New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:48 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:I would add that Anarchism has similar problems. The notion that anyone would advocate or evangelize for Anarchism is comedy -- but at least it's highbrow comedy. It'd be like Militant Taoists (which I'm sure also exist).

I would also add that, in my experience, New Atheists have a very tenuous grip on the science they constantly invoke and are unable to have a conversation outside of a Dawkins FAQ. They are congenitally unable to differentiate actual rigorous criticism of a theory/paradigm from an attack on "Science" as a whole -- because they only dimly understand Science as a whole, as a proper noun, as a totem against Bibles.

As for the bitterness, I think it ties back to not understanding science well enough to build their own worldviews. They know, in their guts, they have just prostrated themselves before a new class of priesthood.

Edit: Having read the Dawkins version of the Bible, The Ancestors Tale, I found it to be equally as convincing as any other Holy Book.


agree re anarchism.

also, there is no such thing as Science as a whole. it's the belief in the existence of Science as a whole, however, that defines the atheist. it is doctrinal.

in the phrase "militant-atheist" militant is redundant.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:50 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:great posts... a pleasure to read everyone's thoughts/experiences.
I'd add that one of the major problems I (and my husband the atheist now moving towards agnostic) have is this notion that atheism is a 'cause.'
A cause? Really?


Atheism certainly is a cause as long as children are indoctrinated in death-worship and fundamentalist religion, as long as they are threatened and traumatized with visions of eternal hell if they do not conform to arbitrary beliefs, as long as churches use these doctrines as a means of exploiting and oppressing followers, as long as people who are the same are set at each others' throats because of supposed religious differences, as long as as long as churches marshal resources to deny the freedoms and rights of others, as long as "god" is used as an instrument of hate, and as long as politicians are required to profess that they take their lead from this fictional being or have no chance of being elected.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:55 pm

Jack: is there any evidence that the worldview of Catholics is more/less destructive and unfair than the worldview advanced by Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens?

I'd like to think that a case could be made, but I don't see how.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:00 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:I would also add that, in my experience, New Atheists have a very tenuous grip on the science they constantly invoke and are unable to have a conversation outside of a Dawkins FAQ. They are congenitally unable to differentiate actual rigorous criticism of a theory/paradigm from an attack on "Science" as a whole -- because they only dimly understand Science as a whole, as a proper noun, as a totem against Bibles.


Yeah, now this IS what I have found, in significant samples in both RL and online (the JREF crowd). There's little ability to distinguish between science as method, science as a set of findings, science as a community, science as an exploitable concept, science as a wide range of disciplines at very different levels of development and understanding, etc. (in this they are no different than genpop, of course.) This is encouraged by the leading exponents like Dawkins, who have a particular vulgar-deterministic agenda within science and wish to invalidate all other approaches. This is a bane on free thought.

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Jack: is there any evidence that the worldview of Catholics is more/less destructive and unfair than the worldview advanced by Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens?

I'd like to think that a case could be made, but I don't see how.


Whatever has made you think I'm here to defend them? I wanted a thread to lay out my problem -- as an atheist, which means simply someone with no "god" as these in the main are defined -- with Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens, Harris et al. These guys are detaching free thinking and skepticism from a liberationist tradition and bolting it on to the present status quo, including its Global War On Terror, as a means of justifying it through vulgar materialism. At the same time they're exploiting the very real problem of Endarkenment that perpetually engulfs the culture (attempts to turn public schools into religious indoctrination centers, attacks on the rights of women and gays, etc. etc.) by setting themselves up as the genuine resistance. You're either with them or against evolution.

..........

(general msg)

I wish if people want to participate in this thread they would at least read the OP. Since that was sort of the point of making it the OP. (If it's too long for you, then maybe you should skip the thread.)
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:03 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Jack: is there any evidence that the worldview of Catholics is more/less destructive and unfair than the worldview advanced by Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens?

I'd like to think that a case could be made, but I don't see how.


of course there is.

atheists believe in science. catholics believe in god. QED.
atheists kill for perfectly rational reasons based on moral reasoning of the highest order. catholics believe in god. QED...


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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:29 pm

Some useful history...



http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/09/ ... eism/print

April 09, 2012

Can Non-Belief Become Mainstream?
The Weaponization of Atheism


by JEFF SPARROW


In a few days time, the Global Atheist Convention meets in the Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Centre, a huge building sprawling out next to the Yarra River, just south of the central business district of Australia’s second biggest city.

But walk north for fifteen minutes or so to Victoria Street, Fitzroy, and you’ll find a much less imposing structure with a much older connection to atheism.

From the outside, there’s little to show that what’s now called Brenan Hall, a brick building in the St Vincent’s Hospital site, was once known, rather grandly, as the Hall of Science. Few Melbournians realise that their city boasts one of the second oldest purpose-built Freethought halls in the world, a meeting place constructed by the Australasian Secular Association in 1889.

As non-believers from around the globe come to Melbourne, the Hall of Science reminds us of the city’s long atheist history. But it does more than that. On this spot in June 1890, a man was shot, as a struggle over the direction of Freethought broiled over into a violent brawl. And that long-forgotten conflict over the politics of skepticism has major implications for today.

Both supporters and critics of the New Atheism often tell us that non-belief today is more strident, more aggressive, more polemical than in the past.

They’re wrong, as even a brief acquaintance with nineteenth century Freethought shows.

In Melbourne, a versifier expressed the ASA’s general approach in its journal, the Liberator:

From Pagan Rome and Christian Rome,
To our bright and fair Australia,
Religion’s ever been a cruel
And bloody Saturnalia.

The breezy consignment of the city’s respectable Presbyterians to a category alongside Caligula and Nero reflects an organisation not given to pulling punches.

Joseph Symes, the ASA’s leader, specialized in Hitchens-like confrontations with the pious. We have a record of one Symes lecture entitled ‘Bible Lies’ (a chronicle of the various deceptions pulled by the Lord on his long-suffering followers); on another occasion, he used data from recent archaeological digs (he was a keen amateur scientist) to lampoon scriptural history. Later in his career, Symes embraced pure provocation, bringing slices of bread to meetings so he could, as he announced, ‘have a chew on the body of Christ’.

Atheists back then were as forthright as atheists today. The real difference lies elsewhere. Today, we can identify an atheism that’s not so much militant as weaponised – that is, deployed, all too often, in the service of the extreme Right.

The late Christopher Hitchens provides the most obvious example, a celebrity atheist as famous for boosting wars as for baiting clerics.

Liberal admirers often mentally separated the atheistic Hitchens from the political Hitchens but in reality the two personas were inseparable. When, notoriously, he lauded Bush’s cluster bombs, he did so – typically – by combining his two passions. ‘Those steel pellets will go straight through somebody,’ he chuckled, ‘and out the other side and through somebody else. So they won’t be able to say, “Ah, I was bearing a Koran over my heart and guess what, the missile stopped halfway through.” No way, ’cause it’ll go straight through that as well. They’ll be dead, in other words.’

Because Hitchens was so rhetorically intemperate (recall his attack on the Dixie Chicks as ‘sluts’, his description of the war widow Cindy Sheehan as a ‘sob sister’ and so on); because, as Corey Robin says, he often evinced ‘a cruelty and bloodlust, a thrill for violence and apocalyptic confrontation, an almost sociopathic indifference to the victims of that violence and confrontation’ (witness, for instance, his reaction to the Fallujah offensive, his cry ‘the death toll is not nearly high enough … too many [jihadists] have escaped’); he was treated indulgently, even by liberals, as New Atheism’s mad uncle, whose uglier outbursts could excused on the grounds of his very eccentricity.

But his weaponised atheism was no anomaly.

Attendees at the convention can, after all, hear much the same thing from Sam Harris, another of the so-called ‘Four Horsemen’. Harris, like Hitchens, thinks that atheists have a special insight into the war on terror, which should, he says, understood as a conflict against ‘a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise’. Most liberals, he continues, fail to understand ‘how dangerous and depraved our enemies in the Muslim world are’. Indeed, ‘the people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists.’

Harris calls himself a liberal but his positions on Islam are to the Right of any Australian parliamentarians, with the possible exception of Cory Bernardi, a notorious conservative crank.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, another conference speaker, carves out similar territory.

‘We are at war with Islam,’ she says bluntly. ‘And there’s no middle ground in wars.’

Elsewhere, Hirsi Ali, a fellow at the neonconservative American Enterprise Institute, explained the home front consequences of that total war.

‘All Muslim schools. Close them down. Yeah, that sounds absolutist. I think 10 years ago things were different, but now the jihadi genie is out of the bottle.’

Again, it’s the sort of stuff you’d expect to hear from Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer or other sinister representatives of the so-called ‘counter-jihad’ movement.

Such is weaponised atheism: arguments for war and state repression, tricked out as scepticism.

Obviously, not all speakers at the Global Atheist Convention are Hitchensian warmongers. Many denounced the invasion of Iraq. Some oppose the worst excesses of Islamophobia and have the grace to find the polemical excesses of Harris et al somewhat embarrassing.

Nonetheless, the fact remains: leading representatives of the movement express ideas that otherwise we’d associate with the hard Right – and are celebrated for doing so. This is a phenomenon that requires some explanation.

Again, a comparison with the past is instructive.

In the late nineteenth century, religiousity formed the fabric of daily life. Of necessity, the ASA duly offered a secular alternative to familiar Christian rituals, with Symes prompting his followers through a materialist catechism (‘What is science?’ he asked, to which the congregations dutifully chorused: ‘Truth’.) He taught children at a Sunday lyceum, leading them off for excursions with their freethought banners unfurled. ‘It was a picnic in itself,’ gloated the Liberator, chronicling one of those trips, ‘to watch the horrified looks of some of the pious folk as the wagons passed down Brighton Road’.

In other words, while, doctrinally Symes might have shared Hirsi Ali’s hostility to religion, the persecuted ASA could never have adopted her police-state policiies to Muslim schools in Australia because, to all intents and purposes, it was a Muslim school in Australia – organizationally and socially a fringe sect, proselytizing ideas that the mainstream found foreign and threatening.

For atheists back then, state power was obviously problematic, if only because they were usually facing its sharp end. For example, Cole’s Wharf, located only a block or so from where today’s atheists will convene, once provided an unofficial free speech forum, a rare oasis in the desert of Melbourne’s conformity. But when Symes began drawing crowds there, the authorities closed the stumps down. That was why the Hall of Science became necessary: as architectural historian Kerry Jordan explains, the ASA ‘found it difficult to rent premises for their meetings because of their notoriety and opposition to contemporary moral standards.’ The Liberator was singled out for prosecution under the Newspaper Act and regularly seized and burnt by customs officials, while Symes was denounced in the press as a ‘leprous reptile’. Even the Field Naturalists’ Club of Victoria blacklisted him.

The weaponisation of atheism, then, becomes a possibility only with the mainstreaming of non-belief. In the nineteenth century, religious skepticism in Australia barred you from polite society, so that, of necessity, nineteenth century secularists rubbed shoulders with dissidents and non-conformists in a fraternity of the poor and the marginalised. Today, in most circumstances, no-one cares that you don’t believe in God. The Prime Minister is an atheist; in some professions – say, higher education or the arts – it’s considerably easier to be a sceptic than a believer (see many head scarves on Australian TV?). As Sikivu Hutchinson points out, the front ranks of New Atheism consists almost exclusively of ‘elite white males from the scientific community’, a fact that, in and of itself, speaks to the social acceptance of non-belief, at least in the prestigious universities.

These days, it is religion, not atheism, that correlates with poverty. Within Australia, the most fervent believers often belong to immigrant communities; across the world, religion dominates in impoverished states in sub-Saharan Africa and Asia.

That’s a substantive social shift, and it has obvious consequences for the political orientation of atheism.

But there’s more going on than that.

On 19 June 1890, a group of secularists stormed Melbourne’s Hall of Science and barricaded themselves inside.

Shortly after midnight, another group, led by Symes himself, arrived and fought their way through the doors. After a bloody punch-up, they physically expelled their opponents – and then posted armed guards to keep them away.

A few days later, one of those defenders took out his revolver to clean it. The gun accidentally discharged. The bullet struck a man called William Jackson Brown; he died the next day.

That tragedy didn’t stop the secular in-fighting. Several times over the next year, crowds of freethinkers – sometimes numbering as many as thousand people – gathered at the Hall for prolonged scuffles over its possession.

The anti-Symesites eventually prevailed but their victory proved largely pyrrhic. The divided movement could no longer fund the building’s upkeep – and the prize possession of the movement was forcibly sold, with ownership eventually passing, with tragic irony, to a Catholic-run hospital.

What was the dispute about?

The ASA was initially a very broad organisation, and included in its ranks radicals of all sorts. For a while, those differences could be subsumed into its struggle for freedom of speech. The ASA played, for instance, an important role in the campaign to force open the Public Library on a Sunday, in defiance of strict religious rules that public institutions remained closed on the only day working people might access them.

But the length and intensity of such fights spurred some in the ASA to move left.

At one of the trials of anti-Sabbatarians (yes, secularists actually went to gaol for the right to library access in Melbourne!), a police witness noted a new phenomenon.

‘They don’t confine themselves to the Public Library at all, your worship …’ he said, ‘but they denounce capitalists and even magistrates, your worship.’

These ASA activists increasingly identified the church as merely one amongst many institutions maintaining an oppressive status quo. As one of them declared, ‘Secularism has outlived its usefulness. Our hope … [lies] in Anarchy which is based on rebellion against authority.’

The formation in 1886 of the Melbourne Anarchist Club by ASA members dramatically heightened tensions within Australian freethought, particularly in the context of the massive social polarisations. In 1889, the Maritime Dispute shut down Melbourne and prompted a huge rally on the Yarra Bank, which was very nearly fired on by mounted police. The next year, the shearers strike left the nation on the brink of a civil war, while the world plunged into the deepest economic depression it had hitherto known.

The ASA’s Left began leading Occupy Wall Street style marches through the city, burning government officials in effigy and chanting rude songs about them. Symes, on the other hand, opposed the strikes. Essentially a pre-socialist liberal, his notion of liberty meant, first and foremost, freedom to think. From his perspective, social upheavals were, at best, a distraction from the progress of science and, at worst, a manifestation of incipient barbarism. Increasingly, he turned his polemical powers, like Hitchens denouncing anti-war protesters, on those he called ‘the washed off filth of the association, collected in the Anarchist slough’.

Why should anyone care about an obscure debate amongst minor organisations from long ago?

Because the emergence of Left tendencies in the ASA was indicative of how, all across the world in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century, liberal atheism was challenged by a new, more social orientation as labour activists turned, in Marx’s phrase, ‘the criticism of Heaven […] into the criticism of Earth.’ In a few decades time, the Russian revolution cemented an association between atheism and social reform, to the extent that, for many reactionaries, ‘godless’ and ‘commie’ became almost synonymous.

Of course, liberal and even rightwing versions of atheism persisted. But the existence of sizeable left-wing organisations committed to a broadly Marxist approach exerted a huge influence on the politics of atheism in the twentieth century.

That’s the context for the New Atheism, ‘new’ precisely because it emerged only after the traditional Left had more or less collapsed. Its novelty consisted largely of its separation from the communism that had more-or-less owned the movement throughout the twentieth century. In place of that Leftism, the New Atheism repackaged, for a new audience, the nineteenth century liberal positivism that freethinkers like Symes had espoused.

But, of course, the new context made all the difference.

For a start, the New Atheism was turbocharged by 9/11. The heightened, hysterical climate in the immediate aftermath of the terror attacks produced some bizarre publishing phenomena – obscure academic studies of the Taliban, for instance, suddenly featured in bestselling lists. Atheist polemics achieved an equal prominence precisely because they provided a simple answer to the newly urgent question that so many anguished pundits posed: why do Muslims hate us?

Again, the political consequences of that particular conjuncture are fairly obvious. Though few care to remember it now, in the early phases of the War on Terror, some of the loudest voices touting for regime change came from so-called liberals, often deploying tropes associated with the social movements and the New Left. Thus the invasion of Afghanistan – as ludicrous as it now seems – was initially shilled, at least in part, as a campaign to liberate women and homosexuals.

Atheism was used in the same fashion. Hitchens, in particular, transformed himself from midlist radical journalist to international celebrity by spinning Bush’s military adventures as a war of liberal tolerance against theocratic backwardness, a claim that, in retrospect, seems almost embarrassingly stupid.

But there were particular reasons why the New Atheist approach was so susceptible to Hitchens’ appropriation. Symes’ project, as we have seen, began and ended with an expose of religious fallacies. For him, as for the New Atheists today, religion was first and foremost a system of ideas – ‘ignorance with wings’, as Sam Harris says. Symes’ project, then, began and ended with its exposing religious fallacies. For if theological ideas were shown to be false, rational and intelligent people would surely abandon their beliefs.

But consider the corollary. If religion is an intellectual doctrine and nothing more than that, the persistence with which so many cling to God faith becomes explicable only in terms of their congenital inability to reason. Or, to put it another way, if religion is purely and simply a fairy tale, then ipso facto those who cling to it are little better than children.

The smugness that so often accompanies New Atheist interventions is not, then, accidental but is bred into the movement’s DNA. Symes rejected the activism of the ASA’s Left explicitly because to him the masses were, at best, dullards. It was very incapacity of ordinary people that made, he said, socialism impossible. ‘The strong, the cunning, the swift … must survive, while the weak, the slow, the dull and those with no artificial advantage must of necessity go to the wall — yes, the brutal truth bids me say, they must be stamped out.’

Back then, Symes’ overt elitism was largely kept in check by his organisation’s marginalisation, since his denunciations were, of necessity, usually directed at powerful clerics and politicians rather than ordinary believers. The New Atheists today find themselves in a rather different position. There’s an obvious rightward dynamic in tremendously wealthy authors (‘Sam’s fee is $25,000 which includes airfare.’) regaling audiences of the well-educated and the well-to-do about the ignorance and stupidity of immigrants and the poor.

Moreover, the West’s engagement with Muslim countries over the last decade provides a context in which the weaponisation of atheism becomes almost inevitable.

The traditional Left approach to belief begins with a recognition that religion is not simply a set of ideas. Religion is a cultural identity; it’s also simultaneously an aesthetic, a system of feeling, a guide to social and sexual conduct, an organizational framework and many other things besides. These different functions contradict and complement each other in all sorts of ways.

That’s why the same holy texts can, in different social settings, give rise to entirely different behaviours and attitudes; it’s why both the Anabaptists and Pat Robertson can claim inspiration from the New Testament.

If, then, you wanted to understand the role of religion in Iraq or Afghanistan, simply assessing the truth claims in the Koran does not get you very far – indeed, in some ways, it’s almost a category error. Islam, like all religions, functions on many different levels. It offers, for instance, meaning to people subjected to death and suffering often inflicted by the advanced countries of the West. It provides charity where no social services exist; it gives voice to nationalist resistance in nations where the secular Left was widely discredited by its Stalinism. And it does many other things besides.

Even put as schematically as that, the argument suggests a particular political response. Atheists and others seeking to fostering secularism in the Arab world might do so by, first and foremost, ending the military interventions that have brought so much suffering.

If, on the other hand, religion is seen simply as a dangerous fairy story, then it’s almost inevitable that the fervent believers of Afghanistan are cast as menacing infants – a trope that reiterates, almost exactly, Kipling’s high imperialist image as the subjects of empire as ‘half devil and half child’. Hence the neocon temptation into which so many New Atheists fall, the conviction that military force is morally justified to free the savages from their own delusions, much as the British empire justified its depredations by contrasting Western science with the natives’ pagan superstitions.

Anti-Muslim writers commonly declare that Islam needs its own reformation.

But that’s a charge that should really be leveled at atheism, a movement that urgently needs the kind of political polarization that separated the Right from the Left in the ASA of 1890.

For, at present, the loudest voices speaking on behalf of atheism trot out a crude nineteenth century positivism, a rewarmed (but far more conservative) version of Symes’ freethought. Meanwhile, the atheist Left seems entirely silent. Where, for instance, are the interventions from progressives as the Global Atheist Convention conducts a session lauding Hitchens’ career under the title ‘A Life Well Lived’? Will anyone point out that the author of God is Not Great devoted his well-lived life to apologetics for a military campaign that led to the deaths of perhaps a million people? For progressives, should the devastation of Iraq not matter at least as much as Hichens’ reputation as a witty conversationalist?

A few weeks ago, the editor of the New York Times editorial page noted that the US effectively now runs an entirely separate judicial system for Muslims. Meanwhile, across Europe, neo-fascist organisations, some of them with lineages stretching back to the Nazis, supplement their traditional anti-Semitism with a new anti-Muslim bigotry. It’s a heartbreaking historical tragedy that, with prejudice rising throughout the world, the loudest voices in a movement that once campaigned for liberty uses a rhetoric indistinguishable from the hatemongers and the racists.

But it’s not just that atheism has a Muslim problem (though it clearly does).

In the US, the Republicans have launched a savage war on women’s reproductive rights, an assault justified in religious rhetoric. How, then, should the Left respond?

We could, perhaps, reply to the bishops who denounce birth control by simply declaring anyone who identifies with Catholicism as an ignorant hick.

On the other hand, we might note that, precisely because religion is a contradictory social phenomenon, the vast majority of those who call themselves Catholics actively flout the Pope’s rulings about sex, something that provides scope for a common front against the Right. Indeed, any successful movement against the war on women will, almost by definition, involve those who consider themselves believers.

That doesn’t mean that leftwing atheists should hide their views about God. It’s simply that say that we’re far more likely to win people from religion by working alongside them against the forces of oppression in this world – and thus showing them in practice that religious consolations aren’t necessary – rather than by dismissing them as dupes and stooges.

If religion is a social phenomenon, it will persist so long as social conditions render it necessary. That’s why the defeat of the atheist Right, and the revival of an atheist Left, matters so much. Denouncing God is easy. What’s harder – and much more important – is creating a world that no longer has need of Him.

Jeff Sparrow is the editor of Overland magazine and the author of Killing: Misadventures in Violence.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby DrVolin » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:34 pm

I don't worry much about whether people believe in deities. I am much more concerned with the observable consequences of their moral systems, whatever they may be.
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

--Guns and Roses
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:39 pm

DrVolin wrote:I don't worry much about whether people believe in deities. I am much more concerned with the observable consequences of their moral systems, whatever they may be.


I don't worry much about whether people are atheist. I am much more concerned with the observable consequences of their moral systems, whatever they may be.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby undead » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:51 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:I would add that Anarchism has similar problems. The notion that anyone would advocate or evangelize for Anarchism is comedy -- but at least it's highbrow comedy. It'd be like Militant Taoists (which I'm sure also exist).


Anarchism does have similar problems because it affirms and focuses on a negative - lack of government - which is really a lot more ridiculous because government certainly does exist and basically always has. Even if you go far enough back in evolutionary history to before the advent of organized social groups, there was always copious amounts of patriarchy, homophobia, racism, and rampant violence, all of which the better strains of anarchism are concerned with eliminating. The closest thing that to an anarchist utopia that (might have) ever existed was probably a matriarchal society based on fertility worship, which is at odds with the atheism of most hardcore anarchists.

To me the materialistic viewpoint of militant anarchism makes it primarily about, again, egotistical self-gratification. That is to say making a show of appearing to resist, feeling like you are resisting, drinking coffee and getting drunk while living in squats, listening to mostly terrible music devoid of artistic value, and eventually developing an alcohol or other substance abuse problem. And ultimately they assume the posture of crucifying themselves in the name of (supposedly) creating a better world, which is the epitome of the slave mentality of the Christian religion. I'm not saying that all anarchists are like this but this is certainly a common path for the more angry, bitter, and alienated ones.

Regarding militant Taoists - of course there are militant Taoists. They practice Tai Chi Chuan, the martial form of Tai Chi. Kung Fu also falls under the cultural umbrella of Taoism, and although it is more militant in the physical sense it seems to me that Tai Chi Chuan is much more militant in the esoteric sense, but this is a debate for more learned people than any of us here, who wouldn't bother to descend to the level of quibbling about the existence of God.

If the anti-establishment types had more people doing this kind of thing we would be in much better shape - physically, socially, and economically.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:52 pm

here's a great piece of erudite atheist rationality, airtight logic, and exemplary moral reasoning.
be sure to check the wonderful comments at link.

A woman’s war

The armed intervention by the US (with NATO) in the erstwhile communist and disintegrating state of Yugoslavia at the end of the last century, was probably the most unjustifiable war America ever waged.

Why did the US expend blood and treasure where absolutely no interest of its own was involved? Why did it go to the aid of the Muslims of Bosnia, and protect – as it still does – assorted Muslim terrorist gangs in Kosovo? True the Serb leader Slobodan Milosevic was a nasty man, but he wasn’t harming America or Americans. And as brutes in power go, he fell well short of the standard set by Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Funny that the left was so against Saddam being overthrown by US arms, yet so ardently for the overthrow of Milosevic.

Now at last comes an answer to “why?”. A revelation. And it should be enough to make the most hawkish of us blush.

According to Samuel Mikolaski, whose article appears today at American Thinker, the answer is: because President Clinton’s Secretary of State Madeleine Albright hated the Serbs.

At least “in part” it was her “vitriolic, personal hatred of Serbs” that “facilitated” Clinton’s decision to “import Al Qaeda from Afghanistan into Bosnia”, and “skewed our foreign policy”.

Not since Helen of Troy had a woman’s emotion made nation go to war against nation. (Same part of the world, but a different sort of woman, and an opposite emotion.)

Samuel Mikolaski was born in the Balkans and grew up in Canada. He is a retired professor of theology, so understandably distressed by the “destruction and desecration of literally hundreds of churches, monasteries, cemeteries and other Christian landmarks, some of which are medieval treasures” by the Muslims to whom Kosovo has now been handed over (by the self-described Christian West!). “There are,” he writes, “more churches, monasteries and other Christian landmarks per square kilometer in Kosovo than anywhere else on earth”, because “Kosovo is to Serbian Orthodox Christians what Canterbury is to Anglicans and the Vatican to Roman Catholics.”

Although we don’t share the professor’s religious sensibilities, we do deplore the vandalism and philistinism. But the far greater outrage is the handing over of European territory to Muslim control.

There [was not] even a hint of anxiety or regret [on Clinton's part] at what his importing of Al Qaeda into Bosnia was causing as they settled down, married Bosnian women, and began the process of imposing Islamic radicalism on Bosnia, which had become significantly secular since the expulsion of the Ottomans from Europe after World War I.

From Bosnia and Kosovo we now have one of the largest and most virulent drug cartels in the world, the worst of white slavery and prostitution trafficking into Europe, and terrorist training compounds. (Several of the 9/11 hijackers spent time in Bosnia among their Al Qaeda compatriots.) …

It is scarcely credible, but nevertheless true, that the Clinton Administration ignored the Islamic Declaration by Alija Izetbegović, former president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in which he clearly urged Islamists in Bosnia and worldwide to take up jihad against the West. Instead they regarded him as “their boy,” ignoring the proliferating terrorist cells in Bosnia. …

The latest bombshell is the Council of Europe’s recently adopted report… that Kosovo leaders, including Prime Minister Hashim Thaci, are complicit in crime, including organ trafficking. There is now a strenuous effort to sweep the body parts issue under the rug lest it torpedo efforts to legitimize the illegally mandated separation of Kosovo from Serbia. The data are horrific: Serbian captive youths were selected on the basis of genetic compatibility for killing in order to harvest saleable body parts. … But there is an insuperable obstacle to effective judicial proceedings: Kosovo is tiny, and it is almost impossible to shelter witnesses, should they come forward. Testifying would mean signing a death warrant against oneself and one’s entire family. …


Apart from which, a self-imposed code of “omerta” has been adopted throughout Europe (and in America by the Obama administration), with regard to Islam: a state of affairs commented on by one of the world’s foremost authorities on Islam, Bernard Lewis, in a passage quoted at the end of the article:

[There is now] a degree of thought control and limitations of freedom of expression without parallel in the Western world since the 18th century … Islam and Islamic values now have a level of immunity from comment and criticism in the Western world that Christianity has lost and Judaism has never had.


Which provokes another “why?”.

http://theatheistconservative.com/2011/ ... omans-war/


only atheists are capable of independent thought. that's indisputably axiomatic. ask any atheist.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby 82_28 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:08 pm

From a very young age (talking pre 10 years old) I always resented being taught that what I did as a kid and if I didn't accept Jesus into my heart I was awaiting an eternity in hell. It dawned on me and I couldn't get my mind off it after church being with my family in the car that if we died on the way home in a car accident that my entire family would go to heaven and I would be the only one to go to hell. Then I started rebelling. Then my parents took me to have "one on ones" with the church pastor and shit. My whole deal was that I DIDN'T KNOW if Jesus or God was REAL or not. And not knowing made me fucking anxious as fuck.

Then I realized that what kind of a bullshit doctrine is this? Again, a very young age. Why would you make a child think that if he/she doesn't do this, that and that you will be eternally punished? Why do we make others anxious. I began asking questions within myself and wound up going atheist. Hardcore. One of the first in this society, I would say and at my age who proudly wore it on my sleeve.

The day I made the break from my family and then also, by way of which, they kinda followed me along out of evangelical fundie bullshit was when one morning while still in HS my dad strolled past the bathroom I was in and heard me cursing the shower water that got painfully hot.

I was all like "goddammit. fuck. what the fuck. Fuck this fucking goddamn shit" etc. (You all know me!) :wink

When I was done with the shower my dad comes to me and says, "You cannot be taking the Lord's name in vain in this house."

I said, "The fuck I can. If I was speaking Chinese in that shower, you wouldn't have even known what the fuck I was saying. It still would have been the same curses. You just wouldn't have known. You would have asked me, so are you learning Chinese?".
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby brekin » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:40 pm

My 3 cents. I think at the core humans are faith based, must believe and act, with only limited information. So Progress is a god, Science is a god, Rationalism is a god, Liberalism is a god, Atheism is a god, Mathematics is a god, Evolution is a god, and so on, and the Zeus they all bow to is the god Truth, which we all believe speaks just to us and whatever priests and priestesses in white we worship who have the answer(s). It is quite easy to become fanatical and rabid about anything that appears to explain the sliver of reality we inhabit. Obviously not all gods are equal all the time, and science or mathematics is much more verifiable and efficient in the beginning, but I have much respect for those who admit that after a certain point it all gets fuzzy. I've known many logical empiricists who attracted to the clarity of physics, math, law, etc have a crisis, yes a crisis of faith, when they begin to find after a certain point it all starts sounding like a Dwayne Dwyer seminar. Or even todays truths will be discarded for new truths when new evidence shows up. I for one believe in mysteries and remind myself that everything, mathematics, law, psychology, etc came out of religion and superstition and will probably return from time to time.

I can understand the appeal of Atheism for those who have been subjected to the belief in certain implausible sky gods by others, but I sometimes think that many atheists I have met are just wounded reactionists. I believe Anne Rice said something along the lines it wasn't the matter that people don't believe in God anymore, but more that they are mad he doesn't exist. For me I look at it as all metaphorical. And while I wince at the idea of a big white bearded man on a throne in the clouds sending his son down to earth to be sacrificed, there is value I think in the belief of non human "higher powers". And much more significant "mysteries". I use to get the Humanist newsletter and while I'm inclined to be more pragmatically inclined to their orientation, their message of doing good just "because we should" is really not as compelling compared to a value system that imposes a value system on humanity from an outside higher power.

You remove God and the first thing people do is they elevate a human and worship them as a living god. And the most non religious scientific based belief systems such as Russian and Chinese Communism bear this out while bringing reigns of terror as bad as any crusade or inquisition down.

Ultimately, though, to me the whole matter of atheism is a bit moot at this point. Ironically, by trying to separate religion from science we've technologically gotten to the point where we are at the point and getting past it quickly where the gods and monsters of myth are now being created. I am going to be the asshole when all humans are ruled over by some immortal, omnipotent lightning bolt throwing Donald Trump humanoid who lives in his space penthouse, that asks all the atheists "So you don't believe in God huh?"
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby Elvis » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:08 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
Elvis wrote:About that comic:
divideandconquer wrote:as funny as he is, he's very serious to the point of being almost bitter.

Right---why are many really strident atheists so bitter?


Excuse me, but this is a set of automatic stereotype codewords, has nothing to do with Gervais or his quote. divideandconquer does not engage the material, merely makes an ad hominem on the speaker on the basis of a personal impression. (Omg, he's serious! Must be bitter!) Elvis, you just add "strident," another standard from the vocabulary of avoiding the issue by labeling the speaker.


Codeword? Come on, now. Strident is an accurate descriptor, in that context of my own experience. And I'll butt out now, not having read the whole OP article.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:40 pm

pseudo-religious death worshipping atheists. who'd a thunk?

Atheism and Meaning

“Atheism... has generally taught that both individual human beings and (eventually) humanity as a whole have no purpose in the universe, and that they will be definitively annihilated in the course of time...”

Religious belief has traditionally provided human beings with a reason to think that their individual lives have a purpose, and that the existence of humanity as such has a purpose. Atheism, on the contrary, has generally taught that both individual human beings and (eventually) humanity as a whole have no purpose in the universe, and that they will be definitively annihilated in the course of time (human beings after their short spans of life, humanity - at latest - when the earth finally becomes uninhabitable). In the light of this prima facie deeply depressing prospect, the question of life's meaning or purpose within atheism has posed a peculiarly difficult challenge to atheists since the origins of modern atheism in the seventeenth century.

Religious believers have traditionally not been slow to point out that atheism must lead to despair, since it deprives humans of the hope that injustices in this life will be corrected in the next, and frustrates what would appear to be their natural desire to live forever. It also frustrates humans' hope that reality is fundamentally good rather than bad or indifferent with respect to them, and deprives them of any genuine motivation to act in the world.

To these objections atheists have firstly generally responded (quite reasonably) that even if all this were true, these unfortunate consequences would not disprove atheism. However, atheists have differed significantly on the further question of whether it is actually true that these consequences would indeed follow as alleged by their religious objectors.

Some atheists have taken a relatively upbeat attitude to the consequences for meaning and purpose of atheist beliefs. The eighteenth century atheist La Mettrie, for example, proposed that the fear of death arose only from the religious belief in afterlife punishments, and claimed that thoroughly discrediting this idea would free human beings of an exaggerated anxiety about death.[1] Many atheists have also appealed to the (ultimately Epicurean) argument that death has no significance for human beings, since by definition they cannot be there to experience it. D'Holbach, for example, stressed that for these reasons death should not be a cause for anxiety.[2]

There are numerous contemporary defenders of this position. The philosophical atheist Michael Martin, for example, may also be said to share this relative optimism. Martin points out that human beings find individual projects intrinsically meaningful regardless of whether their lives as a whole are meaningful (which the atheist must admit they are not). Similarly evidence that the sum total of human achievement will be annihilated in the heat death of the universe, as is supposed to be highly probable on current physical predictions, does not make present human cultural achievements meaningless for us now. For so long as we are here they are meaningful. Martin appeals to the fact that there are happy and fulfilled atheists as evidence for this. Adopting a detached 'God's eye' view on things from where the sum of human activity can be seen to be meaningless is just one perspective humans can take up towards things, but humans are not obliged to adopt this perspective rather than the ordinary (meaningful) one, and they therefore need not become despondent.[3]

However, it is probably fair to say that it has generally been admitted among the majority of thinking atheists that the fear of annihilation could not be so easily set aside. Claude-Adrien Helvetius (1715-1771) and Denis Diderot (1713-84) admitted that the consequences of a consistent atheism were depressing, and they sought comfort in ersatz forms of survival, such as species survival. Diderot, for example, affirmed that the individual perishes, but the species has no end[/b].[4]

[b]One might include Marxist 'scientific atheism', Social Darwinism and reformist secular humanism of a Dawkinsian sort as forms of atheism that attempt to address the problem of meaninglessness by promoting faith in an ersatz form of survival.
That is, in the two former cases, species survival and its progressive perfection, albeit to be achieved in quite different ways. In the latter case, the progressive improvement of the human condition would be achieved through the weakening of the influence of religion.

But many atheists - particularly those most preoccupied with the consequences of atheistic belief for individuals as opposed to societies - regarded appeals to such survival substitutes as ultimately a form of self- deception, and sought other solutions to the problem. Étienne de Senancour (1770-1846), for example, regarded the only solution to the problem of mortality in healing humans from the 'illness' of wishing for immortality. According to Senancour, one can only suppress this fear by applying all one's energy to the present life.[5]

De Sade took this idea of immersion in the immediacy of present life a step further. Dismissing the wish for immortality as a contemptible urge, he advocated complete absorption in sensuality, the repeated pleasure of sex, inflicting suffering and even death, as a means of extinguishing the fear of mortality through forgetfulness in the fullness of the senses.[6]

Nietzsche, like De Sade, also suggests a fundamental affirmation of the natural urges (the 'will to power') against Christian 'slave' morality as the proper response to the question of meaning. Nietzsche's affirmation of power and its exercise by the (by our standards) amoral superman creates meaning where it is not previously given. Similarly, existentialists such as Sartre in the twentieth century affirm that human beings find themselves in a meaningless ('absurd') world and need to create meaning and purpose in their lives in absolute freedom, since there is no pre-existent meaning or purpose to life.

Still more depressingly, perhaps, other atheists sought to extinguish the fear of annihilation by stressing the generally miserable nature of human existence and thus encouraging detachment from life and even hopeful anticipation of death as a long awaited rest from the burden of living. Nicolas de Chamfort (1741-1794), for example, described life as an illness, for which death was the 'medication'. According to this particular eighteenth century atheist, life was a prolonged agony from which death could liberate those unfortunate enough to have been born. Chamford himself acted on his beliefs by finally committing suicide.[7] Nor was Chamford a lone voice: in other respects optimistic atheists such as Diderot, Charles Pinot Duclos (1704-72) and Helvetius also in certain moments stressed the virtues of contemplating the relative wretchedness of existence in order to lessen the fear of annihilation.[8]

In the despairing individualist atheism of Schopenhauer, Stirner and von Hartmann this strategy is taken a step further. Schopenhauer unequivocally describes the wretched nature of human existence and places his hope in the will to annihilation. It would have been better if human beings had never been born, but given that they have come into existence suicide remains a legitimate (or perhaps even desirable) option. In Hartmann's Philosophy of the Unconscious (1869) his profoundly dispiriting atheistic philosophy finishes with a call for the collective suicide of humanity. In his The Self-Destruction of Chrisitanity and the Religion of the Future (1874), Hartman predicts that humanity will come to a collective realisation of the futility of their atheistic fate, and choose to bring about their collective annihilation.[9] As Minois notes, in certain respects these forms of atheism can be regarded as the most complete atheisms, since they allow for no God replacements: nation, race, progress, democracy, etc. Existence is looked in the face and is judged futile.[10]

In the twentieth century the celebrated British atheist Bertrand Russell would also draw something like these depressing conclusions, as does the contemporary atheistic writer John Gray in his influential (and disturbing) Straw Dogs (2002).[11] Up until the present the New Atheists have not engaged at any length with these issues, although it is to be expected that a fuller discussion concerning meaning and purpose will eventually be forthcoming as the controversies develop.

References

Gray, John. Straw Dogs: Thoughts on Humans and Other Animals. London: Granta Books, 2002.
Martin, Michael. Atheism : A Philosophical Justification. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1990.
Minois, Georges. Histoire de L'atheisme. La Fleche: Fayard, 1998.

http://www.investigatingatheism.info/meaning.html


new evangelical atheists are wimps.

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Re: New Atheism and Your Probs With It, If Any

Postby kool maudit » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:42 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:great posts... a pleasure to read everyone's thoughts/experiences.
I'd add that one of the major problems I (and my husband the atheist now moving towards agnostic) have is this notion that atheism is a 'cause.'
A cause? Really?


Atheism certainly is a cause as long as children are indoctrinated in death-worship and fundamentalist religion, as long as they are threatened and traumatized with visions of eternal hell if they do not conform to arbitrary beliefs, as long as churches use these doctrines as a means of exploiting and oppressing followers, as long as people who are the same are set at each others' throats because of supposed religious differences, as long as as long as churches marshal resources to deny the freedoms and rights of others, as long as "god" is used as an instrument of hate, and as long as politicians are required to profess that they take their lead from this fictional being or have no chance of being elected.




sure, but in the end, do we let the concept of a "god" be socially defined? like, solely? because materialism can certainly act as a bulwark against fundamentalism, and can be used to counter the claims of wild-eyed, arbitrary, and threatening priest kings... but it just might not be true.

the nature of consciousness might be such than it can exist in dispersed and immaterial (or immaterial-seeming) forms. there is a mystical element here. there is some woo. it might muddy the waters, but it's true.
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