MC and delusions (loads of TRIGGERS)

[American Dream]

How strong is the case for people's minds being messed with by covert use of EM technologies?

The best sources of information I can think of (e.g. Cheryl Welsh at Mind Freedom) can only muster up convincing evidence that it could be possible that this is happening now. Then there's the really bad sources that just seem like flypaper for people with delusions...

Assuming that there is good evidence that such secretive programs are going on now, is there any way to reliably evaluate the claims of a given individual?

It seems like there should be ways to physically measure such attacks, though I don't personally know of anyone who has verifiably done so.


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[Project Willow]

It's clever to ask people not to be offended when you're being offensive.

Not really, but thanks for the compliment. I've learned the hard way that just about any comment or question I ask on these threads is seen as offensive, so I've basically decided to just give up and give in and go ahead and say what's honestly on my mind. I knew there would be some antipathy on this one, but I bit down hard and posted it anyway.

Of course you did, our resident skeptic ala ProfPan reborn, or is it scorned?
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=24835&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120

You are way off, not to mention ascribing hollow and grandiose motives to people who are simply trying to make sense of the oddities of their world and their lives.

Oh, c'mon Willow - there's certainly been discussion here before on the phenomenon of the MC Superstars like Taylor and O'Brian - hanging with Rosanne and such. (LBO, yes, I've noticed that they are viewed skeptically here, but in the wider context of the public face of MC survivors, less so.) It's no big leap to question the quasi-social hierarchy within the culture of survivorship on this board vis-avis the other claimants to the label of the "mind controlled". Or to ask whether such a hierarchy might not be based upon degrees of believability or types mental illness. These things are routinely stigmatised everywhere, as you note; when I see it here, I shouldn't question it? Besides, I wasn't really referencing you - you had made a very equitable and balanced statement in response to my question upthread which I understood and agreed with entirely.

I actually have a sense of loyalty, so I will say that you are again assuming nefarious motive where only questioning and perhaps human frailty exists. Cut it out.

The suggestion was to not be judgmental of individual reports directly to the person doing the reporting, to people you encounter and have exchanges with here on the board.

Fair enough, but I assume that suggestion doesn't extend to excusing the making of generalised dismissive comments regarding the legitimacy of trama-based MC survivor reports, such as false memory arguments and such. Actually, I don't really have to assume that; it's been made very clear on these threads time and again. So I wouldn't say the issue is quite so cut and dried as boiling down to only the realm of interpersonal confrontations. The theory sounds good, but in practise, the strictures are a lot less narrowly defined.

Here's the deal, I have to live day in and day out with people of all sorts questioning my sanity, in public and in private venues, because of the assertions I make about my life experience. However, I don't generally have to do that here. I don't have to do that here as much because the owner of this venue has laid down rules proscribing behavior that makes such questioning less appreciated.

And I feel relatively certain that individuals under the duress of what they consider electronic harassment or gangstalking would be equally offended to hear their plight ghettoized as delusional, especially by persons with whom they might envison a political solidarity based on commonalities of possible goals.

Nope, there is no ghettoizing going on here, on the contrary, and I suggest this a peculiar projection of yours. Listen to Lily's story who thought she was an abductee until someone gave her some information which she found empowering and life changing. None of the alternate posited explanations for the experiences of e harassment survivors is offered in a derogatory fashion nor is it meant to minimize or ignore their suffering.

[barracuda]

You know Willow, I had a nice talk with Dave and I think he's right - it really is none of my business. Peace out.

[Cordelia]

By the way DeltaDawn, you might be able to answer a question which has plagued me for years: what is that flower you have on?

[quote="barracuda"]Wait, what songs from the seventies? Link?[/quote

I have too much respect for D.D. and this thread to bite the bait by providing a link.

[DeltaDawn]

Wow, what a surprise this morning to find where this thread went to.

Not to feed more fuel but Barracuda, what are you thinking??? What I've seen of your history here and where you went here are not consistant and I'm hoping you just had a bad day.

But to satisfy your quick quips...."Could it be a faded rose from days gone by?" But Really??? you truly don't understand or grasp what MKUltra is all about, because many have pm'd and knew as soon as I came here what DD truly meant. You brought up Cathy O'Brian, now read what she helped write...then maybe you wouldn't have to ask such juvenile questions. Now the smart ass me wants to say, watch out this rose has thorns

[Free]

Not too long ago, it seemed almost impossible to have a discussion about mind control around here without the thread being bogged down or destroyed by trollish antics and attacks.

For that reason, I was pleased and impressed about the depth of the discussion on this thread, and was especially happy about the new posters and that non-survivors like Joe H., Col. Quisp, 82...28 (right #'s?) and others were participating.

After this I'll drop it and return to the topic, but I really don't get barracuda. I certainly didn't appreciate how he teamed up with other posters in the past to attack me, but lately he's seemed really okay, non offensive and adding a lot of levity to the environment, so I thought that maybe I had been mistaken about him.

Maybe it's just attention-seeking on his part, i.e. a desire to deviate the thread into a discussion centered around or about barracuda instead of one about vital issues... but I agree DeltaDawn, after all his reading on the subject and after getting to know us for this long, how can he continue to insult and condescend in this way?

Anyway, for anyone who wants to talk to or about barracuda and his puzzling attitude, I'd like to respectfully ask that the conversation be moved to the thread:

R.I.- How Can We Get Along Here? http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=25586&highlight=

[lightningBugout]

I'll 2nd that.

[Free]

Cordelia wrote:

But, thinking more about it, and remembering the histories of the organizations/people I worked for, I doubt that it was only after the Church Committee supposedly shut down the government practices, that they moved them into the private arena. They were probably already intermingled, and I remember reading a convincing timeline-- I can’t remember where--but one that traces the history of human experimentation far back, before WWII (of course, it’s probably always existed).

Re:Was MK Ultra moved to the private sector after the Church Committee hearings?

I have serious doubts about this based on my experience which was consistently military/government-connected and mostly after 1977.

I think we all tend to see things through the lens of our own experience and maybe since you were working in the MK related private sector it looked that way to you, but it sure didn't look that way to me.

A more realistic picture might be that after the very limited hangout and lack of any real accountability after the Church C. hearings, that there was an expansion of mind control projects both in the military/gov. AND in the private sector...

Anyway, I still have to read the article you linked (I printed it out but haven't had time)...I hope to get to that today...

[Cordelia]

Cordelia wrote:

But, thinking more about it, and remembering the histories of the organizations/people I worked for, I doubt that it was only after the Church Committee supposedly shut down the government practices, that they moved them into the private arena. They were probably already intermingled, and I remember reading a convincing timeline-- I can’t remember where--but one that traces the history of human experimentation far back, before WWII (of course, it’s probably always existed).

Re:Was MK Ultra moved to the private sector after the Church Committee hearings?

I have serious doubts about this based on my experience which was consistently military/government-connected and mostly after 1977.

I think we all tend to see things through the lens of our own experience and maybe since you were working in the MK related private sector it looked that way to you, but it sure didn't look that way to me.

A more realistic picture might be that after the very limited hangout and lack of any real accountability after the Church C. hearings, that there was an expansion of mind control projects both in the military/gov. AND in the private sector...

Anyway, I still have to read the article you linked (I printed it out but haven't had time)...I hope to get to that today...

Free--

I think your assessment is absolutely correct and yes, of course I was seeing this through the lens of my own experience. If you had military/government connected experience after 1977, then it was clearly still going on.

The article I linked mentions one of the perpetrators with whom I had personal experience, and whose future endeavors were possibly linked to people, and an encounter, I experienced at the organization I worked with. I think that’s why I latched onto its author’s (Husayn Al-Kurdi) comment about the move to the private sector.

(FWIW, I wasn’t including the military in my assumption; I figure they’ve always had, and always will have, carte blanche in their unspeakable manipulations of human beings.)

I stand corrected--thank you for pursuing this.

Cordelia

[barracuda]

But to satisfy your quick quips...."Could it be a faded rose from days gone by?" But Really??? you truly don't understand or grasp what MKUltra is all about, because many have pm'd and knew as soon as I came here what DD truly meant. You brought up Cathy O'Brian, now read what she helped write...then maybe you wouldn't have to ask such juvenile questions. Now the smart ass me wants to say, watch out this rose has thorns

Dawn, my question to you was designed to be a humorous one which I had considered asking ever since I first saw your handle. I am familiar with the alter categories, which I believe is sourced to Springmeier (correct me if I'm wrong about that) but since you're username is also associated with a famous question, I took the opportunity to pose it to you in the context of having quoted you and agreed with what you said entirely. If your sense of humor is not broad enough to encompass that, I'm truly sorry.

Maybe it's just attention-seeking on his part, i.e. a desire to deviate the thread into a discussion centered around or about barracuda instead of one about vital issues... but I agree DeltaDawn, after all his reading on the subject and after getting to know us for this long, how can he continue to insult and condescend in this way?

If by condescension and insult you mean addressing you as I would address anyone else on the board, than I am guilty as charged. Far from centering the discussion around me, I was actually speaking to issues directly posed by the OP, which I thought centered upon how the reality of mind control might wind up subverted through association with delusion. If you are concerned that my input here constitutes trolling, I advise you to contact the admin. I believe a user account was suspended just days ago for that very reason.

Per Willow's advice, I will attempt to refrain from posting on these threads anymore. No guarrantees, though. The ability to resist temptation has never been one of my strong points.

[American Dream]

barracuda wrote:

I am familiar with the alter categories, which I believe is sourced to Springmeier (correct me if I'm wrong about that)

I am also interested in this question. I have heard it said that Bennett Braun first publicized the programming categories like Beta, Delta, Theta, but the earliest reference I recall is from Gunther Russbacher.

I do not want to lead this thread off-topic, but can anyone briefly tell us how these terms reached the general public?

[Maddy]

Along that line: I also believe I recall hearing somewhere (where I can't recall!) that the title of "Monarch" was actually created (brought to light?) by Cathy O'Brian? That it wasn't used before then, and is possibly a red herring to actual research? I could be mistaken, but I do believe I read that somewhere... and that the title is just part of the smoke-and-mirrors act.

[lightningBugout]

I would guess that the first significant dissemination of the possibility that the brain wave states could be mapped to personalities was Corydon Hammond in the Greenbaum Speech.

Maddy, I've increasingly gotten that sense too. Particularly since realizing that Anton Chaitkin was responsible for obtaining the purportedly damning quote about "Monarch" from William Colby.

[LilyPatToo]

I'm very interested in learning more about the MC timeline post-Church Committee hearings (mid-70's). It makes sense to me that the result of the Senate hearing would have been to force the intelligence agencies' programs deeper to escape congressional oversight. Whether they went to private foundations or became part of corporate research & development--or both--is unclear to me. I'd like to be able to understand the funding and profit aspects better.

And whether they also were continued within the agencies, but somehow without official Executive Branch oversight is possible too. There have probably always been scads of malignant narcissists and sociopaths at the top in our government who would enable such experimentation if they could. Many of the most fascistic Right-wing hawks would OK any program that promised them a "super soldier."

The possibility that the programs also continued within highly classified military operations centers seems like a realistic assumption too. The compartmentalization within a rigid authoritarian structure found there would seem to me to serve very nicely to protect the programs from outside eyes. I don't know how accurate Kaye Griggs' accusations of extreme coercion/control methods used on her officer husband are, but when I first watched her videos, it all sounded very logical to me within a mind control context.

My own memories of being in the presence of a lot of military people during periods of missing time only began about 25 years ago when we moved here to the San Francisco Bay Area. Prior to that, I seemed to be surrounded by intel-connected people, wealthy businessmen and, for 6-7 years) mobsters. (I'd love to know whether those businessmen were just enjoying "insider" perks or whether their corporations were backing actual programs?) And the fact that my MILABs ended abruptly with the closing of the local military bases also supports the idea that highly-classified programs are (or were) run on bases, as so many other survivors have reported.

Some human guinea pigs are apparently moved from program to program over their lifetimes and may find out that they've been used in intelligence agency, corporate and military run programs. I had a handler who was a scientist at a national laboratory all through the MILABs years (mid-80's to early 90's), too, which implies close cooperation between government and military mind control efforts in at least one case.

LilyPat

[DeltaDawn]

Barracuda, I'm sorry for not seeing it was only humor. I tend to be a little sensitive these days.

To answer both questions I have studied Fritz Springmeiers work and Russbacher's story also but I first questioned it when in the military. All my records had Delta Force on them BUT I was only a volunteer soldier AND when I got out my VA records only showed my home base??? There was no doubt I'd been overseas so I started studying what the Delta Force was. This is when I found Fritz's work and things I'd wondered about my whole life started making sense. If one in fact believes in MKUltra it's almost undeniable that there is something that involves Beta, Theta, Delta and Alpha, there's one more isn't there? Another interesting fact I haven't quite gotten a grasp on yet, is that these terms are also used in some rituals. Maybe I'll be able to update that soon, but usually this research puts me into a panic mode, therefore I just give it up for long periods of time.