Novem5er wrote:How many here have actually come face to face with an evil person?
There aren't any words.
Thanks for those words anyway
kool maudit » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:01 am wrote:The word "windigo" (or "witiko/wetiko") means "he who lives alone". Disregarding for a second the potential reality of the possessing force, something on which I am agnostic, the condition may tangentially relate to the political philosophy of fascism insofar as it warns against departing from the collective, or weakening the group, but the dynamic of individualism versus collectivism in a hostile environment is a human constant rather than a fragment of one 20th century government structure.
I think the windigo is better regarded as a poison brought home from liminal realms, a darkness at the edge of town.
I've read more and more recently about isolation. When people feel removed from personal relationships, all sorts of odd behavior creeps up. I saw a recent study linking drug addiction to isolation. It's important to note that someone can be surrounded by people and still feel isolated. I think your comment about the darkness at the edge of town is important. In this 21st century world of technology, though, the edge of town can be right in the middle.
I know that the evil I've encountered (and mentioned above) was an isolated man. He had a job and coworkers, a kid, and an ex-wife - but he had nobody close to him. He was estranged from his mother, didn't have any contact with his father, only had occasional contact with his kid, and had no friends. He was very sociable and kept busy, but there was nobody he was close to - except my mother in law for a time - and when she left him, he lashed out with violence. Here's the thing, though, he wasn't some obvious lonely creep. He was handsome, again sociable, and always had a girlfriend from what I saw - it's just that he was also a predator, and looking back at it, HE was the center of his universe at all times.
This is not to say that all loners are evil. A lot of us get hurt by the world and pull back.
Novem5er wrote:How many here have actually come face to face with an evil person?
There aren't any words.
Thanks for those words anyway
kool maudit » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:01 am wrote:The word "windigo" (or "witiko/wetiko") means "he who lives alone". Disregarding for a second the potential reality of the possessing force, something on which I am agnostic, the condition may tangentially relate to the political philosophy of fascism insofar as it warns against departing from the collective, or weakening the group, but the dynamic of individualism versus collectivism in a hostile environment is a human constant rather than a fragment of one 20th century government structure.
I think the windigo is better regarded as a poison brought home from liminal realms, a darkness at the edge of town.
I've read more and more recently about isolation. When people feel removed from personal relationships, all sorts of odd behavior creeps up. I saw a recent study linking drug addiction to isolation. It's important to note that someone can be surrounded by people and still feel isolated. I think your comment about the darkness at the edge of town is important. In this 21st century world of technology, though, the edge of town can be right in the middle.
I know that the evil I've encountered (and mentioned above) was an isolated man. He had a job and coworkers, a kid, and an ex-wife - but he had nobody close to him. He was estranged from his mother, didn't have any contact with his father, only had occasional contact with his kid, and had no friends. He was very sociable and kept busy, but there was nobody he was close to - except my mother in law for a time - and when she left him, he lashed out with violence. Here's the thing, though, he wasn't some obvious lonely creep. He was handsome, again sociable, and always had a girlfriend from what I saw - it's just that he was also a predator, and looking back at it, HE was the center of his universe at all times.
This is not to say that all loners are evil. A lot of us get hurt by the world and pull back.
One thing I've been reading about lately is possession and trance. Seems like a lot of early ritualism/shamanism/voodoo/spirit/channeling involves a dynamic between surrendering to spirits or battling/dialoguing with them. Hierarchical/Agrarian Communal based societies seem more into ritualistic surrendering to higher authorities/deities whereas more nomadic/fluid societies have a more performative battling and communing with the deities/spirits. Seems the shaman figure is someone who often is "ruggedly individualistic" and goes off and lives on the edge between the community and the animal/spirit world and acts as a mediator/defender between the people and spiritual world and comes back to reenact or enact his battle to rebalance or hold the line. The more hierarchical societies don't have such a rugged individualist battling with the deities but a priesthood which "manages" the relationship with the deities that they have already surrendered to.
Perhaps sometimes the shamanic person goes off into trance land and doesn't always win the fight against the evil spirits and a form of possession takes place which they bring back to the community upsetting the managed ritual appeasement of the deities that is in place. (Sure, we can sacrifice a man to lady Justice in the electric chair, but cutting someones head off because the voices told you so is just weird, bro.)
Darkness on the edge of town
Well, they're still racing out at the Trestles But that blood it never burned in her veins Now I hear she's got a house up in Fairview And a style she's trying to maintain
Well, if she wants to see me You can tell her that I'm easily found Tell her there's a spot out 'neath Abram's Bridge And tell her there's a darkness on the edge of town There's a darkness on the edge of town
Well, everybody's got a secret Sonny Something that they just can't face Some folks spend their whole lives trying to keep it They carry it with them every step that they take
Till some day they just cut it loose Cut it loose or let it drag 'em down Where no one asks any questions Or looks too long in your face In the darkness on the edge of town In the darkness on the edge of town
Well, now some folks are born into a good life And other folks get it anyway anyhow Well, I lost my money and I lost my wife Them things don't seem to matter much to me now
Tonight I'll be on that hill 'cause I can't stop I'll be on that hill with everything I've got Well, lives on the line where dreams are found and lost I'll be there on time and I'll pay the cost For wanting things that can only be found In the darkness on the edge of town In the darkness on the edge of town
Dreamin' man
I'm a dreamin' man, yes, that's my problem I can't tell when I'm not being real. In the meadow dusk I park my Aerostar With a loaded gun and sweet dreams of you.
I'll always be a dreamin' man I don't have to understand I know it's alright.
I see your curves and I feel your vibrations You dressed in black and white, you lost in the mall I watch you disappear past Club Med Vacations Another sleepless night, a sun that won't fall.
I'll always be a dreamin' man I don't have to understand I know it's alright.
Now the night is gone, a new day is dawning And our homeless dreams go back to the street Another time or place, another civilization Would really make this life feel so complete.
I'll always be a dreamin' man I don't have to understand I know it's alright.
Dreamin' man He's got a problem Dreamin' man Dreamin' man He's got a problem Dreamin' man.
On The Dark Side - Eddie And the Cruisers
The dark side's callin' now Nothin' is real She'll never know just how I feel From out of the shadows She walks like a dream Makes me feel crazy Makes me feel so mean
Ain't nothin' gonna save you From a love that's blind You slip to the dark side Across that line On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, oh yeah
The dark side's callin' now Nothin' is real She'll never know just how I feel From out of the shadows She walks like a dream Makes me feel crazy Makes me feel so mean
Ain't nothin' gonna save you From a love that's blind You slip to the dark side Across that line On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, oh yeah
[Instrumental Interlude]
Ain't nothin' gonna save you From a love that's blind You slip to the dark side Across that line On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, ooooooh yeah
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
Remember too that the windigo is hungry. The darkness within, the isolation is a void that cries for satiety. He will devour you to quiet it, but it cannot be quieted.
It's a good story with a lot of explanatory power.
My problem with invoking spirits or viruses or the Devil in discussions of evil is that it alleviates guilt from human individuals. Oh, it wasn't "him" it was something inside him. Separating the sin from the sinner, etc. "He" would have been normal, but somehow some idea, some spirit, some sickness influenced his actions.
Someone might be isolated and that continued isolation might build dark thoughts and lead to dark deeds, but its still that person. They still made their decision or acted on their impulse.
The dark side's callin' now Nothin' is real She'll never know just how I feel From out of the shadows She walks like a dream Makes me feel crazy Makes me feel so mean
Ain't nothin' gonna save you From a love that's blind You slip to the dark side Across that line On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, oh yeah
The dark side's callin' now Nothin' is real She'll never know just how I feel From out of the shadows She walks like a dream Makes me feel crazy Makes me feel so mean
Ain't nothin' gonna save you From a love that's blind You slip to the dark side Across that line On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, oh yeah
[Instrumental Interlude]
Ain't nothin' gonna save you From a love that's blind You slip to the dark side Across that line On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, oh yeah On the dark side, ooooooh yeah
I like the music, though. Funny I always thought On the Darkside was a Springsteen song Good to know.
Novem5er wrote:My problem with invoking spirits or viruses or the Devil in discussions of evil is that it alleviates guilt from human individuals. Oh, it wasn't "him" it was something inside him. Separating the sin from the sinner, etc. "He" would have been normal, but somehow some idea, some spirit, some sickness influenced his actions.
Someone might be isolated and that continued isolation might build dark thoughts and lead to dark deeds, but its still that person. They still made their decision or acted on their impulse.
Your problem is my problem as well. As I get older, though, a "person" is just another word for a collection of spirits, viruses, devils, ideas, thoughts, deeds, impulses, instincts, influences, etc. and many peoples decisions are actually non-decisions that surrender more and more to that assorted collection. Now, I believe one has to own all these parts, but the framework of not taking responsibility is pretty much the same in both most religious frameworks (I'm all pure and the devil made me do it) and the logical-rational framework that my executive super ego is always aware can always win out and not be bum rushed by the motley crew and lose control (the CEO is always in control and responsible for what happens). Unfortunately, both of those frameworks I think are more how we would like to think we and others operate. And honestly, there is very little support, awareness, means or opportunity for most people to even become aware of these disparate parts, let alone work to integrate them and manage them effectively.
Just look at what happens to most people in long term solitary confinement. If you take someone and isolate them from 20 years and fill their mind only with dark thoughts (or no thoughts) can one really say that when they act on them they alone acted on their own impulses? I agree, for practical purposes, that person is the one who has to be held responsible for what they physically do, but a lot of people are really products of their environmental influences and their innate inability to withstand inner conflicts. We could probably take someone and do the works on them, by not even isolating them but enmeshing them in a negative environment: abusive neglectful parents, horrible neighborhood ghetto and educational access, exposure to crime and drugs, toxic ideologies, etc. all which they have no control or responsibility over for most of their life of these influences and then it would be the rare bird that didn't have actions counter to what they've been trained to do. You can even look at what happens to someone who actually comes from a overall benevolent environment but is only isolated in a comparatively short time (in a cult/church/corporation/terrorist cell/military unit/prison) and exposed to dark thoughts then acts.
I'd like to believe individuals are always responsible for their behavior, because I would like to think each of our personalities, characters, identities, are a complete undividable unit, but as Winston learned in 1984 that is not how the character crumbles. If we are built up from archaic but powerful components and the mind is a fairly new recent organizing phenomena it would make sense that it wouldn't always be in control of the more archaic parts under certain situations, and vice versa. Granted, for the time being if one part acts up and fucks up, the whole party is going to jail.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
Brekin, good stuff. The conflict between good and evil may just be the conflict between the disparate parts of the human mind, much of which is (or all) is influenced by the environment. People are influenced greatly by their upbringing, their community, their peers, or the lack thereof. I think human isolation and being disconnected from meaningful human relationships is dangerous and I think most people suffer this to varying extents. What makes one lonely person start drinking alcohol or another lonely person start fantasizing about murder? I don't know.
Where I draw the line is when we pass blame onto external agents. Oh, there can be external influences from the environment, personal history, etc. Nobody is a vacuum. But specific agents like a virus or a spirit that is separate from the person himself? I don't think so. I'm not sure anyone here is even saying this is the case, but I have heard it argued elsewhere in my life.
"I have a demon inside me!!" No, they don't. They have the same conflicting inner monologue that everyone suffers with, but they're doing a piss-poor job self-managing the conversation.
This story has been updated to include Dr. David Gorski's username on Wikipedia
Wikipedia seems like a good place to get fast information that's at least somewhat reliable, right? Wrong. The truth is that Wikipedia is nothing more than a trove of disinformation and propaganda peddled by industry gatekeepers, intent on maintaining their ominous facades while upholding the lucrative empires that largely enslave us all, i.e. the pharmaceutical industry and its costly vaccine market.
People lack awareness due to domestication programming. Once that program is installed (and it's constantly being updated), every thought is filtered through it. One is no longer an authentic human with one's own unfettered thoughts but unaware that this is the case. Religion seals it and removes any remaining responsibility from the individual while installing a "judge" and gigantic "book of law" in the "flawed" individual's mind. One becomes self-judging and conflicted creating dissatisfaction and disappointment in one's self, but at the same time one becomes "special" and elevated in relation to others who one is also judging. Because we are domesticated and no longer authentic humans, we can't even take care of ourselves unassisted and become dependent upon the institutions of domestication program. This is precisely why "wild" animals are not domesticated but are returned to the habitat as close to their "authentic" state of being as possible. Ruiz describes this process and the shamanic way of ridding oneself of the program which is made up of "agreements" with which we accept the programming bits at a time. The first step is realizing one is under this influence and becoming aware of the processes and how this has affected our mind. Once we are aware we can then look at the program and edit. We can make new agreements based on our own authentic thoughts, and when we start living from our innate integrity as a human we become free of the quagmire of "civilization". The method has then been revealed and we have seen the man behind the curtain. This is not just an academic exercise. It changes everything and not just inside the individual. When the individual changes on this fundamental level, everything else changes in relation to that individual.
Novem5er wrote:Brekin, good stuff. The conflict between good and evil may just be the conflict between the disparate parts of the human mind, much of which is (or all) is influenced by the environment. People are influenced greatly by their upbringing, their community, their peers, or the lack thereof. I think human isolation and being disconnected from meaningful human relationships is dangerous and I think most people suffer this to varying extents. What makes one lonely person start drinking alcohol or another lonely person start fantasizing about murder? I don't know.
Where I draw the line is when we pass blame onto external agents. Oh, there can be external influences from the environment, personal history, etc. Nobody is a vacuum. But specific agents like a virus or a spirit that is separate from the person himself? I don't think so. I'm not sure anyone here is even saying this is the case, but I have heard it argued elsewhere in my life.
"I have a demon inside me!!" No, they don't. They have the same conflicting inner monologue that everyone suffers with, but they're doing a piss-poor job self-managing the conversation.
Yeah, I agree basically on the above on principle, but I do keep the door open for the possibility, and to me it is more of a spectrum that tapers off into the unknown. Its the presumption of 80% of horror movies that some evil external influence can inhabit or direct a person to do things they normally wouldn't do and almost as many goofy comedy/feel good fantasy movies where some benign or mischievous external influence directs them to great or ridiculous things. I can only assume that there's a narrative that has traction because there's a kernel of truth to it, or a truth we want. I mean its the old sociological thing where if people sincerely believes something is true, then it basically becomes true. We see in the animal kingdom parasites hijacking bigger hosts so who is to say it couldn't be possible for more complex animals.
Silly example: I had gerardia once and had to take some heavy duty antibiotics in a foreign country which totally wiped out all my intestinal flora. I wasn't supposed to eat for 5 days to make sure everything was truly dead, which even though I was in quite a bit of stomach pain and discomfort thought would be impossible, but the crazy thing was I didn't have any hunger pains and ended up not eating much of anything for 7 days. I think what happened was the heavy duty antibiotics killed all the sugars, yeasts, starches, flora, etc. basically everything in my intestinal tract, good and bad, which I think may have been causing some hunger pangs which weren't so much real hunger related most of the time.
Now here is something that lives inside me, but is it completely "me"? Is only the good bacteria part of me, because it is more "natural", whereas the bad bacteria and yeast is just a parasite? How much am I responsible for my food behavior if my body is telling me I'm hungry, when some bacteria growth is just playing my hunger system like a violin? How can I determine which hunger pang is a genuine one if the signal I'm getting is internally the same for both? Now of course, it is "me" whose hand is going into the cookie jar and it is "me" putting the cookie in my mouth, but if I'm possibly doing it because some bacteria growth needs more sugar to grow in my gut and has precipitated signals that "make me hungry" and if the bacteria was completely absent there would be no signaling from this external agent it gets all a little murky. To say nothing of similar behavior changes under pregnancy, allergies, drugs, addictions, etc.
There's a lot of Windigo type films out there but this one is pretty interesting. It has a different feel and tone to most films in the "horror" genre and would probably disappoint a splatter-shock fan but I came away liking it and intrigued. There are scary moments and even poetic moments that are kind of outside the norm for such films. If you can get over seeing the kid from Malcolm in the Middle thrown into such a universe it is worth the trip.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
^^^Did ya catch that little pun in the trailer? It says the movie "creates tension and fear out of thin air." Which is of course what an artful Windigo specializes in.
"A mind stretched by a new idea can never return to it's original dimensions." Oliver Wendell Holmes
backtoiam » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:17 pm wrote:^^^Did ya catch that little pun in the trailer? It says the movie "creates tension and fear out of thin air." Which is of course what an artful Windigo specializes in.
Nice, and I guess an artless Windigo dissipates tension and fear into thin air.
True Detective: Season 1: Finale. Never Forget!
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
In my personal first hand experience with someone suffering from a mental illness, I have seen a person behave as if they were possessed. Maybe they were. Science knows very little about the mind, still -- that was one thing I was disheartened to learn, that mental health care is about on the level of "let's bleed him with leeches and see if that fixes things". It's RATHER behind.
My own encounters with the supernatural keeps my mind open.
However, I completely understand Novemb5r's point of view. As much as I can, having not actually been through such a horrible tragedy.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
This story has been updated to include Dr. David Gorski's username on Wikipedia
Wikipedia seems like a good place to get fast information that's at least somewhat reliable, right? Wrong. The truth is that Wikipedia is nothing more than a trove of disinformation and propaganda peddled by industry gatekeepers, intent on maintaining their ominous facades while upholding the lucrative empires that largely enslave us all, i.e. the pharmaceutical industry and its costly vaccine market.
Claims of fraud coming from Wakefield is pretty rich considering he's a fraud himself. He fabricated data to discredit the MMR vaccine (and in the process started the whole insane anti-vaxx movement) so he could sell his competing product. There's a reason he got disbarred, and it's not because big pharma conspired against him, it's because he's a lying sack of shit. He actually fits the evil label pretty well, endangering other people's lives for profit.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
