Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:33 am

sunny wrote:I suppose if we let them, and if they really really wanted to, fascists could contaminate every issue progressives and leftists care about. Then we can sit back and complain how we can't do anything about anything because the fascists might show up.


Ridiculous. All you have to do is say:

Fuck the fascists.


There are those here like eyeno, who want to say (when he's saying anything coherent) that we should tolerate fascists (and racists, etc.). Unite with fascists. Don't even name the fascists, because it's fascist to name things! Share your common humanity with fascists. If there is a real enemy, it consists of super-top-level controllers who are never to be named!

I'm happy to say that this line of thinking is odious and eminently dispensable. Nothing is lost, much is gained by keeping distance from it.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby AlicetheKurious » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:08 am

Searcher08 wrote:I think the irony in this is that I cant imagine a more infiltrated group in the US than Palestinian Rights organisations, except for, maybe the far right.

Seriously, the degree of infiltration in the marginally less fascistic UK into green organisations, animal rights etc was enormous - so I wouldnt bet that that local 'Palestinian Rights' group is all it seems.


Absolutely! In fact, it's so true that it didn't occur to me that it needed to be said. But it really did. Palestinian "activist" groups, depending on how effective they are, are MAJOR targets of all sorts of infiltration and sabotage -- by zionists, government agents, sure, but also by all sorts of weirdos and pathetic individuals and losers. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

Some organizations don't even need to be infiltrated, because they themselves are 'honeypots' to attract and then discredit or demoralize activists.

Your advice to pay attention to your "alarm bells" is good, but unfortunately it's very hard to persuade others based on your own feelings, especially if they're oblivious to the clues that triggered them. And, like I said, it's hard to tell whether the individual in question is deliberately trying to sabotage the group, or is just an asshole.

I tend to trust my own instincts in such matters, so I've never actually sat down to compile a check-list before, but here goes (I hope others will feel free to add to this list, drawing on their own experience):

    1. Clarity vs obfuscation: the first job of any Palestinian, or other, solidarity group should be to provide as many people as possible with the accurate information they need to counter the fog of disinformation, lies and deliberate omissions to which they're constantly exposed by the mainstream media, starting, of course, with your own membership. This information should be vetted carefully for credibility and then presented as simply and clearly and attractively as possible, and always in a way that demonstrates how this information directly or indirectly affects the people you're addressing.

    Your alarm bells should ring if someone: consistently tries to confuse people by introducing impenetrably vague or esoteric words or terms, or trying to make issues seem far more complicated than they are, and require specialized knowledge to understand. Even worse, if this person tries to muddy the very clear and simple moral issues by seeding every discussion with hidden trip-wires of insinuation and barely-veiled accusations against others to create a poisonous, paranoid environment and scare people away.

    2. Focus on Results: it seems self-evident, but the focus of any team or group should be to get things done: whether arming members with accurate information and effective arguments, raising public awareness of specific issues, organizing a special event, or establishing links with other teams or groups for future cooperation. Discussions should be conducted so that ideas and information can be freely exchanged, and fine-tuned, then lead to clear conclusions about the group's immediate goals and the next step, for example assignments for each member. Decisions concerning the group as a whole should be made by consensus, but this should not limit individual members' freedom to engage in other activities on their sole responsibility and in their own name.

    Your alarm bells should ring if someone: consistently derails discussions by introducing irrelevant issues and initiating endless arguments that frustrate and wear people down but leave them no better informed or able to reach a consensus. If you find yourself or others repeating the same or similar arguments over time in different meetings without ever resolving the issue or deciding what to do next, you've entered a loop and are wasting your time and energy. If the same individual initiates this each time, then your alarm bells should definitely ring, whether he/she is doing this on purpose or not.

    3. Egos: different people have different strengths, and in an effective group these strengths will all be mobilized to serve the group's purpose and accomplish its goals most effectively. All members of the group should feel that they are learning and evolving and gaining valuable experience as a result of their participation. They should also feel empowered by and valued for their contribution to the group effort, and any accomplishments should be credited to the group as a whole.

    Your alarm bells should ring if someone: positions themselves as a self-appointed leader or lofty moral arbitrator by trying to intimidate others, or "toot their own horn" by claiming some superior knowledge, experience or qualifications, especially if such claims are unsupported or even belied by his or her actions. If someone consistently puts others on the defensive or uses other bullying tactics in the group, either this person is exploiting the group to flatter his or her own ego, or trying to steer it in a direction that will lead nowhere, or worse.

    4. Solidarity: "solidarity" begins at home. If a group or team is divided internally and its members do not trust or feel comfortable with each other, it won't accomplish much, or last very long. Members should feel free to brainstorm, to question or criticize ideas and get feedback from others that addresses the immediate issue in a rational and informed way, free from personal attacks or insults. Similarly, members should respect others' right to think for themselves when making proposals or suggestions, and accept relevant criticism.

    Your alarm bells should ring if someone: causes you to refrain from speaking your mind, out of fear that what you say will be misunderstood, and will lead to a personal attack. Your alarm bells should ring even more loudly if you find yourself refraining from speaking up in defense of someone whom you feel has been unfairly attacked because you fear that doing so will make you a target, as well.

    5. Independence: The smaller the group, and the less hierarchical its structure, the easier it is to maintain its cohesiveness and integrity. And vice versa. Small groups that regularly join together with others on an ad hoc basis to collaborate on specific issues and goals, in my opinion, are the most effective and least vulnerable to infiltration and sabotage. Small, independent groups are most familiar with their own context and can fine-tune their message and priorities accordingly. They're less likely to get bogged down by conflicts and issues that are irrelevant in their immediate context, or find themselves forced to waste time and energy defending decisions and actions that have nothing to do with them.

    Your alarm bells should ring if someone: keeps trying to impose external values, goals and procedures on your group, or implies that anybody who engages in solidarity activities thereby assumes the guilt for any wrongs committed by other groups, including groups which may indeed have been infiltrated and sabotaged or even created for that very purpose.

    Similarly, you should be very wary of individuals who enter your group and then try to get it to permanently merge with a larger organization, especially if the latter has a hierarchical structure and rules, in which your own group's freedom to make its own decisions and set its own priorities will be minimized.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:45 am

Just a 'drive by', Alice, but I wanted to say 'Thank You' . Pure gold.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:14 am

Hmmm- let's see... so none of the people who disagree with keeping the Palestine solidarity movement even a little bit separate from even the most extreme racists and fascists who want to join it, is currently working with that movement in any sort of concrete, organized way?
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Sounder » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:14 am

Jack wrote...
No. Do you really think choosing to break your own leg is the right way to win a boxing match? The point is, David Icke shouldn't even be in this discussion. The point is, fuck David Icke.


It would seem more appropriate to admonish AD for the introduction of the facile Icke stink meme, given that he introduced it after the reasonable, 'OK how much do I gotta pay for me to own the govt', Adelson article that Alice posted, and searcher08 response and comment on the article on pg. 9.

Is it unreasonable to think that we might stick to the thread theme of the Israel lobby, sans the inclusion of the Icke trigger?

Often times one issue people are right on particulars yet they may be wildly wrong on the big picture because the imperative that dedicates them to their issue requires that they forever make mountains out of molehills.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:28 am

Sounder wrote:Jack wrote...
No. Do you really think choosing to break your own leg is the right way to win a boxing match? The point is, David Icke shouldn't even be in this discussion. The point is, fuck David Icke.


It would seem more appropriate to admonish AD for the introduction of the facile Icke stink meme, given that he introduced it after the reasonable, 'OK how much do I gotta pay for me to own the govt', Adelson article that Alice posted, and searcher08 response and comment on the article on pg. 9.

Is it unreasonable to think that we might stick to the thread theme of the Israel lobby, sans the inclusion of the Icke trigger?


I don't have time to go back and look through the whole thread, but if true, then anyone introducing Icke as a non-sequitur is a culprit. No doubt. The proper response is to say it's irrelevant to topic. But it's just as much a problem if someone steps up in a defense of Icke, or to say golly-gee-let's-be-tolerant-of-everyone especially on "our side," or to make bogus spiritual posts that urge us to drop distinctions with regard to fascists and racists because hey, we all drink the same glass of water.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:41 am

I am not here to defend Icke...just his right to exist and my right to notice...and move forward on to the truth....my truth as i see it...



The deception with tact
Just what are you trying to say
You've got a blank face, which irritates
Communicate, pull out your party piece
You see dimensions in two
State your case with black or white
But when one little cross
Leads to shots, grit your teeth
You run for cover so discreet
Why don't they

Do what they say, say what you mean
Oh well, one thing leads to another
You told me something wrong
I know I listen too long
But then one thing leads to another

The impression that you sell
Passes in and out like a scent
But the long face that you see
Comes from living close to your fears
If this is up, then I'm up
But you're running out of sight
You've seen your name on the walls
And when one little bump
Leads to shock miss a beat
You run for cover and there's heat
Why don't they

Do what they say, say what they mean
One thing leads to another
You told me something wrong
I know I listen too long
But then one thing leads to another
Yeah, yeah, yeah

One thing leads to another

Then it's easy to believe
Somebody's been lying to me
But when the wrong word goes in the right ear
I know you've been lying to me
It's getting rough, off the cuff
I've got to say enough's enough

Bigger the harder he falls
But when the wrong antidote
Is like a bulge on the throat
You run for cover in the heat
Why don't they

Do what they say, say what they mean
One thing leads to another
You told me something wrong
I know I listen too long
But then one thing leads to another
Yeah, yeah

One thing leads to another...


1994




Connect-the-Dots: Holistic Weltanschauung

By Mankh (Walter E. Harris III). Axis of Logic
Axis of Logic
Thursday, Feb 9, 2012

“What a rag-bag of singular happenings! But surely the most valuable hunting-ground that ever was given to a student of the unusual!”

- Sherlock Holmes

Far more disconcerting than the recent closings of big chain bookstores is the wave of destruction and censorship of books and information. Ray Bradbury’s 1953 novel and subsequent movie, Fahrenheit 451, portrays a futuristic world where firemen routinely take on the job of burning books, the title representing the temperature at which paper bursts into flame.

While on one level, book availability is now greater than ever -- e-books, used-book sales online, and a revival of small independent stores that dotted the landscape before the chain stores blotted it -- on another level, is the rearing of a mindless book-eating head, perhaps what Lewis Carroll had in mind when penning: “Beware the Jabberwock my son!”

Some of the Occupy Wall Street/Zuccotti Park People’s Library books were trashed during the NYPD’s raid in November of 2011.1 The recent firebombing of the Institut d’Egypte2 has put books and historical documents in jeopardy. And perhaps most publicized is Tucson, Arizona, high schools’ banning of Mexican American studies, hence books.3 Whether deliberate or incidental, whether conspiracy or coincidence, this pattern reflects a desire to squelch, or eliminate, knowledge, art, and inter-cultural exchange. This, however, is not new.

A quick historical look reveals that Homo sapiens have been wrestling with the issue for millennia. Examples: the burning of the Ancient Library of Alexandria, “book burning following the 1973 coup that installed the Pinochet regime in Chile, obliteration of the Library of Baghdad (1258), the burning of books and burying of scholars under China’s Qin Dynasty, the destruction of Aztec codices by Itzcoatl, and the Nazi book burnings.”4

Another notable suppression helps explain some of China’s more recent turning away from book wisdom and toward a rampant march of industrialization: “After the Communists took over China in 1949, the I Ching was denounced as a book of feudalism and superstition. It was banished from the market, and reading it was not allowed.”5 The author of the translation, The Complete I Ching, Taoist Master Alfred Huang, studied underground. The I Ching is one of the most influential and best-selling books of all time.

In the e-burning department, China is known for filtering web content. In June of 2009, “On the eve of the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square revolt, China is censoring information about the demonstrations on the Internet. Reporters Without Borders said this week that Chinese media cannot refer to the incident, which took place June 4, 1989, and information has been suppressed so effectively that most young Chinese are unaware of the event, which led to the deaths of hundreds of demonstrators.”6

While now seeming prophetic, Bradbury’s story wasn’t totally futuristic to begin with.

The “New York Society for the Suppression of Vice,” founded in 1873, advocated book-burning. Vice . . . vice . . . where have I heard that word in the news recently? 21st century-ish... Ah! “The Vice and Virtue Ministry was a government department during the reign of the Taliban in Afghanistan. It set and enforced the moral standards required to be followed in society. Utilizing a squad of over 30,000 men, shopkeepers were forced to close during prayer time, video and cassette tapes were banned, television and kite-flying were outlawed.”7 Oh yeah, those are the people that supposedly hated America for its freedoms.

The Unusual Becomes Usual

It is helpful to note what The Powers That Be wish to exclude. One, they don’t want people to peacefully assemble (hence the wave of raids on Occupy encampments), and two, they don’t want people’s hearts and minds to learn different approaches to reality. Again, not much new here, as much of all history is built on deliberate amnesia; we are trained to, uh, what’s that word, oh yeah, forget . . . because remembering the truth is a powerful thing! Memory can be painful, too, yet is part of the path to recovery.

Charles Hoy Fort, who lived from 1874 to 1932, researched and wrote about those who are forgotten and excluded. Fort considered modern science the new religion and he sought to resurrect the “unusual” by showing that it was, in fact, usual, or simply, a part of the fabric of Existence that much of science so readily ignored (in order to prove its theories).

Fort’s The Book of the Damned begins:

A PROCESSION of the damned.

By the damned, I mean the excluded.

We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded.

Battalions of the accursed, captained by pallid data that I have exhumed, will march. You'll read them -- or they’ll march. Some of them livid and some of them fiery and some of them rotten.

Some of them are corpses, skeletons, mummies, twitching, tottering, animated by companions that have been damned alive. There are giants that will walk by, though sound asleep. There are things that are theorems and things that are rags: they’ll go by like Euclid arm in arm with the spirit of anarchy. Here and there will flit little harlots. Many are clowns. But many are of the highest respectability. Some are assassins. There are pale stenches and gaunt superstitions and mere shadows and lively malices: whims and amiabilities. The naïve and the pedantic and the bizarre and the grotesque and the sincere and the insincere, the profound and the puerile.8

To give but one example of the “excluded” that Fort researched voluminously (before there was Internet access!): “Scientific American, July 12, 1873: “A shower of frogs which darkened the air and covered the ground for a long distance is the reported result of a recent rainstorm at Kansas City, Mo.” As to having been there “in the first place”: Little frogs found in London, after a heavy storm, July 30, 1838. (Notes and Queries, 8-7-437); Little toads found in a desert, after a rainfall (Notes and Queries, 8-8-493)."9

The unexplained makes us slow down, take time to ponder, and attempt to understand. On the surface, the news may appear to be the mere reporting of isolated events, yet as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s consulting detective reminds us: we must study the “unusual” . . . so as to connect the dots. Two wrongs still don’t make a right, but several unusuals can make a usual.

Weltanschauung: from the German, Welt = world & Anschauung = view

Reflective of Fort’s approach, is the following quote from a recent article by Adrian Salbuchi:

“It’s high time we make the necessary quantum leaps that will allow us to start joining the dots. We need to move away from silo mentality paradigms, and towards a much more holistic Weltanschauung. We have become too 'specialised,' which leads to narrow-mindedness. We talk about finance but never join the dots on its geopolitical overtones. We talk about politics but are blind to underlying social forces. We think Hollywood is only about 'entertainment,' not realising how they implant ideas and behaviour patterns into our collective psyche.”10

Mistreatment of books and related information sources is but one category, a dot that connects to a wider system of suppression. Basic guidelines for playing the educational game of connect- the-dots (so as to avoid suppression of one’s consciousness and lifestyle) include: notice repeated storylines and taglines; follow the money; observe the lineage, the people, the behaviors. An example:

“Japanese anti-nuclear protesters defied a government order Friday to vacate the area in front of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry in Tokyo’s Kasumigaseki. Protesters have been occupying the Ministry grounds since Sept. 11, 2011.... Maekawa said the protesters have been technically breaking the law since Sept. 29, but METI effectively allowed them to stay because 'people can have different opinions.' However, the ministry changed its attitude because the protesters kept using open flames to cook and keep warm despite METI's admonishments.”11

This reflects a similar progression of events and complaint from the NYPD before raiding Zuccotti Park, as city law prevents such outdoor cooking. (It was ok to beat protesters with clubs, but god forbid they should burn themselves!) I don’t know for sure, but the similarity of NYC and Kasumigaseki district guidelines smacks of orders or protocol coming from . . . somewhere. As for the Occupy protests in the US: “Although laws and municipal ordinances vary from city to city, there is a consistency in the tactics being used to stifle the movement.”12

For better, for worse, For richer, for poorer

Connecting the dots can reveal both the positive and the negative.

Sigmund Freud’s nephew Edward Bernays ushered in the modern era of public relations and propaganda, yet “Sir Robert Heath’s Patent 5 Charles 1st; October, 30 1629” shows the mindset of colonizing, Christianizing, and consumeristic madness as nothing new:

“…yet hitherto untild, neither inhabited by ours or the subjects of any other Christian king, Prince or state But some parts of it inhabited by certain Barbarous men who have not any knowledge of the Divine Dietye) He being about to lead thither a Colonye of men large & plentifull, professing the true religion; seduously & industriously applying themselves to the culture of the sayd lands & to merchandising to be performed by industry & at his owne charges & others by his example.”13

A negative example of lineage is that Hitler got some ideas for concentration camps from the US’ Indian reservations aka POW camps . . . and on to Guantanamo.

A positive example of lineage is that Henry David Thoreau, who spent time all by himself in the woods, was a big influence on Gandhi, who helped un-Empire his people, and Martin Luther King, Jr., who tried to. And today’s protest movements are ever-inspired by those who have already walked the trail.

Connecting the dots is more likely enhanced by using both left and right brain, finding facts as well as following a hunch or intuition because something sounds . . . not quite accurate. The Lakota phrase, Mitakuye Oyasin, typically translated as “All My Relations,” reminds us of the inherent connection of EVERYthing. Learning to think and see the world as such, enhances one’s ability to connect the dots, rather than getting trapped into isolated corners. Not wanting to feel alone is a basic human instinct that makes connecting with others that much more enjoyable. And so it goes with information.

Rather than being played a sucker by the Three-card Monte System, you too can play connect-the-dots and help find out what’s going on behind the scenes, yet actually right before our very eyes.
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:52 am

JackRiddler wrote:
Sounder wrote:Jack wrote...
No. Do you really think choosing to break your own leg is the right way to win a boxing match? The point is, David Icke shouldn't even be in this discussion. The point is, fuck David Icke.


It would seem more appropriate to admonish AD for the introduction of the facile Icke stink meme, given that he introduced it after the reasonable, 'OK how much do I gotta pay for me to own the govt', Adelson article that Alice posted, and searcher08 response and comment on the article on pg. 9.

Is it unreasonable to think that we might stick to the thread theme of the Israel lobby, sans the inclusion of the Icke trigger?


I don't have time to go back and look through the whole thread, but if true, then anyone introducing Icke as a non-sequitur is a culprit. No doubt. The proper response is to say it's irrelevant to topic. But it's just as much a problem if someone steps up in a defense of Icke, or to say golly-gee-let's-be-tolerant-of-everyone especially on "our side," or to make bogus spiritual posts that urge us to drop distinctions with regard to fascists and racists because hey, we all drink the same glass of water.

As a response to slimmouse- who clearly is influenced by David Icke- when he starts introducing malarkey related to the House of Rothschild- it's not a non-sequitur.

David Icke is clearly one of those people who are bad for the Palestinian solidarity movement- so if we want that movement to enjoy successes, then we in that movement should draw some kind of line regarding people who promote really wacky and/or bigoted ideas.





.
Last edited by American Dream on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:59 am

American Dream wrote:
David Icke is clearly one of those people who are bad for the Palestinian solidarity movement- so if we want that movement to enjoy successes, then we in that movement should draw some kind of line regarding people who promote really wacky and/or bigoted ideas.



are you serious? really? you give David way more power than he deserves

is this Icke's work? Who's the bigot here? Deception with tact
Image
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby eyeno » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:04 am

JackRiddler wrote:
sunny wrote:I suppose if we let them, and if they really really wanted to, fascists could contaminate every issue progressives and leftists care about. Then we can sit back and complain how we can't do anything about anything because the fascists might show up.


Ridiculous. All you have to do is say:

Fuck the fascists.


There are those here like eyeno, who want to say (when he's saying anything coherent) that we should tolerate fascists (and racists, etc.). Unite with fascists. Don't even name the fascists, because it's fascist to name things! Share your common humanity with fascists. If there is a real enemy, it consists of super-top-level controllers who are never to be named!

I'm happy to say that this line of thinking is odious and eminently dispensable. Nothing is lost, much is gained by keeping distance from it.



Whats wrong today jacky ol boy? You bored? I said no such and you know it. You're just turning what I said upside down and backwards because you are spoiling for a fight. You're an agitator. My point is the same point others are making in this thread. We both know it. Grow up jack.

Besides, you have already outed yourself.

jackriddler wrote:
No compromise is possible on this point, white boy.



You can continue to agitate and flip what I say backwards in an effort to get shit started, and the rest of us will sit back and laugh at you for doing it. Its your call.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:35 am

American Dream wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:
Sounder wrote:Jack wrote...
No. Do you really think choosing to break your own leg is the right way to win a boxing match? The point is, David Icke shouldn't even be in this discussion. The point is, fuck David Icke.


It would seem more appropriate to admonish AD for the introduction of the facile Icke stink meme, given that he introduced it after the reasonable, 'OK how much do I gotta pay for me to own the govt', Adelson article that Alice posted, and searcher08 response and comment on the article on pg. 9.

Is it unreasonable to think that we might stick to the thread theme of the Israel lobby, sans the inclusion of the Icke trigger?


I don't have time to go back and look through the whole thread, but if true, then anyone introducing Icke as a non-sequitur is a culprit. No doubt. The proper response is to say it's irrelevant to topic. But it's just as much a problem if someone steps up in a defense of Icke, or to say golly-gee-let's-be-tolerant-of-everyone especially on "our side," or to make bogus spiritual posts that urge us to drop distinctions with regard to fascists and racists because hey, we all drink the same glass of water.

[size=110]As a response to slimmouse- who clearly is influenced by David Icke- when he starts introducing malarkey related to the House of Rothschild- it's not a non-sequitur.

David Icke is clearly one of those people who are bad for the Palestinian solidarity movement- so if we want that movement to enjoy successes, then we in that movement should draw some kind of line regarding people who promote really wacky and/or bigoted ideas.


Yet again you turn this into an Icke discussion, with the same tropes that get

a) branded with Far Right 'contamination' meme which as I mentioned is only one way of thinking about the Far Right and a rather weak one at that

and
b) Assertions about Icke that IMHO have no basis in anything except your head and which leave me with a choice of
EITHER engaging there and then, thereby derailing the thread
OR Not getting into an Icke argument, allowing what I see as your non-fact based information to megaphone others points of view

and
c) Avoiding like the plague the Original Post.

So RIGHT NOW can we please re-focus on the Original Post????
If we want to talk about
a) Palestinian activism in the West
b) Far Right dangers
c) Rothschilds
d) David Icke

what about setting a new thread for each of those areas???

:angelwings: :angelwings: :angelwings: :angelwings: :angelwings: :angelwings:
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby sunny » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:21 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
sunny wrote:I suppose if we let them, and if they really really wanted to, fascists could contaminate every issue progressives and leftists care about. Then we can sit back and complain how we can't do anything about anything because the fascists might show up.


Ridiculous. All you have to do is say:

Fuck the fascists.


There are those here like eyeno, who want to say (when he's saying anything coherent) that we should tolerate fascists (and racists, etc.). Unite with fascists. Don't even name the fascists, because it's fascist to name things! Share your common humanity with fascists. If there is a real enemy, it consists of super-top-level controllers who are never to be named!

I'm happy to say that this line of thinking is odious and eminently dispensable. Nothing is lost, much is gained by keeping distance from it.


Of course it's ridiculous. But it seems to me some people are strongly suggesting we stay out of it altogether. I can't speak for everyone but these debates are coming across to me as badgering us not to even enter into discussions of I/P/Israel Lobby for fear of fascist contamination. Only the real problem is we can't enter into these discussions without fear of being badgered to death, period.

We're all adults here, and the vast majority of us are committed leftists in one form or another. We know fascism when we see it, smell it, feel it. We don't have to be told every other post in these threads how to spot it and steer clear of it, a distraction that is perpetually preventing us from talking about the core issues of Israel and it's influence over US policies. We, as individuals, resist fascism every day, we're not about to join organizations or discussion forums that cater to a fascist mindset. We're fucking HERE, at RI, the web's premiere ANTI-fascist website trying to figure out ways to defeat it. Now please let's just do it.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:53 pm

The main point for me- and I am assuming that many/most people here do value left wing principles- is that if you had been in the trenches working with the campaigns that are happening now for justice in Palestine and for Palestinians- you would see things differently.

You would see that the "New Anti-Semitism" scam has been used again and again- with considerable effect- to stop good organizing efforts in their tracks.

This is my experience- this is what I have seen again and again here in the United States- and the implications should be obvious.

We do need to tell the truth, we do need to be clearly principled in all we do- but we certainly do need to avoid the more egregious wacko and bigoted ideas, people and organizations.

This, once again, is what I would call basic common sense.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:55 pm

American Dream wrote:
We do need to tell the truth, we do need to be clearly principled in all we do- but we certainly do need to avoid the more egregious wacko and bigoted ideas, people and organizations.

This, once again, is what I would call basic common sense.[/size]



Why stop at Icke then? You allow yourself to post Friedman
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:58 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:
American Dream wrote:
We do need to tell the truth, we do need to be clearly principled in all we do- but we certainly do need to avoid the more egregious wacko and bigoted ideas, people and organizations.

This, once again, is what I would call basic common sense.[/size]



Why stop at Icke then? You allow yourself to post Friedman

I think it's pretty clear I have a strong critique of Friedman and I wouldn't post material that supports him with some strong criticism attached- or at minimum, several caveats...
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