Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby FourthBase » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:51 am

Some cases really get to me. That lawyer whose wife and two daughters were raped/tortured/burned alive in a home invasion, I 100% believe those two deserve a bullet to the brain. However I am against the electric chair, noose, gas chamber, and lethal injection and find those grotesque


As I said in another thread, a nitrogen gas chamber is BY FAR the humanest option.

I feel where Weather Balloons is coming from. I do.

But, I also recognize people need an outlet for righteous fury.
And, if I could catch any of the monsters 8bit mentions in the act...
I would gladly -- gladly -- break their fucking necks to stop them.
(Disclaimer: In so far as it would be legal for me to break their necks.)
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that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby 8bitagent » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:33 am

It was actually you people collectively that got me to rethink the death penalty. I mean I havent gone Norwegian soft(where the guy who killed 77 people including many minors only got 21 years)
but just, rethinking.

The discussion though is fascinating: Is someone born conscienceless, is it learned, a defect of noone's fault? And if it's simply one's nature, like a lion who chases and eats a Zebra...well,
what are we to do? A man found to be mentally retarded who goes on to do unspeakable acts is thought of by many unfit to face the death penalty.

I recently learned that Rumsfeld and the neocons along with Chalabi drew up plans to invade Iraq in the fall of 2001...meaning they had Operation Northwoods styled premeditated point by point memos on how to get into
Iraq. #1 on the "how to convince the UN/public/congress" list was "create a dispute over inspectors". These guys were said to have gloatingly talked about oil and all this stuff, and not at all about reconstruction, democracy, etc.
None of this surprises me, but the fact it's now in the open...well. It's something.
I bring that up because it shows not only how our supposed guardians and leaders act, but the difference between someone who just wantonly causes destruction because they're unstable and people who are methodical.

The Sandy Hook thread is now one of the longest RI threads ever about a singular event...yet ultimately, it could in the end be the kid was inspired long ago to aspire, to plot. In the post 1986 "Postal" times and especially post 1999 Columbine times, this sort of thing like the Ohio shooter seems like the new normal. Even sadder is how these young kids seem more premeditated than the guy who walks into a workplace.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby FourthBase » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:48 am

8bitagent wrote:It was actually you people collectively that got me to rethink the death penalty. I mean I havent gone Norwegian soft(where the guy who killed 77 people including many minors only got 21 years)
but just, rethinking.

The discussion though is fascinating: Is someone born conscienceless, is it learned, a defect of noone's fault? And if it's simply one's nature, like a lion who chases and eats a Zebra...well,
what are we to do? A man found to be mentally retarded who goes on to do unspeakable acts is thought of by many unfit to face the death penalty.

I recently learned that Rumsfeld and the neocons along with Chalabi drew up plans to invade Iraq in the fall of 2001...meaning they had Operation Northwoods styled premeditated point by point memos on how to get into
Iraq. #1 on the "how to convince the UN/public/congress" list was "create a dispute over inspectors". These guys were said to have gloatingly talked about oil and all this stuff, and not at all about reconstruction, democracy, etc.
None of this surprises me, but the fact it's now in the open...well. It's something.
I bring that up because it shows not only how our supposed guardians and leaders act, but the difference between someone who just wantonly causes destruction because they're unstable and people who are methodical.

The Sandy Hook thread is now one of the longest RI threads ever about a singular event...yet ultimately, it could in the end be the kid was inspired long ago to aspire, to plot. In the post 1986 "Postal" times and especially post 1999 Columbine times, this sort of thing like the Ohio shooter seems like the new normal. Even sadder is how these young kids seem more premeditated than the guy who walks into a workplace.


According to Socrates, people only do wrong because they do not know right. In other words, one could view the Cheneys and Rumsfelds of the world as simply being retarded. Retards who retardedly think the evil they produce is going to wind up being good for them. When, it isn't. As Eddie Murphy pointed out, even Reagan's world-striding power evaporated into dementia and turned to fucking dust. Someday, even Dick Cheney will die alone and presumably miserable and haunted by his deeds, in his own head at least even if he's surrounded by family and doped with MDMA and celebrated by revisionist hagiographers. In the end, sociopaths are just retarded, extremely retarded, just in an emotional and/or moral way, rather than intellectual. This is not, of course, to besmirch the dignity and goodness of other kinds of retarded people. I would far, far rather have the president be my lovable and morally-sound long-deceased aunt who had Down's Syndrome than let a retard like Bush be president.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby 8bitagent » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:57 am

FourthBase wrote:
8bitagent wrote:It was actually you people collectively that got me to rethink the death penalty. I mean I havent gone Norwegian soft(where the guy who killed 77 people including many minors only got 21 years)
but just, rethinking.

The discussion though is fascinating: Is someone born conscienceless, is it learned, a defect of noone's fault? And if it's simply one's nature, like a lion who chases and eats a Zebra...well,
what are we to do? A man found to be mentally retarded who goes on to do unspeakable acts is thought of by many unfit to face the death penalty.

I recently learned that Rumsfeld and the neocons along with Chalabi drew up plans to invade Iraq in the fall of 2001...meaning they had Operation Northwoods styled premeditated point by point memos on how to get into
Iraq. #1 on the "how to convince the UN/public/congress" list was "create a dispute over inspectors". These guys were said to have gloatingly talked about oil and all this stuff, and not at all about reconstruction, democracy, etc.
None of this surprises me, but the fact it's now in the open...well. It's something.
I bring that up because it shows not only how our supposed guardians and leaders act, but the difference between someone who just wantonly causes destruction because they're unstable and people who are methodical.

The Sandy Hook thread is now one of the longest RI threads ever about a singular event...yet ultimately, it could in the end be the kid was inspired long ago to aspire, to plot. In the post 1986 "Postal" times and especially post 1999 Columbine times, this sort of thing like the Ohio shooter seems like the new normal. Even sadder is how these young kids seem more premeditated than the guy who walks into a workplace.


According to Socrates, people only do wrong because they do not know right. In other words, one could view the Cheneys and Rumsfelds of the world as simply being retarded. Retards who retardedly think the evil they produce is going to wind up being good for them. When, it isn't. As Eddie Murphy pointed out, even Reagan's world-striding power evaporated into dementia and turned to fucking dust. Someday, even Dick Cheney will die alone and presumably miserable and haunted by his deeds, in his own head at least even if he's surrounded by family and doped with MDMA and celebrated by revisionist hagiographers. In the end, sociopaths are just retarded, extremely retarded, just in an emotional and/or moral way, rather than intellectual. This is not, of course, to besmirch the dignity and goodness of other kinds of retarded people. I would far, far rather have the president be my lovable and morally-sound long-deceased aunt who had Down's Syndrome than let a retard like Bush be president.



Oh goodness, Bush is a whole other sort of psychological makeup then the Rumsfeld/Feif/Wolf/Cheney ilk, however no less part of the culpability.
One thing I will say, these elites sure have good medical care. What a miraculous recovery Poppy H-dub Magogoles made almost over night. Now he's free
to go back to Outback Steakhouse with Babs and watch another large scale horror show unfold.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby 82_28 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:13 am

Don't make me put a cap in your weather balloon. I KID!!!!

But this shit is unconscionable and should not be tolerated. What would fucking Judge Judy do? There is no blood lust, there is punishment when people like this wave their arrogance and inhumanity in the faces of the broken and have taken everything from them. Say we even were existing in an anarchist state of leftist pacifists and a dude like this came along -- we'd put him down. The affront is inexcusable. He's saying with that gesture that he can be as evil as he wants to be and really fuck us all.

I'm here to to tell him, no you can't. I won't put up with evil. Motherfucker murdered people and then insults their families and I am supposed to say "give the kid a break". Nope. He's best gone.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby justdrew » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:27 am

"it isn't a court of justice son, this is a court of law"

but it may be that some new form of "deterrent" threatened punishment is called for in particularly heinous cases. Whatever it is, we should probably never know what it is. For instance, take one of those deep underground caves, deep enough to feel a little heat in the stone, deep enough that there can only ever be one way out, and once a convict is put down the pit, well, none ever come back, ever. food and supplies are sent down, trash removed, inmates can present for medical treatment, otherwise the inmates run the pit.

I suppose it's a little off putting the thought of actually creating a living hell on earth

We should really be glad our "criminal justice" prevents us from having to pay someone to administer godawful cruel and unusual punishments, it's one place where we can reject the endless cycles of revenge killing and the horror of actually contemplating what could be done to a human being. Too bad our nation chose to fail to make that choice in regard to terrorism, now we've pretty much got a gallon of blood on our hands for each drop we shed. Not a great place to be as a nation.

I think to a real extent we have to pay less attention to these kinds of crimes, it's good to know it goes on, take a moment for the victims and survivors, curse the perpetrator and forgive them. Most of these types of events we don't really need to know about, it's local news. Excessive media focus breeds copycats (or so it's thought) there'll always be a few places on the net that focus on the subject and track it and seriously try to think about "what can be done" - let some specialists work with it - but that's never going to happen in a mainstream media "national dialog" extravaganza - big media should stop excessively reporting on such incidents.

There is wisdom in forgiveness, because carrying each of these incidents is going to weigh ever more heavily and yield no fruits.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby barracuda » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:01 am

I'm almost entirely out of empathy for these young mass killers, and this guy's courtroom demeanor doesn't move me to change that perspective much. But realistically, TJ Lane is the product of a destructive, broken, and abusive homelife, a family of heroin addicts, alcoholism, and domestic violence, and finally, bullying in school. He took a gun to the popular jock boy who his girlfriend dumped him for.

Lots of people come through an abusive, neglected childhood without becoming criminals or sociopaths. No person comes out of it without being marked.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby Skunkboy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:08 pm

Met a guy once who I thought emanated evil like someone sweats from their pores. Who knows? May have just been my overactive imagination. Here's an article I just read, that ties into this discussion.

http://www.disinfo.com/2013/03/the-ener ... ychopathy/

The Energetics of Psychopathy

Posted by Ted Heistman on March 19, 2013

Do you remember the scene in The Green Mile when death row inmate John Coffee is touched by murderer “Wild Bill”? After feeling some powerful negative energy, he says, “You a bad man.”

Are you like John Coffee? Would you know it if you brushed up against a cold-blooded killer? You might if you’re what Dr. Judith Orloff calls an “intuitive empath“.

I began to sense energy emanating from people when I was around 20 or 21 years old. An interesting thing happens when a person turns 21: The prefrontal cortex of the brain matures. I think that I had always sensed energy around me unconsciously, but at this time I became conscious of it and began to investigate these experiences analytically. When I learned about Chi or Qi energy in practices like reiki and qi gong, it was not simply an idea I accepted intellectually or on faith: It simply put a name to what I had already experienced.

People have energy emanating from them and this energy circulates around. Most people are somewhat suspicious of strangers, and in a strange environment their auras contract. When they become more comfortable and familiar with the people around them they open up.In addition to contracting ones aura as a self protection mechanism, others adopt a different strategy when in a strange place: They project hostile energy.

Some people may start out hostile at first but then warm up. It’s natural to be somewhat suspicious of strangers. Historically people lived in tribes, and the men of the tribes would be protectors and outsiders would be the enemy. This has kind of broken down a bit now that people are organized more and more into mass societies, but often in isolated areas or among other other insular groups, this is the stance people adopt to outsiders. With people like this, some relatively simple cue might cause them to open up, like for example if they learn you are a friend of a friend or a know one of their relatives. Often I can feel people’s energy change in these situations.

A conversation is an exchange of energy. It circulates between the people. Ideally its an equal exchange. There is a basic reciprocity.

This exchange of energy between two normal people having a friendly conversation is for the most part unconscious. This exchange of energy is a mysterious thing. For example, imagine heading to go home for work,after a stressful day. You feel tired and worn out. Now, imagine that at the last minute your boss tells you “Hey, good job today! We really appreciate all the hard work you are putting in here.”

Suddenly you feel energized. Your feet are no longer dragging. You have a spring in your step. Somehow you have been recharged. It’s almost like you ate a candy bar or something. You have received a boost. Where did this energy come from? Medically, it would be easier to trace energy received from a candy bar than a compliment, but it is energy all the same. It was given to you by your boss, but not in such a way that his or her energy was depleted. The compliment probably led to positive energy on their part also. It was an even exchange. Its a very subtle thing but it is very real.

Psychopaths are a tribe of one. They are not open and friendly, but rather see themselves as being utterly alone in an extremely hostile universe. Their energetic stance is one of hostility, but they have a strategy of appearing friendly. They often mimic friendly behavior, but it’s a ruse, and no free exchange of energy is really possible with such people because they lack a basic trust toward the whole of humanity. They trick people into opening up their auras with charm, humor and conversational skills.We are conditioned to be friendly to friendly people, so the ruse tends to work. Were everyone a psychopath it wouldn’t work; there would be no society. It would be every man for himself.

The unease that most people feel when talking with a psychopath is mostly unconscious, but one thing some people often pick up is that their smile does not match their eyes. The eye is the window to the soul.

Most people don’t continuously make strong eye contact because it can be deemed threatening. In the course of a conversation they look away and check back once in a while to connect. I recall once having a conversation with a person I later determined to be a psychopath: It was a friendly conversation about some topic I enjoy – travel, or the outdoors or something – and when I made eye contact I noticed that his eyes were hostile. His voice was totally friendly, slightly musical, even; he told jokes and little quirky anecdotes. It was jolting to see these cold eyes. They were eyes you would expect to see if we were squaring off to fight.

To him it was a fight.: He was measuring me up, because he had no trust toward me at all. Ours was a hostile exchange based on power, and was probably like every other exchange he has had with every other human being on the face of the Earth.

Our exchange felt like vampirism: I was drained of my energy. While there has been much written about “psychic vampirism”, I find most of it to be fairly inadequate because the authors usually fail to point out that people are exchanging energy all the time. It’s a subtle thing this energy, and it doesn’t exactly belong to you. We aren’t really even completely discreet entities: It is as if there is energy all around us and we are simply patterns within this energy.

You give energy to people and they usually give energy back. There is a yin and yang to it – something like resonance. You pass energy back and forth and come to resonate with each other more and more. That is what romantic intimacy is, and it can culminate in sexual intercourse. Most relationships don’t rise to that level of intimacy, of course, but we all participate in some form of intercourse in the general meaning of an “exchange” between two people.

Normal people experience this intercourse – this exchange – during daily interactions. There’s a reciprocity here. However, a psychopath always want to get the better of the other person in these exchanges: It is never a two-way thing. Everything about them is a lie.

Psychopaths lie to everybody because they are predators.When you interact with them you come to really feel like prey, or a deer caught in the headlights of an incoming car. Their gaze can feel physically hot; You can feel them probing you for weaknesses, to see if you can be put to some self-serving use or if you are a threat to be neutralized. Once again, everyone to them is the enemy. They have no friends.

I believe they have a different type of consciousness than other people, and they’re are actually feeding on other people’s consciousness. Consciousness is attention and attention is energy. They gravitate to positions of power because they is where people direct their attention. People “look to” leaders, and in an ideal sense of this social contract between the leader and the led it becomes mutually beneficial.

Unfortunately, psychopaths don’t go in for that.

It’s hard to understand their motivations: Do they become corrupt? Why can’t they be more honest? Those questions are meaningless. If psychopathic leaders were honest and used their position of power to help others they wouldn’t be psychopaths. This is not just a weird personality quirk, it is central to who they are. I am saying this as a tautology: They “have to” be dishonest and lie and take advantage of others, just like the sun has to shine. The sun isn’t motivated to shine. The sun has no choice.

Researchers will continue to come up with materialist rationalizations for psychopathy. there are plenty of theories about genetics and environment, and brain scans offer some clues into the biology of psychopaths, but I look at it simply like this: Everyone is a Star and the Star Psychopaths are black holes. It’s more or less just the way things are. In this world there are bunny rabbits as well as rattle snakes.

There are ramifications when a person does not give a wink about anyone else in the world but themselves.When psychopaths get into positions of power they wreak a lot of mayhem, but even if it was possible to round up all the psychopaths in the world and put them in padded cells, I suspect that the world would be poorer for it. I wouldn’t want to live in a world with no dangers. Like rattle snakes, lions and tigers, psychopaths have some mysterious role to play. Also, I think its perfectly fine in terms if the balance of the universe that many of them end up in jail.

So how do I deal with psychopaths? First, as Jon Ronson, author of The Psychopath Test, pointed out, it does no good to see psychopaths all over the place, on every corner and under every rock. However,if you find your self in a situation of being fed upon and drained of energy – continually gazed at like a pork sirloin – then you obviously need some type of self-defense. Politely ignore them. don’t give them your attention. Don’t engage them any more than you absolutely have to do. Don’t sit near them if you have any choice at all, don’t strike up conversations with them. Stop being so goddamned friendly to them like you probably are with everyone else! Friendliness and the normal positive regard for others’ well-being is the currency you use in your normal intercourse with the rest of humanity, but it’s lost on them: Withdraw it. It will all just be drained away and then you will have less for those who can appreciate it.

Note from the editor: If you’re interested in hearing more about Jon Ronson and his exploration of psychopathy, then you might want to check out his appearance on the DisinfoCast. Click here.


If every man helped his neighbor, no man would be without help.

-Bruce Lee
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby 82_28 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:34 pm

Just occurred to me that this is where the "rule of thumb" comes in. I shake a lot of hands. Many people I know in passing, people I don't know and people I do, I shake hands. I can tell the level of empathy with every given hand shake. Feeble "dead fish" handshakes are creepy, because you want to know what's up. I give firm handshakes -- sometimes too firm supposedly -- esp with women. But you can tell a lot from a handshake. If it's dead fish style, keep him on watch. If it's a friendly firm -- well then, trustworthy. The people I know and interact with are judged by their handshake. Dudes that are into guns and shit I've found have very feeble handshakes, while others who are into people have very firm ones. They don't grasp with the thumb as a way of sort of casually "hugging" you. Really friendly people shake the hand and then it is inevitable, a short hug, another handshake and "see you soon and take care of yourself".
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby Aurataur » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:55 pm

I once caught a glimpse of evil while in an altered state of consciousness. It was 1999, a hot summer day on the Venice Boardwalk. We came across a drum circle near the northern reaches of the beach. I sat down and closed my eyes, visualizing the rhythmic dance. Then, something changed. I opened my eyes and scanned the periphery. I saw it. About fifty feet away, on the other side of the drum circle, was a dark and menacing cloud, a miasma, a swirling vortex of brown and black, like a million biting flies caught in a tornado.

This aura of evil weaved slowly through the crowd. I watched as the oblivious mass of people instinctively parted to make way for this creature, like a malevolent Moses parting a see of humanity. Finally, it made its way to my side of the drum circle. It was a man, dressed all in black, a hood pulled tight over his head. He stopped and looked at me. All I could see were two red eyes peering from within the shadows, as the miasma of evil energy churned around him. I could feel the malevolence in that gaze, draining the energy from me. I turned away and stared into the calming waves of the Pacific.

When I looked back, he was gone.

I've never experienced anything like it since.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:25 pm

I think Evil is real - I think it is a force. I think it can come and go in a person and that others are saturated by it. I feel that I have brushed up against it, myself. I feel like it waits for its opportunities and those are getting more and more numerous in these cultural times.

IMO there's something odd about the fact that they let him wear that shirt into the courtroom. There was no reason to condone his wearing of that shirt. On a 5 point scale from Righteous to Evil, I`d give the act of allowing him to wear that shirt into court a solid Igor.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby Nordic » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:03 pm

I'm surprised at the level of blood lust in this thread.

People are getting justice confused with revenge.

Evil people simply need to be removed from the population. They need to be deactivated so they can't hurt anyone else. In a practical sense, this could mean killing them, but then who does the killing? The state? A death-bureacracy? Well that in itself is evil, then you've got more evil in the world.

As far as the handshake thing goes, one of the nicest, gentlest, and honest men I've ever known in my entire life has a godawful dead-fish handshake. Plenty of sociopaths are charming snd charismatic, and undoubtedly have good handshakes.

I have experienced what the author above describes as far as feeling evil. However, i think what they (and I) have experienced is malevolence. Not necessarily evil. It could also be energy left over from committing acts of violence. Again while these acts themselves may be evil, it doesn't mean the person is.

The people I have known who were actually evil didn't seem particularly dangerous at first. In fact they seemed harmless and a bit ridiculous. They can seem boring. Its the "banality of evil" thing.

I guess my point here is that being dangerous and malevolent isn't the same thing as being evil. I would sorta agree with Fourth Base in that evil seems to be something that people are born with -- it's as if they are simply missing something in their brains that the rest of us possess. It's like a form of autism or something -- born without the mechanism or the brain ganglia needed to feel empathy. Like those people who are born deaf, or without the ability to recognize faces.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby justdrew » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:13 pm

Some have a broken Will to power, broken in a specific way that ends up justifying anything and requiring expression all too often in harm to others.

the will to power can be contrasted to the other Viennese schools of psychotherapy: Sigmund Freud's pleasure principle (will to pleasure) and Viktor Frankl's logotherapy (will to meaning). Each of these schools advocates and teaches a very different main driving force in "man". The "will to power" has been "identified" in nature in the dominance hierarchies studied in many living species.


I think all three of those "wills to..." exist in all people and which one is the 'main driving force' varies by person, though only in a few exceptional persons is one source of will vastly greater a drive than the others.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby Sounder » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:21 pm

IMO there's something odd about the fact that they let him wear that shirt into the courtroom. There was no reason to condone his wearing of that shirt. On a 5 point scale from Righteous to Evil, I`d give the act of allowing him to wear that shirt into court a solid Igor.


Good observation Cw, this is a strange world where one can get kicked out of a shopping mall for wearing a 'give peace a chance' t-shirt while a court of law allows the opposite.

One would expect those folk to do a bit better at preserving proper decorum.
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Re: Maybe Some People Are Just Evil?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:26 pm

Nordic wrote:I'm surprised at the level of blood lust in this thread.

People are getting justice confused with revenge.


I had to re-read my post, above because I swear that when I read your response, Nordic, I thought "Well that little fucker went and said word for word what I just said." (excuse the little fucker part that's just the gutter way my inner voice talks)

But then I realized that I had ended up deleting that part. Indeed - justice/revenge. not the same thing. IMO, if you're after revenge you should stay out of the justice system altogether - even as a witness/victim statement giver.

That said, I do believe in the death penalty under very specific circumstances and for the purposes of mercy rather than any sort of oneupsmanship/revenge
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