The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby NeonLX » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:13 pm

Back when I was in college (a really long time ago), even in my dimwitted way I noticed that the students attending the business school--many of them going for MBAs--were really "uptight" kind of people, unlike us hippie liberal arts types, who would generally "go with the flow". I guess they were more career-centered and were very focused on getting out to make money. At the time, I wasn't really conscious of it but I had made an internal decision to go into a field that was more publicly-spirited and did not have any likelihood of making me a wealthy dude...Forty years later and I'm still a poor slob living paycheck to paycheck, juggling bills and floating checks every month to keep from having the 'lectricity & gas turned off...

On edit: Many of the MBA students came from wealthy families, drove nice cars (Porsche 914s and BMW 2002s were common), and presumably had much of their tuition paid for by mumsy & daddy...me? I drove a city bus and painted houses to get my sorry @ss through school, often dropping down to part time status in order to make tuition + rent in my dive of an apartment...
America is a fucked society because there is no room for essential human dignity. Its all about what you have, not who you are.--Joe Hillshoist
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Nordic » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:31 pm

Project Willow wrote:
Ms. Parker wrote:If you want to know what god thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to.



Nordic wrote:This is why I stay poor.

(I'm not entirely kidding. I don't want to be one of those people. Really)


Are you sure you've got that right?

Which comes first, the assholery or the money? Seems to me it would be the former which argues against your statement, JR, besides, who made the system anyway.

justdrew wrote:is this a followup study (in the OP)? I seem to remember a very similar story coming out a couple years ago.


I think that was about conservatives. So of course it's rich conservatives ruining our world. Ah, what an enjoyable confirmation bias.



Interesting notion, Willow. When I first moved to Los Angeles as a budding film director, the people who - saw around me, the people who I could see that were in the Group I Wanted To Be a Part Of, well, I couldn't stand them and seriously did not want to be like them, or even have anything to do with them.

Tjen again there are always many reasons, conscious and otherwise, for various forms of self-sabotage.

I've always had few actual role models and zero mentors. Its been a real problem.

But I still kinda hate "those people" with their White People's Problems and their (often) faux liberalism and their starfuckery and everything else. Hell, just reading the trades makes me want to take a shower.

The one friend I have who has had a spectacular success in that world has a natural glamor that he was born with and that he is able to use to his advantage in any situation. He's not an asshole but he is quite selfish in many ways and can be quite ruthless.

So yes, Assholes Finish First, don't they, at least for the most part.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Simulist » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:35 pm

There are people so poor that the only thing they have is money.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Postby wintler2 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:57 pm

What i want to know is, is this broadening condemnation of rich people & richness representative of a groundswell in public opinion and heralding eg. new estate taxes and a flood of fearful philanthropy, or is it just symbolic relief, allowing us peasants a quiet moan, now back to work?
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Simulist » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:05 pm

It's the quiet moan, so far. There aren't enough of us yet who want, figuratively at least, to "eat the rich."

Astonishingly, lots of us peasants really believe we'll be Blake Carrington one day.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Aldebaran » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:09 pm

Project Willow wrote:Which comes first, the assholery or the money?

Interestingly enough.... from the original text:

Study 7. To further understand why upper-class individuals act
more unethically, study 7 examined whether encouraging positive
attitudes toward greed increases the unethical tendencies
of lower-class individuals to match those of their upper-class
counterparts. When the benefits of greed were not mentioned,
we expected that upper-class individuals would display increased
unethical tendencies compared with lower-class individuals, as in
the previous studies. However, when the benefits of greed were
emphasized, we expected lower-class individuals to be as prone
to unethical behavior as upper-class individuals. These findings
would reveal that one reason why lower-class individuals tend to
act more ethically is that they hold relatively unfavorable attitudes
toward greed (and, conversely, that one reason why upperclass
individuals tend to act more unethically is that they hold
relatively favorable attitudes toward greed).
[snip]
Together, the findings we observed in study 7 indicate that
priming the positive features of greed moderates class-based
differences in unethical behavior. Importantly, lower-class individuals
were as unethical as upper-class individuals when instructed
to think of greed’s benefits, suggesting that upper- and
lower-class individuals do not necessarily differ in terms of their
capacity for unethical behavior but rather in terms of their default
tendencies toward it.
Image


Good thing our economy isn't largely predicated on conditioning the population towards greed.
Last edited by Aldebaran on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Luther Blissett » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:14 pm

After I posted this on facebook, I noticed a lot of my working class friends either making fun, or uneasily, cautiously putting their feelings to paper. It was then that I realized that a lot of them likely did not want to be seen as "jealous" or "envious," which are two despicable traits in a lot of the places they're from.

It was as if they were saying, "you know what? This can be true sometimes. Here's some anecdotal evidence from my experiences," as if they had never heard of the concept of the corruption of power because of their lifetime of baller dreams.
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Simulist » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:19 pm

Aldebaran wrote:
Project Willow wrote:Which comes first, the assholery or the money?

Interestingly enough.... from the original text:

Study 7. To further understand why upper-class individuals act
more unethically, study 7 examined whether encouraging positive
attitudes toward greed increases the unethical tendencies
of lower-class individuals to match those of their upper-class
counterparts. When the benefits of greed were not mentioned,
we expected that upper-class individuals would display increased
unethical tendencies compared with lower-class individuals, as in
the previous studies. However, when the benefits of greed were
emphasized, we expected lower-class individuals to be as prone
to unethical behavior as upper-class individuals. These findings
would reveal that one reason why lower-class individuals tend to
act more ethically is that they hold relatively unfavorable attitudes
toward greed (and, conversely, that one reason why upperclass
individuals tend to act more unethically is that they hold
relatively favorable attitudes toward greed).
[snip]
Together, the findings we observed in study 7 indicate that
priming the positive features of greed moderates class-based
differences in unethical behavior. Importantly, lower-class individuals
were as unethical as upper-class individuals when instructed
to think of greed’s benefits, suggesting that upper- and
lower-class individuals do not necessarily differ in terms of their
capacity for unethical behavior but rather in terms of their default
tendencies toward it.
Image


Good thing our economy isn't largely predicated on conditioning the population towards greed.

Which is why I think the Gordon Gekko "Greed is Good" speech from the 1980s was one of the most insidiously evil things to emerge from Hollywood ever.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby brekin » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:24 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:
After I posted this on facebook, I noticed a lot of my working class friends either making fun, or uneasily, cautiously putting their feelings to paper. It was then that I realized that a lot of them likely did not want to be seen as "jealous" or "envious," which are two despicable traits in a lot of the places they're from.

It was as if they were saying, "you know what? This can be true sometimes. Here's some anecdotal evidence from my experiences," as if they had never heard of the concept of the corruption of power because of their lifetime of baller dreams.


Word brother Luther. Reminds me of John Steinbeck's quote about Americans; "I guess the trouble was that we didn't have any self-admitted proletarians. Everyone was a temporarily embarrassed capitalist."

I think most people don't resent the system that produces Yertle the Turtle so much as the fact that they themselves aren't Yertle (yet).
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Nordic » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:24 pm

Simulist wrote:There are people so poor that the only thing they have is money.



Whoa. Yes. That's one for the quotes thread. Puts into words exactly what I've felt about this subject.

A lot of that around here. But not to generalize, I have, in the past 12 years or so, met a lot of nice people with loads of money. They just tend to be the exception rather than the rule. And often, ironically, often they have inherited it.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Phil » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:33 pm

Am I rich or poor? (Materially) Depends who we're comparing to? I guess most of us are "not like" the poorest there are. What's the OP saying?
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:35 pm




From the Mikaela Conley article:

He also pointed to high rates of violent crime in the poorest neighborhoods in the country that counteract the study’s findings.


Thom Hartmann has pointed out that the annual FBI "crime statistics" omit white collar crime, which, Hartmann says, is actually double that of street crime (I'll have to check that statistic again but you get the idea). So, somehow, white collar crime is somehow not a "crime" to be included in crime statistics?


In the Max Abelson piece:

“I feel stuck,” Schiff said. “The New York that I wanted to have is still just beyond my reach.”

That's a classic example of the kind of middle class yearnings, insecurities and frustrations that cloud values and judgement. If you can't "get by" on $250K there is something wrong with you.

"I don’t have a dishwasher. We do all our dishes by hand.”

OMG, tears are running down my face! This is just too sad. How can he have people over when they're sure to notice there's no dishwasher? That would just put a pall on the whole evening.

And the deep shame of buying discount salmon---that's something you can hide from your friends, but not from yourself.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby wintler2 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:08 pm

Phil wrote:Am I rich or poor? (Materially) Depends who we're comparing to? I guess most of us are "not like" the poorest there are. What's the OP saying?

But we're regardless encouraged to feel poor, even that guy on 250k, how else to sell us more?
Ultimately i wonder if this isn't a modern version of the servant/martyr complex the xtians used to push before prosperity gospel came along. 'Be happy you are poor, it proves you are good' sorta thing, with similar promise of intangible reward. Thats how i'd like my slaves to think, less likely to buck the system.
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:49 am

Schiff, I'm sure, has issues due to his famous brother Peter Schiff, who's the CEO of the firm he works for.

Trying to keep up with the brother, you know?

Still, that attitude among the 1%'ers seems to be epidemic. "I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH!!"

Fuck them.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: The Rich, They're Not Like You and I...

Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:44 am

Of course the rich are different. They act differently, they look different, they have very different concerns and worries, they're treated differently by others, and they live and work in, and frequent, places where reality has a very different logic to it, where the spoken and unspoken rules are different. They notice other rich people more. Poor people often take on the somewhat generic characteristics of props, or extras.

Being rich is not only about having more money, it's more of a perceptual transformation. Even people who have been poor have a hard time identifying with the relatively petty, basic struggles and anxieties that used to consume their daily lives, drain their energy, their time. Even the occasional twinges of empathy felt by a rich person are almost always accompanied by other twinges, of hostility, as in, "Thank God I'm not you!" It might not be expressed, or even consciously thought, but it's there. In some, it leads to callousness and obliviousness, in others it leads to guilt-driven generosity and charity-giving (as though they are buying the right to be different), in still others it leads to fear-driven enmity, even viciousness against the not-me.

Personal qualities like kindness, humility, politeness and generosity are treated differently when it's a rich person who possesses them -- because it's understood that they're not really necessary; it makes them special, wonderful. At the same time, there's nothing special about them being on the receiving end of kindness, humility, politeness and generosity. They can get away with a lot more, and some (most) do.

How are the rich different? I could go on and on about it. Rich people are not necessarily bad people, but they are not like the others. There are things they can't understand, and important things to which they're blind. They should never, ever, be allowed to run countries or make decisions on behalf of those who are not like them.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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