NBC: Gun Rights Massively Expanding(Powder Keg?)

[Luther Blissett]

I think the question must be asked: do we really want the police to be the only ones with guns?

They already have all the military surplus heavy machinery, ballistics, sonic weapons, explosives and incendiary devices and are soon to have weaponized flying robots. I have to go rewatch the first 3/4ths of Cowboys + Aliens for a reminder on how this whole "gun rights massively exploding" thing is actually going to turn out.

[Elvis]

I think the question must be asked: do we really want the police to be the only ones with guns?

They already have all the military surplus heavy machinery, ballistics, sonic weapons, explosives and incendiary devices and are soon to have weaponized flying robots. I have to go rewatch the first 3/4ths of Cowboys + Aliens for a reminder on how this whole "gun rights massively exploding" thing is actually going to turn out.

I should say, I don't mean that people should have guns so they can fight the state with them, or even that people should have guns. But I definitely don't want the police to be that special.

I haven't seen that Cowboys & Aliens movie, is it any good?

[8bitagent]

Washington has long had a "liberal" concealed carry law, and last time I checked, around 20 years ago, about 5% of the adult population had concealed carry permits. That means 1 out of 20 adult Washingtonians going out and about are likely to be packing a handgun (it's probably more now). A lot of people are aware of the ubiquitous gun-just-under-the-coat, and I'm certain that, especially among the concealed carriers, that awareness often manifests as a certain politeness; no one really feels that special or powerful because they guy in line next to you is just as likely to be carrying a gun as you are.

In fact, that happened to me about 30 years ago. I was working a traveling night job and was legally packing concealed. I guess the Charter Arms .38 "snubby" under my coat was showing, cuz this random guy in a 7-Eleven smiled and said, "Heyyy, cool -- I got one just like that," and pulled back his coat to reveal a 5-shot revolver in a shoulder holster.

A few years later I decided to unilaterally disarm, and sold the snubby. I did feel more like a 'whole person' without the gun. Nevertheless, I eventually got another one but don't carry it around. Self defense isn't a big priority, I'm not that concerned about being killed (it just can't be this week, I've got way too much to do).

In my life I've stumbled upon and stopped, mainly by summoning police, two attempted rapes; a few more minutes and it would have been just rape. I'll never forget the voices of those terrified women, and the hissy snarl of one of the assailants. I think that's why I continue to own a gun: the helplessness, panic and rage I felt in those moments, and what would have happened to those women if not for the sheer luck of police being near enough to flag down.

Here's an interesting fact: in Washington's history, only two conceal-carry permit holders were ever convicted of gun crimes, and both were cops. (I'd have to look it up, but at least one of them, pretty sure both, shot their wives dead.)

I think the question must be asked: do we really want the police to be the only ones with guns?

You're a super hero. Or least the kind I used to read about in my old 80s Green Arrow comic books. Good to hear about this sort of thing actually.

[BOOGIE66]

Cowboys & Aliens is awful

[DrEvil]

...
A lot of people are aware of the ubiquitous gun-just-under-the-coat, and I'm certain that, especially among the concealed carriers, that awareness often manifests as a certain politeness; no one really feels that special or powerful because they guy in line next to you is just as likely to be carrying a gun as you are.
...

No offense, but I would hate to live in a place where people are polite because other people might shoot them if they're not (Don't shoot!).

[Luther Blissett]

I think the question must be asked: do we really want the police to be the only ones with guns?

They already have all the military surplus heavy machinery, ballistics, sonic weapons, explosives and incendiary devices and are soon to have weaponized flying robots. I have to go rewatch the first 3/4ths of Cowboys + Aliens for a reminder on how this whole "gun rights massively exploding" thing is actually going to turn out.

I should say, I don't mean that people should have guns so they can fight the state with them, or even that people should have guns. But I definitely don't want the police to be that special.

I haven't seen that Cowboys & Aliens movie, is it any good?

No, it's terrible, like Boogie66 says.
It's just the only metaphor that I can come up with which contextualizes the wild west vision of crime deterrence, peace and utopia through open carry for all against the militarized police.

[82_28]

...
A lot of people are aware of the ubiquitous gun-just-under-the-coat, and I'm certain that, especially among the concealed carriers, that awareness often manifests as a certain politeness; no one really feels that special or powerful because they guy in line next to you is just as likely to be carrying a gun as you are.
...

No offense, but I would hate to live in a place where people are polite because other people might shoot them if they're not (Don't shoot!).

Agreed. I don't want to be around guns because I intrinsically don't hate life -- especially the lives of others. It is not up to me nor is it ethical to live in an evironment where people can decide that it is up to them whether I live or die or anyone else for that matter. I don't give a shit if cops have guns as long as they follow a deteriorating "code of ethics". I prefer to live in a place of unlocked doors, respect and you're always welcome over.

I used to bartend. Did so for 15 years or so. I never once feared for my life and I would be the only one there until the wee hours. I threw people out. I got aggressive. A lot of cash and merchandise. Did I need a gun once or think that it would be helpful to have one around? No. Sometimes I wondered, but no. And this is coming from a guy who has never been in a fight in his life. I just have never seen the reason to fight or injure another anything. Have I been pushed around? A little. But I've always stood back up and told them to fuck off and there's no problem here, shake hands and be done with it. I don't know how I did it, but I do not hate anyone. Dick Cheney and D. Rumsfeld make an exception to my rule.

[Elvis]

You're a super hero. Or least the kind I used to read about in my old 80s Green Arrow comic books. Good to hear about this sort of thing actually.

Thanks 8bit, though I don't feel like a hero; I suppose a hero would have rushed right in and punched the guy out (which I don't really know how to do, having also never been in a fistfight). As it is, I sometimes feel like I was a coward for not intervening directly, but I think I did the right thing letting the police handle it. And if I'd had a gun then? Who knows what might have happened, but I know I sure as hell don't ever want to shoot anyone.

No offense, but I would hate to live in a place where people are polite because other people might shoot them if they're not (Don't shoot!).

Quite right, DrEvil, and no offense taken. As far as I can tell, I'd love to live in Norway or in such a society where any percieved "need" for handguns is pretty much moot.


And, BOOGIE and Luther, thanks for the movie review. I can rarely find the right time to watch a movie, so I'm super-selective and can skip that one.

[seemslikeadream]

Dozens of police departments suspended for losing US military-grade weaponry
Published time: August 27, 2014 02:52 Get short URL
Reuters / Lucy NicholsonReuters / Lucy Nicholson

Crime, Military, Police, Politics, Security, USA
Close to 200 state and local police departments in the United States have been suspended for losing military-level equipment transferred to them by the Pentagon, a new investigation found.

According to the media outlet Fusion, its independent investigation into the Pentagon’s “1033 program,” which equips state and local police departments across the US with excess military equipment, turned up an alarming trend: Not only did many law enforcement agencies fail to comply with the program’s guidelines, they routinely lost dangerous weaponry.

Already, the investigation has found that police departments in Arizona, California, Mississippi, Missouri, Georgia, and others have lost or cannot account for various types of weapons. This list includes M14 and M16 assault rifles, .45-caliber pistols, shotguns, and even vehicles.

So far, 184 state and local departments have reportedly been suspended in a program that involves the participation of more than 8,000 agencies. Since 1990, the 1033 program has administered more than $4.3 billion worth of equipment and weapons.

In the wake of heavy police response to protests surrounding the death of unarmed teenager Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, the topic of police militarization has emerged at the forefront of public debate in the US. Police employed heavily armored vehicles, sniper rifles, tear gas, and riot gear as they confronted demonstrators against excessive force, sparking widespread concern throughout the country, particularly over the Pentagon’s military equipment transfer program.

Although the Pentagon stated the program is meant to “enhance public safety and improve homeland security,” critics argue that the inability of police to keep track of their equipment adds another layer of doubt to the idea that security is being improved.

“The case for giving military weaponry to these small police departments was already thin in the beginning,” Tim Lynch of the CATO Institute’s project on criminal justice said to Fusion. “Now that we’re finding that there is insufficient accountability for tracking this equipment, then the case is beginning to fall apart.”

In at least two cases, Humvees were reported missing. In Georgia, the Humvee was reportedly sold somehow, only to be recovered later and moved to a different department. Another case in Arkansas involved a stolen Humvee that was not reported until a day later.

Firearms were routinely lost or misplaced. In Arizona alone, the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Department lost 11 or 12 weapons.

“[The program] is obviously very sloppy, and it's another reason that Congress needs to revisit this promptly," Lynch added. "We don't know where these weapons are going, whether they are really lost, or whether there is corruption involved."

As RT reported previously, questions over the Pentagon program have reached President Obama as well, as he recently ordered a review of the entire operation. The probe will determine whether or not police should actually be receiving the equipment they get, the way these weapons are being used, and whether officers are being trained properly.

[operator kos]

Ugh.... I thought this board was populated by radical lefties, not party-line liberals. Maybe I should find a new board where I can hang out with my fellow Alex Jones/tea party blowhards. Apparently that's what I am if I think that self defense is a right.

And BTW 82_28, your smoking has hurt yourself and other people far more than my guns ever will.

[seemslikeadream]

Nine-year-old with Uzi shoots instructor by mistake
A 9-year-old girl accidentally killed an Arizona shooting instructor while he was teaching her how to use an automatic weapon

.

[brainpanhandler]

Ugh.... I thought this board was populated by radical lefties, not party-line liberals. Maybe I should find a new board where I can hang out with my fellow Alex Jones/tea party blowhards. Apparently that's what I am if I think that self defense is a right.

And BTW 82_28, your smoking has hurt yourself and other people far more than my guns ever will.

You're not alone.

[82_28]

Ugh.... I thought this board was populated by radical lefties, not party-line liberals. Maybe I should find a new board where I can hang out with my fellow Alex Jones/tea party blowhards. Apparently that's what I am if I think that self defense is a right.

And BTW 82_28, your smoking has hurt yourself and other people far more than my guns ever will.

How so? I don't smoke around others unless we all happen to find ourselves smoking together. As far as guns, not so much. I have been touched by mass shootings numerous times in life -- Columbine, Capitol Hill and most recently SPU. Shit happening right next to me. My smoking has not done such damage or caused such carnage, hurt and death. In fact in all of the cases "smoking" saved my life because I wouldn't probably have been inside. All the things that are wrong with smoking will never hold a candle to all the things that are wrong with guns and their acceptance. In fact, I have reported two crimes going down in the past few months because I was the only one outside, smoking in front of the house, if you will, pondering shit and noticing shit. Smoking can actually be helpful.

Get rid of your guns and I will agree to not enjoy myself while smoking. Time being, I don't give a shit. I hate guns and "semi-famously" around here, hate pornography as well. So be it. I'm heading out for a smoke and not cleaning my non-existant gun.

[operator kos]

According to the CDC about 443,000 deaths are attributable to smoking every year in the U.S.

According to a pro-gun-control organization about 31,000 people were killed by guns in 2010.

82_28, you typify the main problem with gun control advocates. You can't rely on the hard data, so you come up with bizarre rationales for your behavior and your irrational fear of guns.

@SLAD - likewise, go out and take a look at the hard data. Pulling out one sad story does not prove your point. I could pull up a bunch of stories about people using guns in legitimate self defense situations, but that wouldn't prove my point either.

@BPH - Good to know.

[82_28]

According to the CDC about 443,000 deaths are attributable to smoking every year in the U.S.

According to a pro-gun-control organization about 31,000 people were killed by guns in 2010.

82_28, you typify the main problem with gun control advocates. You can't rely on the hard data, so you come up with bizarre rationales for your behavior and your irrational fear of guns.

Hahaha. Actually no. I don't "typify" shit. I hate guns. That is it. What is so bizarre about hating something that brutally murders entities? I get your fucking point about smoking. That's up to me and I keep it away from others. GUNS ARE THERE TO DO HARM TO OTHERS. There is no point other than to harm people that have no choice in the decision as a gun "owner" for guns. Smoking is fucking social and or contemplative. I could scream/yell "fuck you" with a cig dangling out of my mouth all I want to someone pointing a gun at me or someone and all they do is just pull the trigger, saving me from a life of suffering because of smoking.

Come the fuck on, bro. You cannot equate smoking with prancing around with guns. Totally different. Perhaps I will begin The Non Smoking Gun Owners Guild.



Jesus fucking christ.