Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Coma

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:11 am

Hammer of Los wrote:...

You'd be surprised at exactly how much of the ineffable can actually be effed.

...


Sam Harris did a good job effing this one: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

The most valuable detail was some shop talk from actual neuroscientist Dr. Harris:

In his Newsweek article, Alexander asserts that the cessation of cortical activity was “clear from the severity and duration of my meningitis, and from the global cortical involvement documented by CT scans and neurological examinations.” To his editors, this presumably sounded like neuroscience.

The problem, however, is that “CT scans and neurological examinations” can’t determine neuronal inactivity—in the cortex or anywhere else. And Alexander makes no reference to functional data that might have been acquired by fMRI, PET, or EEG—nor does he seem to realize that only this sort of evidence could support his case. Obviously, the man’s cortex is functioning now—he has, after all, written a book—so whatever structural damage appeared on CT could not have been “global.” (Otherwise, he would be claiming that his entire cortex was destroyed and then grew back.) Coma is not associated with the complete cessation of cortical activity, in any case. And to my knowledge, almost no one thinks that consciousness is purely a matter of cortical activity. Alexander’s unwarranted assumptions are proliferating rather quickly. Why doesn’t he know these things? He is, after all, a neurosurgeon who survived a coma and now claims to be upending the scientific worldview on the basis of the fact that his cortex was totally quiescent at the precise moment he was enjoying the best day of his life in the company of angels. Even if his entire cortex had truly shut down (again, an incredible claim), how can he know that his visions didn’t occur in the minutes and hours during which its functions returned?

I confess that I found Alexander’s account so alarmingly unscientific that I began to worry that something had gone wrong with my own brain.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby DrEvil » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:55 pm

Just to expand a bit on what I said:
I don't think there is anything special about consciousness. It's not in charge.
Do you decide to get angry or happy, or does it just "happen"? Do you stop to think about it when you put your hand in the fire? Do you have insights after sleeping on it?
I think consciousness is a byproduct of society. It's a planning tool to help us navigate our society and maximize personal gain.
Or to put it a different way: If humans were solitary predators I don't think we would be conscious at all. We wouldn't need it.
I think consciousness is subjective. We can't draw objective conclusions from something that is anything but objective. Our brains tell us what we need to hear to cope.
I also firmly believe that consciousness/personality are firmly planted in the grey stuff inside our skulls.
If you hit someone in the head with a sledgehammer, just so, they will come out of the hospital six months later with a completely new personality. New interests, new skills, new speech patterns and generally speaking - new person all around. It's got nothing to do with any global consciousness or soul/life force/whathaveyou, and everything to do with the wiring in our skull.
But as HoL pointed out - I'm evil, so don't take my word for it :)
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 4159
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby LilyPatToo » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:30 pm

After years of denying the existence of any kind of survival of consciousness, I've slowly swung back to an interest in it. But my approach is different now than it was for most of my life (prior to my loss of faith in 1994). Now I require more information and read as much on the science of the NDE as I do first-hand testimony. I posted here a while back about seeing what apparently was the ghost of a little girl while I was riding a transbay bus across the Oakland Bay Bridge in late March. It was a stunning and very unexpected experience and I did what I could to investigate it immediately after she disappeared--got up from my seat and searched the bus for her. There had been no stops since she suddenly appeared and no way for anyone to have boarded or gotten off. The girl also made eye contact with me and there was consciousness and intelligent awareness in her gaze.

There is a very detailed account of an NDE by a woman named Anita Moorjani in a recently published book Dying To Be Me. And there's an organization called IANDS that collects first-person accounts and also has done statistical studies on their data. Many of their members are medical doctors interested not in belief but in evidence that might explain their patients' reports of having experienced another reality.

There are different kinds of disbelief in NDEs, I've noticed. There are the rigorous questioners who retain open minds, the narcissistic/oppositional debunker types and the diehard skeptics whose world view (strangely, to me) depends upon there not being any continuation of consciousness in any form. The latter two will reject every case, no matter what, so if I find myself in a discussion with one of them, I change the subject. Life's too short to keep doing this: :wallhead:

LilyPat
User avatar
LilyPatToo
 
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:08 pm
Location: Oakland, CA USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:10 pm

DrEvil wrote:...
I think consciousness is a byproduct of society. It's a planning tool to help us navigate our society and maximize personal gain.
Or to put it a different way: If humans were solitary predators I don't think we would be conscious at all. We wouldn't need it.
...


so, when humans got together to form societies consciousness arose as a byproduct? was it because of the gurning they did that speech evolved? wait, consciousness is a tool to help us navigate society, which developed ex nihilo once we got together in societies and realized we needed tools to navigate it.

DrEvil wrote:...
Or to put it a different way: If humans were solitary predators I don't think we would be conscious at all. We wouldn't need it. ...


solitary predators don't need consciousness. look at all the unconscious solitary predators out there in the animal kingdom! see what i mean!?

DrEvil wrote:...
I think consciousness is subjective. We can't draw objective conclusions from something that is anything but objective. Our brains tell us what we need to hear to cope.
I also firmly believe that consciousness/personality are firmly planted in the grey stuff inside our skulls...


no shit, consciousness is subjective. if we were solitary predators without consciousness we wouldn't draw any damn conclusions anyway, we wouldn't need to. the only reason we draw conclusions (including this one right here!) is because conclusions are a by product of society. they're not really conclusions but kind of like smoke you get when rubber rubs rubber over time. like books and science and shit. objective conclusions and thoughts that are just useless and wouldn't have been around if we were all solitary predators.

not that i'm drawing any conclusions here though, just so you know, i mean i'm conscious which means i'm subjective and i only draw conclusions from the objective, which means that in order to do that i'd have to be unconscious and objective and not conscious and subjective. geddit?

so, you know:

DrEvil wrote:... don't take my word for it :)


it might not even be a word at all. right?

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:22 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:...

Sam Harris ...


wrote this book if he did not write then at least he ok'ed this blurb:

...In this explosive new book, Sam Harris tears down the wall between scientific facts and human values, arguing that most people are simply mistaken about the relationship between morality and the rest of human knowledge. Harris urges us to think about morality in terms of human and animal well-being, viewing the experiences of conscious creatures as peaks and valleys on a “moral landscape.” Because there are definite facts to be known about where we fall on this landscape, Harris foresees a time when science will no longer limit itself to merely describing what people do in the name of “morality”; in principle, science should be able to tell us what we ought to do to live the best lives possible.

Bringing a fresh perspective to age-old questions of right and wrong, and good and evil, Harris demonstrates that we already know enough about the human brain and its relationship to events in the world to say that there are [i.e. that science has the] right and wrong answers to the most pressing questions of human life.
...


Sam effin' Harris.

*

oh heck, here you go.

Sam Harris is wrong about science and morality
Published November 17, 2011 | By Brian D. Earp

By Brian Earp (Follow Brian on Twitter by clicking here.)

I just finished a booklet by “New Atheist” Sam Harris — on lying — and I plan to write about it in the coming days. But I want to dig up an older Harris book, The Moral Landscape. Why? Because it still makes me grimace.

I say “still” because I read the book months ago. I just haven’t yet vented my bafflement. Permit me to gripe, then, about Harris’ (aging) “bold new” claim — presented in his book — that science can “determine human values” or “tell us what’s objectively true about morality” or “give us answers about right and wrong” or however else you package this fiction.

In his new book (the one about lying) Harris says, in effect, you should never, ever, do it — yet his pretense in The Moral Landscape to be revolutionizing moral philosophy seems to me the very height of dishonesty. What he actually does in his book is plain old secular moral reasoning — and not very well — but he claims he’s using science to decide right from wrong. That Harris could be naive enough to think he’s really bridged the famous “is/ought” chasm seems incredible, and so I submit that he’s exaggerating* to sell books. Shame on him.

*A previous version of this post had the word “lying” here, but I was told that my rhetorical flourish might be interpreted as libel. I hope “exaggerating” is sufficiently safe. Now onward to my argument:

I’ll start by saying what the “is/ought” divide is, in case you haven’t heard of this before. It’s an old idea, tracing at least to David Hume, and its gist is that there is no way to reason from facts about the way the world is, to statements about the way the world should be. You can’t derive values from data. I’ll use one example to illustrate and then move on.

Example. It’s a fact that rape occurs in nature — among chimpanzees, for instance; and there are some evolutionary arguments to explain its existence in humans and non-humans alike. But this fact tells us exactly nothing about whether it’s OK to rape people. This is because “natural” doesn’t entail “right” — indeed, the correct answer is that it’s not OK, and this is a judgement we make at the interface of moral philosophy and common sense: it’s not an output of science.

You get the idea. The domain of science is to describe nature, and then to explain its descriptions in terms of deeper patterns or laws. Science cannot tell us how to live. It cannot tell us right and wrong. If a system of thought claims to be doing those things, it cannot be science. If a scientist tells you she has some statements about how you ought to behave, they cannot be scientific statements, and the lab-coat is no longer speaking as a scientist. Questions about “How should we live?” — for better or worse — fall outside the purview of “objective” science. We have to sort them out, messily, by ourselves.

Now: if there were a way to get from “is” to “ought” it would take a work of philosophical genius to lay it out, and Harris’ book is not a work of philosophical genius. I can summarize his argument in a few lines:

1. Morality is “all about” improving the well-being of conscious creatures.

2. Facts about the well-being of conscious creatures are accessible to science.

3. Therefore science can tell us what’s objectively “moral” — that is, it can tell us whether something increases, or decreases, the well-being of conscious creatures.

Here’s the problem. Premise (1) is a philosophical premise. It’s not a fact of science, it’s not a fact of nature, it’s not derivable from science, it’s not derivable from nature: it’s a value judgment. You might think this is a good premise; you might not – and even if you think it’s basically on track, there’s a lot of philosophical work to be done to spell it out. (Exhibit A – how do you define well-being in the first place, “scientifically” or otherwise?)

What this boils down to, then, is that given a certain philosophical value, premise, or starting-point, science can feed us relevant facts in our sorting-out of how to live. Ok, but so what? That’s just what science has always been able to do. This is just secular moral philosophy, minding the facts.

But let’s grant Harris his first move. Let’s give him his philosophical premise. Maybe he means that science is getting sophisticated enough to help us solve certain precise moral puzzles that exist within the overarching philosophical framework we’ve agreed to. Maybe neuroscientists will one day tell us astonishing things about how pain is processed in the brain, and this will allow us to deduce the correct moral outcome in some particular case (again, premises granted).

Maybe. But if this is what Harris wants to say, the examples he comes up with are weak. Such as? How about the Taliban. Harris says that according to science, the Taliban’s treatment of woman (enforced burqa-wearing, etc.) is objectively morally wrong. Why? Because enforced burqa-wearing is not conducive to the well-being of conscious creatures, namely the conscious creatures forced to wear burqas.

I hope you’ll agree that we didn’t need science to tell us that hurting women in this way is bad: common sense will do just fine. And if someone disagrees, say, the Taliban, intoning “but science says you’re mistaken” will do little to change their minds. What Harris is doing is trying to hijack the prestige and “objectivity” of the scientific enterprise to label the behavior of certain groups as categorically WRONG.

In philosophy, of course, there’s a big debate about whether certain moral systems are better than others, or whether, indeed, there are “objective” moral facts at all. This has been going on for a few hundred years. By asserting that all we need to know about morality is that utilitarianism is correct, and that, further, there are strict facts about what sorts of things maximize utils, Harris adds nothing to the debate. He just sidesteps it.

By the way, Sam Harris came to Oxford several months ago to give a talk about The Moral Landscape called, “Who says science has nothing to say about morality?” This particular talk was hosted by Richard Dawkins. To kick off the Q&A, Dawkins pressed Harris on just what he was saying that was new. Here’s a bit of that conversation:

Dawkins: You’re facing the classic problems that moral philosophers have been facing for a long time… You appear to be bringing to those problems a new thought, which is that science, as opposed to just philosophic thinking — reason — could help. Now, moral philosophy is the application of scientific logical reasoning to moral problems. But you are actually bringing your neurobiological expertise to bear, which is a new way of doing it. Can you tell me about that, because I’m not quite clear about how doing neurophysiology adds insight into these moral problems.

Harris: Well, I actually think that the frontier between science and philosophy actually doesn’t exist… Philosophy is the womb of the sciences. The moment something becomes experimentally tractable, then the sciences bud off from philosophy. And every science has philosophy built into it. So there is no partition in my mind.

So by “science” Harris evidently means, “philosophy” … or at least something that’s not different from philosophy in a principled way. Let me check my brochure for a second and confirm what the title of his talk was — the radical-sounding title that sold so many tickets — yes, here it is, it’s, “Who says science has nothing to say about morality?” If we do a quick update based on Harris’ personal definition of science, we get … “Who says philosophy has nothing to say about morality?”

The answer is: no one ever said that. Moral philosophy plus facts is not “science” telling us objective moral truths.

I’ll close on a personal note. I was in the audience at Harris’ Oxford talk, and during the Q&A I nudged him on two points. First, how exactly did his argument get us over the is/ought divide; and second, what can “science” tell us about morality that we didn’t know from common sense. Our exchange can be seen in the video below, and I’ll make just one comment before you watch it. Notice the first four words of Harris’ reply to my question: “The moment you grant …” My point has been that what Harris wants you to grant is a philosophical, not a scientific, premise; hence, his “moral landscape” is not scientifically determined as he claims.

Here’s the link (please forgive my animated gesticulation; I was frustrated, and trying to be polite).

Follow Brian on Twitter by clicking here.



OTHER GOOD CRITIQUES OF HARRIS’ ARGUMENT:

Simon Rippon has a critique here; Massimo Pigliucci has one here; Russell Blackford has a pretty good one here; and the best one I’ve seen is by Whitley Kaufman in Neuroethics here.

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/20 ... -morality/


*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:35 pm

Sure, but he's still exponentially more cogent and considered than Eben Alexander. I do not see this as a legitimately two-sided argument - the Newsweek piece was such low-hanging fruit that Thomas Friedman could have written a serviceable takedown article.

The larger issue of this New Atheism fad has a lot of room for discussion and critique.

The issue of Dr. Alexander's experience justifying the cover headline "HEAVEN IS REAL" is a much simpler affair. Let's savor the flavor of an easy answer -- they're hard to come by these days.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby Hammer of Los » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:41 pm

...

You make good points Wombat.

Fair do's.

I could say so much.

But I'm just a tease.

...
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:44 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Sure, but he's still exponentially more cogent and considered than Eben Alexander. I do not see this as a legitimately two-sided argument - the Newsweek piece was such low-hanging fruit that Thomas Friedman could have written a serviceable takedown article.

The larger issue of this New Atheism fad has a lot of room for discussion and critique.

The issue of Dr. Alexander's experience justifying the cover headline "HEAVEN IS REAL" is a much simpler affair. Let's savor the flavor of an easy answer -- they're hard to come by these days.


in fairness, forget Friedman, Sam Harris' take down of Eben Alexander applies (cf., above) to Sam Harris' own low-hanging BS, so, in principle, Sam Harris could've written a take down of his own BS.

also, in principle, if he was any sort of moral person at all, he wouldn't have written and published and promoted and sold his own BS at all. but he didn't. so...

*

oh, i see. he's pissing territory:

Sam Harris Believes in God
Oct 18, 2010 8:00 AM EDT
The neuroscientist and rationalist has made his name attacking religious faith. Who knew he was so spiritual?

Sam Harris, a member of the tribe known as “the new atheists,” wishes the headline to this story said something else. How about “Sam Harris Believes in Spirituality,” he suggests over lunch. Or “Sam Harris Believes in ‘God,’ ” with scare quotes?

In any case, Sam Harris—a hero to the growing numbers of Americans who check the atheist box on opinion polls—concedes he believes in something certain people would call “God.” In a related thought, he raises the topic of his next project: a spirituality guide tentatively titled The Illusion of the Self. Based on Harris’s own “spiritual journey,” it will “[celebrate] the spiritual aspect of human existence [and explain] how we can live moral and spiritual lives without religion,” according to a statement from his publisher, Free Press. It’s surprising. One hardly expects Harris, a hyperrational polemicist, to veer into the realm of spiritual self-help.

Spirituality is not a new interest of Harris’s, however. A careful reader will have noticed that though he’s often been lumped together with the rabble-rousers Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens (all are advisers to his nonprofit group Project Reason), and though he continues to insist that religious faith is possibly the most destructive force in the world, he shuns the label “atheist.” Harris places reason at the apex of human abilities and achievement, but he concedes that there’s much that humans may never empirically know—like what happens after death. “Mystery,” he wrote in the concluding chapter of The End of Faith, published in 2004, “is ineradicable from our circumstance, because however much we know, it seems like there will always be brute facts that we cannot account for but which we must rely on to explain everything else.” For his praise of the contemplative experience in The End of Faith, Harris has received criticism from atheists.

Harris is in town promoting The Moral Landscape, his new book. Even here, he briefly explores the connections between spiritual experience—especially an experience of selflessness—and human happiness. “I see nothing irrational about seeking the states of mind that lie at the core of many religions. Compassion, awe, devotion and feelings of oneness are surely among the most valuable experiences a person can have,” he writes. Over lunch, he says with a smile how much he looks forward to working on the next project, which will allow him to pull back, after six long years, and focus on things that support human flourishing. “Ecstasy, rapture, bliss, concentration, a sense of the sacred—I’m comfortable with all of that,” says Harris later. “I think all of that is indispensable and I think it’s frankly lost on much of the atheist community.”

The answer to the question “Do you believe in God?” comes down to this: It depends on what you mean by “God.” The God Harris doesn’t believe in is, as he puts it, a “supernatural power” and “a personal deity who hears prayers and takes an interest in how people live.” This God and its subscribers he finds unreasonable. But he understands that many people—especially in progressive corners of organized religion and among the “spiritual but not religious”—often mean something else. They equate God with “love” or “justice” or “singing in church” or “that feeling I get on a walk in the woods,” or even “the awesome aspects of existence I’ll never understand.”

According to a 2008 study by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, a quarter of Americans believe that God is “an impersonal force.” Among Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, and the unaffiliated, the number rises to a third. Among Jews, it’s half. In a Gallup study done in May, 9 percent of respondents said they believe in a God who doesn’t answer prayers.

When polled about God, “people substitute in their own ideas,” says John Green, senior research adviser at Pew. “People have a vague, fuzzy notion of transcendence, and they substitute God for it...When you try to make the definition more specific, fewer people answer in the affirmative.” Or put another way, “If you let the concept of God float a little bit, almost everybody is a theist,” says Stephen Prothero, author of God Is Not One. What Sam Harris believes in—rationality, morality, transcendence, humility, awe, community, selflessness, and love—meets a fairly common definition of God.

Harris says he became interested in spiritual and philosophical questions while an undergraduate at Stanford University. At 18, he experimented with the drug ecstasy and was struck by the possibility that the human mind—his own mind—might be able to achieve a state of loving unselfishness without the help of drugs. So he left college and traveled to India and Nepal, where he studied with Hindu and Buddhist teachers who could help him attain a kind of peace and selflessness through meditation. Over the next 10 years, he read religion and philosophy on his own and spent weeks and months—adding up to two years—in silent retreat.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... light.html


*
Last edited by vanlose kid on Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:45 pm

The doctor's Newsweek article
User avatar
Iamwhomiam
 
Posts: 6572
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby Project Willow » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:54 pm

I hold a mainly materialist view of these experiences for a few reasons, the role of dissociation and cross-cultural comparisons between NDE's. The similarities in cross-cultural NDE's may just as easily be attributed to the common features of dissociation rather than some metaphysical extension of consciousness. The differences reflect the influence of culture and therefore almost certainly originate in the human brain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10841127

Dissociation in people who have near-death experiences: out of their bodies or out of their minds?
Greyson B.
Source
Department of Psychiatric Medicine, University of Virginia Health System, Charlottesville 22908-0152, USA. cbg4d@virginia.edu
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Some people who come close to death report having experiences in which they transcend the boundaries of the ego and the confines of time and space. Such near-death experiences (NDEs) share some features with the phenomenon of dissociation, in which a person's self identity becomes detached from bodily sensation. This study explored the frequency of dissociative symptoms in people who had come close to death.
METHODS:
96 individuals who had had self-reported NDEs, and 38 individuals who had come close to death but who had not had NDEs completed a mailed questionnaire that included a measure of "depth" of near-death experience (the NDE scale) and a measure of dissociative symptoms (the Dissociative Experiences Scale). Median scores in the two groups were compared with Mann-Whitney U tests. The association between depth of NDE and dissociative symptoms was tested by Spearman's rank-order correlation between scores on the NDE scale and the dissociative experiences scale.
FINDINGS:
People who reported NDEs also reported significantly more dissociative symptoms than did the comparison group. Among those who reported NDEs, the depth of the experience was positively correlated with dissociative symptoms, although the level of symptoms was substantially lower than that of patients with pathological dissociative disorders.
INTERPRETATION:
The pattern of dissociative symptoms reported by people who have had NDEs is consistent with a non-pathological dissociative response to stress, and not with a psychiatric disorder. A greater understanding of the mechanism of dissociation may shed further light on near-death and other mystical or transcendental experiences.



http://www.ce.mahidol.ac.th/multi-media/download/sp/sp123.pdf
...
Phenomenological details of NDEs across different cultures are summarized in the Table 1. In comparison with western NDEs, the non-western
NDEs vary in several ways, particularly in the presence of specific
cultural–religious figures and the distinct absence of certain core features
identified in the dominant NDE prototype. There were notable similarities
between the experiences of the Mapuche people and that of Hawaiians,
with both having dominant themes of landmarks such as volcanoes and no
evidence of any life review, or visions of light. There were also similarities
between the experiences reported in Thailand and India where there did
not appear to be any reports of tunnels, landmarks and visions of light. In
addition, there did not appear to be a meeting of deceased acquaintances;
however, a strong presence of religious figures was noted. In the studies and
narratives reviewed, OBE were documented only when a study clearly
described the experience as OBE.
...
TABLE 1
Phenomenology of NDEs

Country; Study; subjects; study Results

Africa; Morse and Perry; 15; Narrative Deceased persons/spirits, out-of-body experience, incorrect person/time,
(1992) highway, stars, negative emotions

China; Zhi-ying and Jian-xun; 81; Retrospective Religious figures – good, evil, deceased persons/spirits,
(1992) visions of landscapes/realms, tunnel, light, estrangement from body,
life review, out-of-body experience, sounds, scents, unusual bodily sensations

Germany; Knoblauch, Schmied; 82; Narrative Heaven, deceased persons, door/gate, positive emotions,
and Schnettler (2001) visions of landscapes/realms, negative emotions, life review

Hawaii; Kellehear (2001); 1; Narrative Deceased persons/spirits, incorrect person/time,
visions of landscapes/realms, flying

India; Pasricha; 16; Prospective Religious figures – good, evil, deceased persons/spirits,
Stevenson (1986) incorrect person/time, residual marks on body
Pasricha (1993) 13; Prospective Religious figures – good, evil, out-of-body experience,
deceased persons/spirits, incorrect person/time, residual marks on body
Pasricha (1995) 16; Prospective Deceased persons/spirits, incorrect person/time, residual marks on body

Israel; Abramovitch (1988); 1 Narrative Out-of-body experience, deceased persons/spirits, incorrect person/time, light
Mapuche Gómez-Jeria (1993) 1 Narrative Deceased persons/spirits, incorrect person/time, door/gate,
visions of landscapes/realms

Native American; Schorer (1985) 2; Narratives Visions of landscapes/realms, out-of-body experience, animals, colour, fire

Netherlands; Lommel, Wees, 62; Prospective Deceased persons/spirits, positive emotions, out-of-body experience, tunnel,
Meyers, and Elfferich light, colours, visions of landscapes/realms, life review
(2001)

Thailand; Murphy (2001); 10; Retrospective Religious figures – good, evil, deceased persons/spirits,
out of body experience, tunnel, hell, incorrect person/time, animals


..........................................

It's difficult to research this subject without encountering the work of former Seattlelite Melvin Morse, who was the subject of this recent headline: Pediatrician accused of ‘waterboarding’ 11-year-old daughter
Previous posts on Morse: http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32959&p=473747&hilit=melvin+morse#p473747

Melvin Morse is the author of “Closer to the Light” and “Transformed by the Light,” both of which recount the experiences of children who had been declared clinically dead. He has been featured as an expert on The Oprah Winfrey Show, Larry King Live and John Stossel’s ABC News special The Power of Belief.


He is also the author of a pamphlet describing how to protect one's children from abuse. Morse deserves his own thread IMO.
User avatar
Project Willow
 
Posts: 4798
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby DrEvil » Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:38 pm

vanlose kid wrote:
DrEvil wrote:...
I think consciousness is a byproduct of society. It's a planning tool to help us navigate our society and maximize personal gain.
Or to put it a different way: If humans were solitary predators I don't think we would be conscious at all. We wouldn't need it.
...


so, when humans got together to form societies consciousness arose as a byproduct? was it because of the gurning they did that speech evolved? wait, consciousness is a tool to help us navigate society, which developed ex nihilo once we got together in societies and realized we needed tools to navigate it.

Or they arose together. As in "complimentary" or "symbiotic".

DrEvil wrote:...
Or to put it a different way: If humans were solitary predators I don't think we would be conscious at all. We wouldn't need it. ...


solitary predators don't need consciousness. look at all the unconscious solitary predators out there in the animal kingdom! see what i mean!?

Can you give me one good reason that a solitary predator should be conscious? (Conscious as in developing language or a culture, not as in "Oh, look. This dolphin can recognize it's own picture".)

DrEvil wrote:...
I think consciousness is subjective. We can't draw objective conclusions from something that is anything but objective. Our brains tell us what we need to hear to cope.
I also firmly believe that consciousness/personality are firmly planted in the grey stuff inside our skulls...


no shit, consciousness is subjective. if we were solitary predators without consciousness we wouldn't draw any damn conclusions anyway, we wouldn't need to. the only reason we draw conclusions (including this one right here!) is because conclusions are a by product of society. they're not really conclusions but kind of like smoke you get when rubber rubs rubber over time. like books and science and shit. objective conclusions and thoughts that are just useless and wouldn't have been around if we were all solitary predators.

not that i'm drawing any conclusions here though, just so you know, i mean i'm conscious which means i'm subjective and i only draw conclusions from the objective, which means that in order to do that i'd have to be unconscious and objective and not conscious and subjective. geddit?

Let me try again: A person experiencing an NDE is having a subjective experience. It proves exactly squat. Just like if I see a UFO - it doesn't prove that UFO's are real.
And of course you, as a subjective person can draw objective conclusions, just not from your own subjective experiences. If I dream that stuff falls down I haven't proved that gravity exists. If I drop an object repeatedly while observing it I can make the fairly objective assumption that gravity is real. Internal vs. External. You can't trust what's going on inside your own head. I thought that would be pretty obvious to most people here by now, considering how many threads have been started on exactly how unreliable our heads are (hypnosis, body displacement, a crap-load of cognitive biases etc.).


so, you know:

DrEvil wrote:... don't take my word for it :)


it might not even be a word at all. right?

The Bird is the Word

*


One last thing, and I'm honestly curious about what people here think: What is consciousness/soul/life force, what is it good for and what kind of mechanism could be used to describe it (scientific, supernatural...)?
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 4159
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:02 pm

What we call self, our mind, our soul, is merely the ethereal being embedded into a human. We are parasites who've mistaken our host for ourselves. I dunno. Go ask Jung, I think he'll know. Alice's left the building.
User avatar
Iamwhomiam
 
Posts: 6572
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:41 am

...

Consciousness is the field in which everything arises and passes away.

Yeah! Thanks Jiddu. Man, you got a way with words.

Blue Sky Thinking!

That's the ticket!

...
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:03 am

...

What is consciousness/soul/life force, what is it good for and what kind of mechanism could be used to describe it (scientific, supernatural...)?


Only the synthetic syncretic synthesis of the integrated integrative intelligence could possibly begin to adequately describe that to which you refer.

If you see what I mean.

All is Thought in the Mind of Man.

But the Phoenix can fly only when its feathers are grown.

...
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Top Neurosurgeon ‘Spent Six Days in Heaven’ During A Com

Postby yathrib » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:48 pm

You can mock my seeming obsession with WIH, but how do we know that the "afterlife" is any different from the beforelife? At the very least, how do we know that people don't get the afterlife they have been conditioned to expect, and that they aren't being manipulated by the same sort of entities that control the matrix on this side?
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst that justice prevail.

If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.
yathrib
 
Posts: 1880
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 11:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 164 guests