compared2what? wrote:And while you're at it. Given that you do not yield an inch on any position that you state, I imagine that what you have seen, heard, read, etc., and the energy you put into interpreting it must have been exhaustive. So could you please also tell me the basis in fact and reason that has led you to conclude so firmly that no evidence shakes your unwavering belief in it for that the problem, as you see it, is as you describe it here:
The problem as I see it is that once/whenever a (new?) source of info is found it is subjected to a rigourous test of "does it hold EVERYTHING near and dear to a leftist's heart" fully intact, while the person/organization shares some info with us. The standard (arguably) items that come to mind quickly are, in no particular order, imo:
- racism (applied selectively, ie., caucasions must never utter anything that can be remotely considered racist)
- religion (chris toard. The baby goes out with the dirty bathwater. We automatically assign motives to them, right or wrong, because after all, rhetorically speaking, if they get one of these things so wrong, how on earth could they have good intentions about something else so totally unrelated?
This assures their data is never held under a critical light, but is automatically dismissed.
Thanks. I am leaving the part below intact as you wrote it, and then, for your convenience, broken it down into a handy list form, with specific questions regarding your basis in fact and reason for believing them.
GM Citizen wrote:And so without watering down this thread with some of the issues listed above, I'll keep to the women-as-victims-only issue.
We have seen by the response to 8bit's post, that some folks are ready to pounce on anything that might digress from the leftist principle that women are victims, and that if a woman was a perpetrator, well hell she was probably provoked and had a good reason. There are numerous studies out there, certainly in the US, Canada, and other "western" nations, that prove that females are not only real perpetrators, but that they hold their own in numbers compared to male perpetrators in terms of violence, assault, etc. If I remember correctly, violence within a lesbian relationship exceeds the rates of violence in hetero relationships, but is quickly dismissed for some reason. The discussion is usually turned by a phrase akin to "yeah, but men commit MORE violence",etc., as if that dismisses lesbian-partner violence.
And then we get to the issue of rape. One of the greatest number of victims of rape are pretty much left without a significant voice. Male victims of rape in prison. Apparently, we just don't care about them as a society. After all, they are criminals, and probably deserve it anyways (note sarcasm).
Kanin noted the high incidence of false rape claims. From what I recall reading about some cases in the US, where a woman was found to have made a false rape claim, the worst she might face is a misdemeanour charge. The guy could have been locked up, beaten, even raped, for many long years. She might get 6 months, and often with a recommendation that she get mental help. Hardly fair, really.
Strauss noted the high levels of violence by women. Yet men do not have shelters to go to, or any viable support system, for the most part, unless possibly if they are gay (local gay community resources).
And then there is divorce, and the tried and true tactic of making false accusations against the father, often such as child molestation, etc.
And forget about the media telling you any truth anytime soon. With the propogation of the "rule of thumb", and "more women are assaulted during the Super Bowl" myths, we will not be getting anything substantive to deal with the overall violence problem, from the media.
By the way, the title of this thread is hardly conducive to decent discussion. Perhaps a better one might have been "Why is it PC to paint the woman as victim almost exclusively?"
* Some folks are ready to pounce on anything that might digress from the leftist principle that women are victims, and that if a woman was a perpetrator, well hell she was probably provoked and had a good reason
.
What is your basis in fact and reason for this tendency on the part of some folks being a significant part of the world in which we live? What folks? How many folks? How was this shown by 8bit's experience?
* There are numerous studies out there, certainly in the US, Canada, and other "western" nations, that prove that females are not only real perpetrators, but that they hold their own in numbers compared to male perpetrators in terms of violence, assault, etc.
What studies?
* If I remember correctly, violence within a lesbian relationship exceeds the rates of violence in hetero relationships, but is quickly dismissed for some reason. The discussion is usually turned by a phrase akin to "yeah, but men commit MORE violence",etc., as if that dismisses lesbian-partner violence.
When, where and by whom is this quickly dismissed and how often? To whom does the alleged dismissal do any harm, other than the lesbians? In what fucking way does acknowledging true statistics about acts of violence committed by men constitute discrimination against men who have not committed acts of violence that is in any way related to what women do or do not do to men and/or each other?
It's a fucking insult to the men who are wrongfully imprisoned not to address the cause of their suffering, obviously. Or to misidentify it. I personally attribute it to the actions of the state, in the form of bad cops, bad courts, and the atrocious hellhole that is our penitentiary system. I base this on those actions overwhelmingly being the cause for their imprisonment, and if you'd like me to cite some sources for that, I'll go get them. But I'm hoping that you're aware how people get arrested, go to trial, and get convicted, and in what number of cases these events are set in motion by women and their insistence on being victims. Which is not a very sizeable number. As you surely already know. Having read, heard and seen stuff about it.
* And then we get to the issue of rape. One of the greatest number of victims of rape are pretty much left without a significant voice. Male victims of rape in prison. Apparently, we just don't care about them as a society. After all, they are criminals, and probably deserve it anyways (note sarcasm).
Duly noted. The plight of especially the indigent defendant is, as I said earlier, one that is close to my heart. I do not forget it. I have worked (without success) to get a new trial for a wrongfully imprisoned man. I'm also very opposed to capital punishment, and publicize the issue in general and the causes of some death row inmates in particular to the best of my ability, which is not as great as it used to be. Still. It's not an issue that's on most people's radars at all, and it's a huge political issue to me, so I do what I can. I myself have never been in prison, but I've visited several on more occasions than I wish I'd had any reason to. Rikers, more than any another. Prison is prison and even getting as far as the visiting room in any I've ever been in is like a living death, uniformly. But I've got to say if I had to be in one of them, I'd rather be in Rikers than the Tombs. Which is the aptly nicknamed Manhattan Detention Complex, I should add, since I don't know whether that's local or general knowledge. It's a fucking nightmare. Between 2001 and 2006 it was formally named the Bernard B. Kerik. Complex, I might as well mention, for its trivia value.
In any event: Yes. This is a horrible problem, and not simply because of rape. In fact, I doubt that most of the imprisoned population would define the tragedy of their lives as primarily rape-related. And I personally, though it is one of my causes, have never put any effort into trying to diminish the enormity of the injustice going on here by working to reduce the instances of male-on-male rape among prisoners. It doesn't strike me as a very efficient way to address it. Or a useful paradigm in which to understand it. However, if you feel otherwise, you feel otherwise. I still don't see how this is related to the actions of women, and look forward to your basis in reason and fact for associating the two issues.
* Kanin noted the high incidence of false rape claims. From what I recall reading about some cases in the US, where a woman was found to have made a false rape claim, the worst she might face is a misdemeanour charge. The guy could have been locked up, beaten, even raped, for many long years. She might get 6 months, and often with a recommendation that she get mental help. Hardly fair, really.
Alright. Now we're talking turkey. How high is the incidence of false rape claims? And how many of the unjustly accused go to prison or trial as a result of them? What percentage of men imprisoned on sexual assault charges are there as a result of false rape claims? Citations please. And I really hope you have some, and that they're substantial. Because otherwise, I have to agree with Occult Means Hidden. One of your reason-and-fact based beliefs would appear to be a wholly or partially imaginary scenario.
* Strauss noted the high levels of violence by women. Yet men do not have shelters to go to, or any viable support system, for the most part, unless possibly if they are gay (local gay community resources).
How high? How large a sample? Any demographic indicators? What kind of violence? Is there any data showing that large numbers of men have no refuge from abusive homes? By the way, women's shelters are not exactly spas. Some of them are not a whole lot better than prison.
* And then there is divorce, and the tried and true tactic of making false accusations against the father, often such as child molestation, etc.
Dude, there's a whole world of hell in that "etc." There is divorce. You are so right. Please tell me your rational and factual basis for believing that men falsely accused of child molestation by the women who are divorcing them is a pressing and urgent social issue, to which not enough attention is devoted in the form of frequent broadcast television news segments to truly represent awareness of the greater size and severity of the problem that divorce represents to men than it does to women.
* And forget about the media telling you any truth anytime soon. With the propogation of the "rule of thumb", and "more women are assaulted during the Super Bowl" myths, we will not be getting anything substantive to deal with the overall violence problem, from the media.
I don't think I've ever heard that Super Bowl myth. I might have, and forgotten it, because I do actually care about violent crimes every day of the year, and am therefore not in need of a holiday reminder. On the truth-from-media point in a larger sense, though: No argument here.
* By the way, the title of this thread is hardly conducive to decent discussion. Perhaps a better one might have been "Why is it PC to paint the woman as victim almost exclusively?"
Start your own thread. I'm still not out to get you. And I'm also not agitated. But you are not a very friendly or cooperative poster yourself. If you were gracious to me, I would be much more inclined to continue being gracious to you. FYI..
As it stands, you've made a lot of claims, and offered very little in support of them. You indicate that these claims are evils attributable to women. And you are unmoved by any evidence concerning any problem faced by women. I, on the other hand, am, believe it or not, interested in many more injustices than sexist injustices. As demonstrated in part on this thread, but also by the entire scope of issues I address on a regular basis on these boards. I do occasionally speak for groups of which I am a member. And feminism is important to me. But it's not the sole lens through which I view all things. It's not even on my top three most-urgent-major-injustices-happening-right-now list. I completely fucking resent your smugness, your rigidity and your refusal to hear my point of view. I listened to yours as openly as I could. And though we share some common ground in terms of injustices about which we care very much, your understanding of those is just as offensive to me as your understanding (or failure of understanding) wrt male-on-female rape. Especially that prison thing. Shame on you for making that a rape issue. Do you have any idea at all how badly brutalized men are by the justice and penitentiary system and in what ways?
Anyway. You've been a totally unaccommodating, obstructive jerk for the length of this thread, and if you have any concern for anything other than the rightness of your own opinion, I'd be very happy to know something good of you. I would far prefer to have comrades than jerks with whom to discuss issues of mutual interest. So please let me know what makes you so goddamn sure of yourself and your understanding of the world's problems that it overshadows and ought to preempt any discussion of what rape means to women in the culture you and I share. I'm eager to hear it.
