There just aren't that many things

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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby 82_28 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:02 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:No matter how strange or meaningful a tv coincidence might be I refuse to allow the boob tube to serve as some sort of vehicle for the universe to speak to me or for me to speak to myself or however you want to think about it.

TV lies. The universe will have to find some other way to communicate with me.


You must not be into PKD then or familiar. In my logic, the pleroma manifests in the ways you don't "want it to", within objects you avoid or cast out. In the ways you ignore, etc. It also manifests through time -- same message -- but cut off from us via the occlusion of true reality which the Empire is constantly, "behind the scenes" making it seem as though time "passes". All true phenomena is in battle with the demiurge, as "true phenomena" is that which is noted outside and apart from the Empire. If gnosis comes through electromagnetic transmissions, then it comes through the transmission -- who is one to ignore it? It is up to you as the receptor. Which, not to make shit personal again, BPH, but your very problem with me perhaps is exactly this -- you don't have an open mind about these things and are constantly in a defensive position and get pissed off with minutia rather than the actual soul expressing itself. I absolutely love sifting through television programming and crosschecking with contemporary data and then scouring archives of shit before the Internet, but that the Internet makes possible to access -- devil's bargain. It has no effect on me and I love watching for the tells and ways in which one can collect the history into an accessible resource.

TV lies. So does my girlfriend and I can tell when she does so. Doesn't make the phenomena any less riveting as to the source of why this is so.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby Nordic » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:42 pm

How about that weird phenomena when you're stoned and watch tV and you see the weirdest and most bizarre shit, stuff that is actually never on TV at any other time.

This used to be something I could count on, back when I would occasionally get high. The weirdest one was a show about some guy who had lost hundreds of pouds to the point where he had to have something like 87 pounds of excess skin surgically removed, with photos of the skin after it had been cut off of him, photos of him almost smothered in the folds and wrinkles of his excess skin before it was cut off. Unreal.

Anyone else experience that? You'd have to be a person who doesn't smoke pot all the time, but now and then, like I used to. :)
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby 82_28 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:03 pm

Yeah, I know what you mean, Nordic. I've never been a stoner either. Very little psychoactive substances go a long way with my brain. Just a hit or two of weed sends me on my creative ways.

Back in the day when Tim and I were wandering the neighborhood together, I think I had just finished reading VALIS or possibly The Divine Invasion, we smoked a little weed and drank some beers and I swear to God every single reflection in any window or the glass of a car formed an ICHTHUS. It wasn't a hallucination though. I was perfectly with it, but "Jesus Fish" were everywhere I looked. It was awesome and it made perfect sense.

I was just reading about that old "Magic Eye" shit where you cross your eyes and refocus and a 3D image pops out at you that was all the rage in the '90s, because I was thinking about how I have taken to doing this to plants, especially trees at night when a streetlight illuminates them from above. It helps when there are no leaves on the branches. But you can see 3D images in the branches when using the technique -- sometimes. There's something that wants to pop out at you though. Also, in more wintry climes while the branches are bare, go out and look at the branches of any given tree under the light of the moon or a streetlight. You will notice they all are trying to complete a circle. Try it. I swear, it never fails. Then give it the magic eye treatment and see if anything pops out of nature's pattern.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby Sounder » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:17 pm

The story telling article was nice, thanks Plutonia

Pay attention to your actions because you are constantly communicating with yourself.



on edit; Kill the Irishman; great movie, definitely worth renting. I watched to catch some local history after moving to Cleveland a few years ago.

There is a great line where Walken's character tells the Irishman that 'a real businessman never uses his own money'. Same as it ever was.

And I think you are right 82-28, there are not that many things, but it doesn't take much before the combinations become effectively infinite.
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:15 am

As promised... Because I am professionally bored and frustrated and the 10,000 Monkey thing annoys me deeply (and is in fact related to the issue of life appearing "by chance" from molecules just randomly bouncing around some peripheral blue planet in a forgotten corner of outer space), I took the time to work out the related probability theory. (I swear I actually taught a long class in the middle of working this out, so I'm not a total parasite!!) The combinatorics are sufficiently difficult that you cannot come up with exact probabilities, but you can come up with upper and lower bounds.

I assume that we are working with an alphabet of size A (e.g. A=26) and time is measured in units of typewriter keypresses, T. If the monkeys are slow, T is measured in units of 1 second, but if they are employable as word processors then maybe T is measured in units of 1/10 second. I am interested in the probability of producing, at some point in time, a text of size L. Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is about L = 105,891 to 147,189 letters, depending on how exactly you measure. I assume that every character could be pressed with equal probability, and that sequential keypresses are independent. Neither of these assumptions is strictly true from purely physical considerations because of the arrangement of a standard QWERTY keyboard, but these assumptions actually favor higher probabilities, because it would be harder to break the autocorrelation to produce a specific work that was inconsistent with the arrangement of QUERY letters, and some of the necessary keys may also be slightly harder to access (e.g. "x" in "exeunt").

The lower bound is acheived by chopping up the entire timeline into T/L intervals, each of length L. The probability of typing out the desired text in any one of those little intervals is 1/AL, so the probability of not typing out that text (in that one inverval) is 1-1/AL. The probability of the monkey missing his chance in every one of the T/L intervals is (1-1/AL)(T/L). This quantity overestimates the overall probability of failure because it ignores the opportunity to type the first portion of the text in one interval and the remainder of the text in the next interval. Thus, it is an upper bound on the failure probability, and therefore 1 - (1-1/AL)(T/L) is a lower bound on the success probability. L'Hopital's rule (break out your old calculus textbook) demonstrates that this probability converges to 1 as T increases to infinity (and A and L remain fixed), which is the original inspiration for the 10,000 monkey meme: indeed, if we wait long enough, even one monkey will produce Shakespeare, with certainty.

But how long would we have to wait in the real world? First, let's calculate the upper probability bound. This is achieved by observing that the monkey could start the exact text on the first L keypresses, and then could type whatever he wants on the remaining T-L keypresses, for a total of A(T-L) remaining random possibilities! Or he could start on the second keypress, with still the same number of random possibilities [since there are still T-L free key presses, the first, then the (L+2)nd, (L+3)rd, etc.] Or he could start with the third keypress, etc. There are T-L+1 possible starting points, but if he doesn't get it right before keypress number T-L+2, there's no way he can finish the text in sufficient time. Thus the probability is at most (T-L+1)A(T-L)/AT. Why "at most"? Well because we're double counting some of the same exact sequences. Adding up the T-L+1 possible starting points is the same thing as taking the union of T-L+1 different sets, and by adding probabilities we are ignoring the overlaps in the sets. The probability of overlap depends on the exact nature of the sequence of the desired text, which is why the combinatorics are so difficult. No matter, the upper bound is sufficient for our purposes, because we can see what the maximum probability is for a fixed A, L, and T:

P <= (T-L+1)A(T-L)/AT = (T-L+1)A-L
log10(P) <= log10(T-L+1)-L*log10(A),

where P is the probability of one monkey producing the desired text in time T.

I downloaded Romeo and Juliet and found 147,189 characters, 64 of them unique (upper and lower case letters, plus punctuation). Let's consider going easy on the the monkey and give him an immortal supply of bananas if he can get the play right without punctuation and ignoring upper and lower case distinctions. This reduces the problem to a text of size 105,891 on 26 letters. The universe is about 13.7 x 109 years old, i.e. 4.3 x 1017 seconds, or 4.3 x 1018 typewriter keypresses (assuming a monkey who is competitive in the word processing labor market). For the "hard" problem (perfect punctuation and case), log10(P) <= -265,831 in one cosmic lifetime, i.e. P <= 10-265831. For the "easy" problem (no punctuation or case distinction), log10(P) <= -149,814. At this small scale, an ensemble of 10,000 monkeys merely multiplies the single-monkey probability by 104, so log10(P10000) <= -265827 for the "hard" problem and log10(P10000) <= -149,810 for the "easy" problem.

Let's turn the problem around and ask how long we would need to wait. With some algebra,

T >= P10000 AL + L - 1 >= P10000 AL,

so that log10(T) >= log10(P10000) + L*log10(A)

105,891 * log10(26) = 149,833, so to get even a 1 in 100 chance, we would have to wait 10149831 keypresses, or 10149824 years, or over 10149813 cosmic lifetimes to get 10,000 monkeys to type out a simplified version of Romeo and Juliet.

Thems not very good odds. Let's not torture 10,000 monkeys in the dim hopes of proving a profoundly stupid point.
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby barracuda » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:11 am

As with so many situations, you need more monkeys.
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:27 am

barracuda wrote:As with so many situations, you need more monkeys.

Well now that is really the crux of the problem, isn't it?

Of course, I am a dour, humorless scientist, so I am obliged to point out to you that there are only 1082 atoms in the universe. And, because I am intellectually honest, I will also point out that I made a mistake at the end of my last post: my time calculations were the time required for just one monkey (I forgot to multiply by the number of monkeys), so that you should subtract 4 from each of those common logarithms. Calloo-Callay, O Frabjous day, we would need only 10149809 cosmic lifetimes if we had 10,000 monkeys. And if we could some how make a monkey from exactly one atom, and used up all the available atoms in the universe, we might perhaps achieve Romeo and Juliet in 10149731 cosmic lifetimes. The simplified version of course, you understand, but we're very flexible in these parts.

Damn, if we use up all the atoms on monkeys, what will we do for typewriters?
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby barracuda » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:33 am

Maybe we should just shoot for a dirty limerick.
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby slomo » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:48 am

barracuda wrote:Maybe we should just shoot for a dirty limerick.

Even a haiku would suffice, really. I'm that desperate:

Typewriter monkey,
Why you no make me Shakespeare?
I wait all damn day!


Also, a good scientist should always do a thorough literature review. It turns out that different people have come up with different estimates:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c ... ypewriters

Wiki (which just came back online) has a good treatment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby Iamwhomiam » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:37 am

There once was a lady from Cape Cod
who thought her baby came from God,
But it wasn't the Almighty that lifted her nighty,
it was Roger the lodger, by God!
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby Hammer of Los » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:45 am

...

That is so correct!

There are only a few things.

There is The Thing.

And there are fish.

And tables.

And spoons.

And clouds.

And so on. I dont know how long it would take to list them all.

But the mind may only hold so many symbols.*


:angelwings:


* before it explodes.



...
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby Harvey » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:21 am

There are worlds enough and monkeys too. Anway, did you hear the Monkeys ON Typewriters union split last night? Some of them wanted to re-name as United Union of Monkeys ON Keyboards but I hear that the largest of the breakaway factions has unanimously decided that Society of Primates Union for Neo-shakespearian Keyboardists is more inclusive and has a certain ring to it.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby sunny » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:31 am

'What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun'.

Everything is a variation/mutation of something else. As with art, all life is derivative of what came before.
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby Hammer of Los » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:12 am

...

sunny wrote:'What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun'.

Everything is a variation/mutation of something else. As with art, all life is derivative of what came before.



Indeed.

The beautiful sunny one is wise.

There IS nothing new under the Sun.

Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose.

Yet there is Perpetual Change;






...
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Re: There just aren't that many things

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:33 am

Miss Dazzling and I were talking about movies this past Sunday during brunch, and I couldn't remember Chloë Sevigny's name. I kept saying things like ... "you know, she was Patrick Bateman's secretary in American Psycho ... she was in Gummo, and Kids ... oh, oh, she gave Vincent Gallo the hardcore blowjob in Brown Bunny!" My gal knew exactly who I was talking about, but was inexplicably sharing my inability to access the information.

20 minutes later we were walking through the East Village and who walks by?

Chloë freaking Sevigny.

Check please!
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