Chavez Dies.

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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby lupercal » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:46 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:Two words for you lupe

Liberation Theology.......study up


You mean the movement of Catholic theologians given its name by a Dominican priest who currently teaches at a Catholic college?

Gustavo Gutiérrez Merino, O.P., (born 8 June 1928 in Lima) is a Peruvian theologian and Dominican priest regarded as the founder of Liberation Theology.[1] He holds the John Cardinal O'Hara Professorship of Theology at the University of Notre Dame.


Yes, I knew that. Did you? I read A Theology of Liberation a few years after the translation was published in 1973. He happens to hold a high regard for Simon Bolivar and of course for Bartolome de Las Casas, whose bio he also wrote and I also read. In fact I have a copy:

Image

Venezuela like Chiapas and Cuba figure into the Las Casas story in several prophetic ways oddly enough. I don't remember if he has anything to say about Chavez specifically but I can look it up.
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:10 am

I was thinking more on the lines of how they dug John (good buddy Reagan)Paul's corpse up and started the blood worshiping rites to reward him for blowing up Vatican ll...It's the Liberation Theology WAR in the Catholic church I was referring to
Pope John Paul II's body exhumed ahead of beatification Mass
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:44 am

Remember when Hugo was pronounced dead in '07 by the CIA?

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Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby hava007 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:53 am

Just brought up the Olmert fall from grace, after he , allegedly concocted a deal with chavez gov, to sell something. THe deal was stopped in a US court, and soon thereafter he was suddenly drowning in criminal charges in Israel, which recently he was mostly acquitted from. This means that the longevity of chavez was not going to be record high.



just spoke to old time colombian acquaintance, devout catholic, and she is happy chavez passed away, and indeed sounds like some convergence between US
infamous republicans (mainly the anti communist pro big corp type) and some catholic people. Have to say that from her "credo", I also get a picture of collaboration with hard liner Zionists (who serve the repubs) with a form of antisemitism old fashion style (jews drink blood type). I was worried a bit that this lady stated next agenda as "israel is nice, mostly modern but the orthodox jews are awful, they are the problem". Not that I endorse orthodox judaism in Israel but it seems that there is unified christian front emerging (catholics and lutheran church for now) against the orthodox jews . Seeing this together with the massive backing to the new Israeli "yesh atid" party (which agenda includes strong stance against the orthodox jews), I smell something.

Not that I mind much of what is going to happen in Israel, but it looks like hard times ahead. The ultra orthodox jews are the last good thing in Jewish world, in terms of original thinking. Yes they treat their women not so good, but then we saw what the enlightened do to women (trafficking, pedo rings, and so forth documented in this blog extensively).
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby hava007 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:53 am

Just brought up the Olmert fall from grace, after he , allegedly concocted a deal with chavez gov, to sell something. THe deal was stopped in a US court, and soon thereafter he was suddenly drowning in criminal charges in Israel, which recently he was mostly acquitted from. This means that the longevity of chavez was not going to be record high.



just spoke to old time colombian acquaintance, devout catholic, and she is happy chavez passed away, and indeed sounds like some convergence between US
infamous republicans (mainly the anti communist pro big corp type) and some catholic people. Have to say that from her "credo", I also get a picture of collaboration with hard liner Zionists (who serve the repubs) with a form of antisemitism old fashion style (jews drink blood type). I was worried a bit that this lady stated next agenda as "israel is nice, mostly modern but the orthodox jews are awful, they are the problem". Not that I endorse orthodox judaism in Israel but it seems that there is unified christian front emerging (catholics and lutheran church for now) against the orthodox jews . Seeing this together with the massive backing to the new Israeli "yesh atid" party (which agenda includes strong stance against the orthodox jews), I smell something.

Not that I mind much of what is going to happen in Israel, but it looks like hard times ahead. The ultra orthodox jews are the last good thing in Jewish world, in terms of original thinking. Yes they treat their women not so good, but then we saw what the enlightened do to women (trafficking, pedo rings, and so forth documented in this blog extensively).
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby hava007 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:53 am

Just brought up the Olmert fall from grace, after he , allegedly concocted a deal with chavez gov, to sell something. THe deal was stopped in a US court, and soon thereafter he was suddenly drowning in criminal charges in Israel, which recently he was mostly acquitted from. This means that the longevity of chavez was not going to be record high.



just spoke to old time colombian acquaintance, devout catholic, and she is happy chavez passed away, and indeed sounds like some convergence between US
infamous republicans (mainly the anti communist pro big corp type) and some catholic people. Have to say that from her "credo", I also get a picture of collaboration with hard liner Zionists (who serve the repubs) with a form of antisemitism old fashion style (jews drink blood type). I was worried a bit that this lady stated next agenda as "israel is nice, mostly modern but the orthodox jews are awful, they are the problem". Not that I endorse orthodox judaism in Israel but it seems that there is unified christian front emerging (catholics and lutheran church for now) against the orthodox jews . Seeing this together with the massive backing to the new Israeli "yesh atid" party (which agenda includes strong stance against the orthodox jews), I smell something.

Not that I mind much of what is going to happen in Israel, but it looks like hard times ahead. The ultra orthodox jews are the last good thing in Jewish world, in terms of original thinking. Yes they treat their women not so good, but then we saw what the enlightened do to women (trafficking, pedo rings, and so forth documented in this blog extensively).
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:54 am

seemslikeadream wrote:Remember when Hugo was pronounced dead in '07 by the CIA?


It would be a hell of a thing if he appeared tomorrow for his farewell speech.

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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby Seamus OBlimey » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:50 am

Bad news, though not unexpected.

Chavez is up there with Jesus, the Buddha and Strummer in my estimation..

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Thanks for all on the religious aspects I hadn't much noticed. Got some reading to do now.

Good hopes all! Keep on fighting the good fight!
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby cptmarginal » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:23 am

Really sad. Every good thing he tried to do was deviously opposed tooth-and-nail by the (white) aristocrats who hated him. It's difficult to even find out what his shortcomings were, because you immediately hit a wall of propaganda. I'd like to read a good account of his complex dealings with Colombia, for example, or his strong military backing and the drug trade in Venezuela. Not necessarily to condemn him for those things, just to learn about it from somewhere that isn't a sniveling disingenuous hit-piece.

It's never good to jump to conclusions on this stuff, but it really does seem likely that he was poisoned. They hated him, and some articles in the US mainstream media at the time of his oil nationalization moves basically were veiled threats.

Now:

Chavez death brings uncertainty, hope to oil patch

Venezuela's oil production is poised to reverse a dramatic decline that has seen exports fall by nearly half during Hugo Chavez's time as president.

Following Chavez's death Tuesday, Venezuela, which is a member of OPEC and sits on the world's second-largest oil reserves, faces near-term political uncertainty that could bring further turmoil to its oil industry. And even under the best circumstances it would take years to increase production and exports, analysts say. But any new government would have a powerful economic incentive to make that a top priority.


What a nice positive spin! Uncertainty, hope in the patch.
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby Seamus OBlimey » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:23 am

"Without his charisma and force of character, it is not at all clear how his successors will maintain the system he created," said Daniel Yergin, author of a Pulitzer Prize winning book on global energy politics."Without his charisma and force of character, it is not at all clear how his successors will maintain the system he created," said Daniel Yergin, author of a Pulitzer Prize winning book on global energy politics."Without his charisma and force of character, it is not at all clear how his successors will maintain the system he created," said Daniel Yergin, author of a Pulitzer Prize winning book on global energy politics
[/quote]

Pulitzer the other one it's got bells on.. Chavez was always more than just one man
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby undead » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:42 am

hava007 wrote:Not that I mind much of what is going to happen in Israel, but it looks like hard times ahead. The ultra orthodox jews are the last good thing in Jewish world, in terms of original thinking. Yes they treat their women not so good, but then we saw what the enlightened do to women (trafficking, pedo rings, and so forth documented in this blog extensively).


Uh... do you maybe want to clarify that a little bit? Because as it is it looks like a pretty abhorrent couple of statements.

1. Don't really mind continued genocide of Palestinians.

2. Orthodox Jews: at least they're not human traffickers (because everyone else is?)

3. Orthodox Jews = original thinking? Isn't orthodox religion more like the definition of unoriginal thinking?

On Edit:

Not to derail the thread - RIP Chavez, hopefully Venezuela can hold it together.
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby hava007 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:47 am

undead wrote:
hava007 wrote:Not that I mind much of what is going to happen in Israel, but it looks like hard times ahead. The ultra orthodox jews are the last good thing in Jewish world, in terms of original thinking. Yes they treat their women not so good, but then we saw what the enlightened do to women (trafficking, pedo rings, and so forth documented in this blog extensively).


Uh... do you maybe want to clarify that a little bit? Because as it is it looks like a pretty abhorrent couple of statements.

1. Don't really mind continued genocide of Palestinians.

2. Orthodox Jews: at least they're not human traffickers (because everyone else is?)

3. Orthodox Jews = original thinking? Isn't orthodox religion more like the definition of unoriginal thinking?

On Edit:

Not to derail the thread - RIP Chavez, hopefully Venezuela can hold it together.

frankly this looks like a bait, so i'll pass.
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby RocketMan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:14 am

Excellent, evenhanded appraisal:

http://33revolutionsperminute.wordpress ... 1954-2013/

Chávez’s presidency cries out for both/and rather than either/or analysis. In the life of this passionate, flamboyant, provocative character, success and failure don’t meet in the middle but create a balance of extremes. He reduced poverty (the number living in extreme poverty went from 23.4% to 8.5%; unemployment halved) and poured oil money into education and healthcare but he left Caracas a failed city with crumbling infrastructure and one of the highest murder rates in the world. Working with other populist leaders on the continent, he made Latin America stronger and more self-confident but he was a loyal friend to tyrants and continued to offer unwavering support to Gaddafi and Assad even as they murdered protesters. He introduced a progressive constitution and survived a US-endorsed right-wing coup without resorting to the extreme measures that blighted Latin America in the 70s and beyond, but also centralised power, eroded human rights and intimidated opponents (although not on the scale that his critics would have us believe). And so on.

Such titanic complexity is great if you want to write a Shakespearean tragedy but not so useful if you want to make a political case. For commentators (rather than reporters) on the left and right, there is a lot riding on Chávez’s legacy and nuance is the first casualty. You will read countless times that Chávez was a champion of the underdog and a vital counterbalance to the US-led neoliberal consensus. You will also read that he was an autocratic buffoon whose ambitions far outstripped his competence.

His critics have a hard time accepting that he genuinely won four elections, either questioning the integrity of the results or the intellect of the voters, unable to accept poor Venezuelans’ sincere love for a leader who actually cared about them. They also show considerably more concern for Chávez’s human rights abuses than they ever did for those of the regimes that did far worse things across Latin America, Venezuela included, with the west’s blessing during the Cold War. If only Pinochet had attracted half the opprobrium, but of course he wasn’t a socialist. Overcorrecting this bias, supporters on the left are prone to handwave his human rights record, support for dictators and various economic failures. Give an inch in this argument and your opponents will take a mile.
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:26 am

RocketMan wrote:Excellent, evenhanded appraisal:

http://33revolutionsperminute.wordpress ... 1954-2013/

Chávez’s presidency cries out for both/and rather than either/or analysis.


This is true of anyone and everything. When it has to be underlined, one has to wonder why. Not that there sometimes aren't good reasons to find the middle way. But Chavez was attacked in an either/or way by the world's most powerful imperialist powers. When your tax money is paying for a covert war on a foreign nation - when it is paying for a war on democracy there - there can be no either/or. The question becomes, which side are you on?

Some of the criticisms of Chavez are self-evident; he could play the clown, and he did have an autocratic style, but the substance? In most countries, the 2002 coup plotters and their private media collaborators would have been lined up against the wall. If NBC had participated in a failed coup attempt against Bush, it wouldn't have lost its license after five years. Brian Williams would have been shipped to Guantanamo the next day.

As the OP said:

Since 2002, Washington channeled $100 million to opposition groups in Venezuela and this election year alone, distributed US$ 40-50 million there. [xi] But the Venezuelan people disregarded the barrage of propaganda unleashed against the president by the media that is 95% privately owned and anti-Chavez. [xii].


I believe that leaves little ground for nuance on the part of US-Americans. Attacking Venezuelan democracy is a budget item. Are they for it or against it?

Continuing article:

In the life of this passionate, flamboyant, provocative character, success and failure don’t meet in the middle but create a balance of extremes. He reduced poverty (the number living in extreme poverty went from 23.4% to 8.5%; unemployment halved) and poured oil money into education and healthcare but he left Caracas a failed city with crumbling infrastructure and one of the highest murder rates in the world. Working with other populist leaders on the continent, he made Latin America stronger and more self-confident but he was a loyal friend to tyrants and continued to offer unwavering support to Gaddafi and Assad even as they murdered protesters.


Venezuela indeed has near the highest murder rate in the world, and I believe it more than doubled since 1998. As for the support for Iran and Syria: not good, but who put Venezuela on the same kill list?

He introduced a progressive constitution and survived a US-endorsed right-wing coup without resorting to the extreme measures that blighted Latin America in the 70s and beyond,


To which leftist governments in Latin America never did. The 70s were the era of the Condor military dictatorships. Has Castro taken extreme measures? How do these look compared to death squads killing hundreds of thousands in Central America? Because that is what the US was looking to impose on Cuba.

but also centralised power, eroded human rights and intimidated opponents (although not on the scale that his critics would have us believe). And so on.


Venezuela has established grassroots, neighborhood-level democratic institutions unseen in the rest of the world.

Such titanic complexity is great if you want to write a Shakespearean tragedy but not so useful if you want to make a political case. For commentators (rather than reporters) on the left and right, there is a lot riding on Chávez’s legacy and nuance is the first casualty. You will read countless times that Chávez was a champion of the underdog and a vital counterbalance to the US-led neoliberal consensus. You will also read that he was an autocratic buffoon whose ambitions far outstripped his competence.

His critics have a hard time accepting that he genuinely won four elections, either questioning the integrity of the results or the intellect of the voters, unable to accept poor Venezuelans’ sincere love for a leader who actually cared about them. They also show considerably more concern for Chávez’s human rights abuses than they ever did for those of the regimes that did far worse things across Latin America, Venezuela included, with the west’s blessing during the Cold War.


Cold War?! What about right now: Colombia? Mexico? Honduras?! This cannot be ascribed to the author's ignorance.

If only Pinochet had attracted half the opprobrium, but of course he wasn’t a socialist.


Opprobrium? For a dozen years and more, Pinochet attracted Western money and Chicago boys' endorsements.

Overcorrecting this bias, supporters on the left are prone to handwave his human rights record, support for dictators and various economic failures. Give an inch in this argument and your opponents will take a mile.


Poor author, stuck between the extremes!

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chavez Dies.

Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:39 am

The War On Democracy, by John Pilger (2007), 94 minutes:



Description:

The War On Democracy' (2007) was John Pilger's first for cinema. It explores the current and past relationship of Washington with Latin American countries such as Venezuela, Bolivia and Chile.

Using archive footage sourced by Michael Moore's archivist Carl Deal, the film shows how serial US intervention, overt and covert, has toppled a series of legitimate governments in the Latin American region since the 1950s. The democratically elected Chilean government of Salvador Allende, for example, was ousted by a US backed coup in 1973 and replaced by the military dictatorship of General Pinochet. Guatemala, Panama, Nicaragua, Honduras and El Salvador have all been invaded by the United States.

John Pilger interviews several ex-CIA agents who took part in secret campaigns against democratic countries in the region. He investigates the School of the Americas in the US state of Georgia, where Pinochet's torture squads were trained along with tyrants and death squad leaders in Haiti, El Salvador, Brazil and Argentina.

The film unearths the real story behind the attempted overthrow of Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez in 2002 and how the people of the barrios of Caracas rose up to force his return to power.

It also looks at the wider rise of populist governments across South America lead by indigenous leaders intent on loosening the shackles of Washington and a fairer redistribution of the continent's natural wealth.

John Pilger says: "[The film] is about the struggle of people to free themselves from a modern form of slavery". These people, he says, "describe a world not as American presidents like to see it as useful or expendable, they describe the power of courage and humanity among people with next to nothing. They reclaim noble words like democracy, freedom, liberation, justice, and in doing so they are defending the most basic human rights of all of us in a war being waged against all of us."

'The War On Democracy' was a Youngheart Entertainment, Granada and Michael Watt production. It was released in UK cinemas on 15 June 2007 and broadcast on ITV1, 20 August 2007. Directors: John Pilger and Chris Martin. Producers: Chris Martin and Wayne Young. Editor: Joe Frost. The film was made with the support of the humanitarian financier Michael Watt.

Awards: Best Documentary Award, 2008 One World Awards, London. The panel's citation read: "There are six criteria the judges are asked to use to select the winner of this award: the film's impact on public opinion, its appeal to a wide audience, its inclusion of voices from the developing world, its high journalistic or production standards, its success in conveying the impact of the actions of the world's rich on the lives of the poor and the extent to which it draws attention to possible solutions. One film met every one of these. It was the winner of the award: John Pilger's 'The War on Democracy'."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B0RbU_UhCA
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