks, like gold and silver, don't.

stephen morgan wrote:

Gold relies on the market for its worth, just as stocks do.

I don't understand this claim. Stocks rely on "the market", and would cease to have any value in a collapse scenario where orderly trading of them could not go on. Gold and silver, on the other hand, don't depend on the PM markets for their value. They would almost certainly retain some value amid social collapse, though clearly it's a mug's game trying to predict exactly how much and in what places, etc.

[Nordic]

The pound to dollar ratio is pretty irrelevant compared to the gold to silver price ratio, which can be measured over a couple thousand years with great consistency. But yes things DO change, so who knows for sure.

[Laodicean]

You can't eat gold. Just sayin'.

More accurately, you can't digest gold.

Gold-coated jelly beans.

Into the dustbin...