The Libya thread

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:40 am


http://counterpunch.org/bricmont03082011.html

International Women's Day Edition
March 8, 2011

The Old Gang's All Here
Libya and the Return of Humanitarian Imperialism

By JEAN BRICMONT

The whole gang is back: The parties of the European Left (grouping the "moderate" European communist parties), the “Green” José Bové, now allied with Daniel Cohn-Bendit, who has never seen a US-NATO war he didn’t like, various Trotkyist groups and of course Bernard-Henry Lévy and Bernard Kouchner, all calling for some sort of "humanitarian intervention" in Libya or accusing the Latin American left, whose positions are far more sensible, of acting as “useful idiots” for the "Libyan tyrant."

Twelve years later, it is Kosovo all over again. Hundred of thousands of Iraqis dead, NATO stranded in an impossible position in Afghanistan, and they have learned nothing! The Kosovo war was made to stop a nonexistent genocide, the Afghan war to protect women (go and check their situation now), and the Iraq war to protect the Kurds. When will they understand that all wars claim to have humanitarian justifications? Even Hitler was “protecting minorities” in Czechoslovakia and Poland.

On the other hand, Robert Gates warns that any future secretary of state who advises a US president to send troops into Asia or Africa "must have his head examined". Admiral Mullen similarly advises caution. The great paradox of our time is that the headquarters of the peace movement are to be found in the Pentagon and the State Department, while the pro-war party is a coalition of neo-conservatives and liberal interventionists of various stripes, including leftist humanitarian warriors, as well as some Greens, feminists or repentant communists.

So, now, everybody has to cut down his or her consumption because of global warming, but NATO wars are recyclable and imperialism has become part of sustainable development.

Of course the US will go or not go to war for reasons that are quite independent of the advice offered by the pro-war left. Oil is not likely to be a major factor in their decision, because any future Libyan government will have to sell oil and Libya is not big enough to significantly weigh on the price of oil. Of course, turmoil in Libya leads to speculation that itself affects prices, but that is a different matter. Zionists are probably of two minds about Libya: they hate Qaddafi, and would like to see him ousted, like Saddam, in the most humiliating manner, but they are not sure they will like his opposition (and, from the little we know about it, they won’t).

The main pro-war argument is that if things go quickly and easily, it will rehabilitate NATO and humanitarian intervention, whose image has been tarnished by Iraq and Afghanistan. A new Grenada or, at most, a new Kosovo, is exactly what is needed. Another motivation for intervention is to better control the rebels, by coming to “save” them on their march to victory. But that is unlikely to work: Karzai in Afghanistan, the Kosovar nationalists, the Shiites in Iraq and of course Israel, are perfectly happy to get American help, when needed, but after that, to pretty much pursue their own agenda. And a full-fledged military occupation of Libya after its “liberation” is unlikely to be sustainable, which of course makes intervention less attractive from a US point of view.

On the other hand, if things turn badly, it will probably be the beginning of the end of the American empire, hence the caution of people who are actually in charge of it and not merely writing articles in Le Monde or ranting against dictators in front of cameras.

It is difficult for ordinary citizens to know exactly what is going on in Libya, because Western media have thoroughly discredited themselves in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Palestine, and alternative sources are not always reliable either. That of course does not prevent the pro-war left from being absolutely convinced of the truth of the worst reports about Qaddafi, just as they were twelve years ago about Milosevic.

The negative role of the International Criminal Court is again apparent, here, as was that of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia in the case of Kosovo. One of the reasons why there was relatively little bloodshed in Tunisia and Egypt is that there was a possible exit for Ben Ali and Mubarak. But “international justice” wants to make sure that no such exit is possible for Qaddafi, and probably for people close to him, hence inciting them to fight to the bitter end.

If “another world is possible”, as the European Left keeps on saying, then another West should be possible and the European Left should start working on that. The recent meeting of the Bolivarian Alliance could serve as an example: the Latin American left wants peace and they want to avoid US intervention, because they know that they are in the sights of the US and that their process of social transformation requires above all peace and national sovereignty. Hence, they suggest sending an international delegation, possibly led by Jimmy Carter (hardly a stooge of Qaddafi), in order to start a negotiation process between the government and the rebels. Spain has expressed interest in the idea, which is of course rejected by Sarkozy. This proposition may sound utopian, but it might not be so if it were supported by the full weight of the United Nations. That would be the way to fulfill its mission, but it is now made impossible by US and Western influence. However, it is not impossible that now, or in some future crisis, a non-interventionist coalition of nations, including Russia, China, Latin America and maybe others, may work together to build credible alternatives to Western interventionism.

Unlike the Latin American left, the pathetic European version has lost all sense of what it means to do politics. It does not try to propose concrete solutions to problems, and is only able to take moral stances, in particular denouncing dictators and human rights violations in grandiloquent tones. The social democratic left follows the right with at best a few years delay and has no ideas of its own. The “radical” left often manages both to denounce Western governments in every possible way and to demand that those same governments intervene militarily around the globe to defend democracy. Their lack of political reflection makes them highly vulnerable to disinformation campaigns and to becoming passive cheerleaders of US-NATO wars.

That left has no coherent program and would not know what to do even if a god put them into power. Instead of “supporting” Chavez and the Venezuelan Revolution, a meaningless claim some love to repeat, they should humbly learn from them and, first of all, relearn what it means to do politics.


Jean Bricmont teaches physics in Belgium and is a member of the Brussels Tribunal. His book, Humanitarian Imperialism, is published by Monthly Review Press. He can be reached at Jean.Bricmont@uclouvain.be.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby StarmanSkye » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:44 am

The west's hysterical hypocricy could scarcely be more blatant, as Washington & their prostitute press hurl such standard psyop invectives as 'strongman' to Venezuela's Chavez and Libya's Col Gadhafi (as had been done with Yugoslavia's Milosevic) -- yet those far-more despotic thugs serving the ends of neoliberal feudalism as loyal puppets to the empire are NEVER similiarly smeared. No doubt not to confuse the fickle public about why OUR badguys are better than the independants.

The articles by Stephen Lendman, Keith Snow, Justin Raimondo and the Socialist Workers article posted by eyeno sure add great critical depth to the analysis of what the true forces & interests are that are driving the events in the ME. I cannot help but note the incredible duplicity of Washingtom and the UK in vilifying Ghadafi for marshalling his military and attempting to repel what appears to be armed insurrection. Yet the west's so-called 'ally' Saudi Arabia brutally represses ALL protest demonstrations (to add to the west's OWN history of brutal police-actions against mostly peaceful anti-war, anti-G8 and civil-rights demonstrators). And besides, what the HeLL would the US and UK do if the situation were reversed & citizens were shooting at police & military troops?

I remember the exact same type of demonization by the imperialist west against Yugoslavia's President Milosevic, with the western press mindlessly parroting Pentagon and State Dept. claims about terrific ongoing genocide and mass-graves -- yet long after Yugoslavia was partitioned and Milosevic indicted in the International Criminal Court the damning evidence of horrific crimes against humanity was found to consist of little more than dated press reports. It turnsd out that the west opportunistically reported Kosovar refugees fleeing Nato's own high-altitude bombing raids as 'proof' they were being chased by Serbian troops. When exhumed, the few actual 'mass graves' mostly revealed the expected types and moderate numbers of civilians and paramilitary victims of urban warfare -- NOT the tens of thousands of corpses the west originally claimed. It also turns out the Albanian and Kosovar 'allies' were not above ambushing their own ethnic members (as 'proof' of Serbian crimes) -- even dressing Serbians they killed in Albanian and Kosovar clothing. It also turns out that Kosovar and Albanian leaders were far more brutal than Serbs -- and most haven't even had to hide from any kind of justice. As well, the case against Milosevic was so weak that the Court had to engage in exceptional measures to try and salvage their prosecution -- but in the end it was withheld medical care possibly augmented by poison that did Milosevic in -- above all, the west couldn't risk Milosevic repudiating the duplicity and guile behind the west's calculated effort to dismantle Yugoslavia and forever erase the embarrassing example of its dynamic, progressive and popular socialist economy in the midst of europe's floundering neoliberal malaise.

So I'm EXTREMELY reluctant to take anything the west claims about Ghadafi without at least tons of skeptical reserve.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby gnosticheresy_2 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:08 am

gnosticheresy_2 wrote:This could also go in the Wall St thread or the Egypt thread, good 20+ min Chomsky interview by Newsnight's Jeremy Paxman unedited covering Libya, Egypt, the ME generally, AfPak and the west's response plus the financial crisis and climate change - all in all a good overview of the many interconnected issues:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 418922.stm

hoping someone will youtube it so non-uk types can watch (or you could proxy it, not sure how..?)


Found it:



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Re: The Libya thread

Postby justdrew » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:25 pm

it disgusts me that this lying two-faced disingenuous, frankly... evil country, that sits and talks about defending freedom, let's the Libyans rebels fight alone. It's disgusting, our military should have been tasked with eliminating the Libyan military weeks ago.

Obama is so fucking pathetic.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:54 pm

justdrew wrote:it disgusts me that this lying two-faced disingenuous, frankly... evil country, that sits and talks about defending freedom, let's the Libyans rebels fight alone. It's disgusting, our military should have been tasked with eliminating the Libyan military weeks ago.



you been watching cnn??
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby justdrew » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:20 pm

Nordic wrote:
justdrew wrote:it disgusts me that this lying two-faced disingenuous, frankly... evil country, that sits and talks about defending freedom, let's the Libyans rebels fight alone. It's disgusting, our military should have been tasked with eliminating the Libyan military weeks ago.



you been watching cnn??


what's cnn? but seriously, no. why, are there people on it saying something similar? I bet they leave out the first two sentences.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:20 pm

justdrew wrote:
Nordic wrote:
justdrew wrote:it disgusts me that this lying two-faced disingenuous, frankly... evil country, that sits and talks about defending freedom, let's the Libyans rebels fight alone. It's disgusting, our military should have been tasked with eliminating the Libyan military weeks ago.



you been watching cnn??


what's cnn? but seriously, no. why, are there people on it saying something similar? I bet they leave out the first two sentences.


yeah they've been beating that drum since day one. i said somewhere days ago that i'm surprised wolf blitzer hasn't been ranting about babies pulled from incubators.

they're really ramping up the "omg we have to do something!!" thing.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby justdrew » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:22 pm

Nordic wrote:
justdrew wrote:
Nordic wrote:
justdrew wrote:it disgusts me that this lying two-faced disingenuous, frankly... evil country, that sits and talks about defending freedom, let's the Libyans rebels fight alone. It's disgusting, our military should have been tasked with eliminating the Libyan military weeks ago.



you been watching cnn??


what's cnn? but seriously, no. why, are there people on it saying something similar? I bet they leave out the first two sentences.


yeah they've been beating that drum since day one. i said somewhere days ago that i'm surprised wolf blitzer hasn't been ranting about babies pulled from incubators.

they're really ramping up the "omg we have to do something!!" thing.



well, apparently the US wants to wait until all the rebels and their family have been murdered. then they'll march in and pretend to be heroes. pathetic, transparent and disgusting.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:17 pm

.

What we see from Libya is bound to confuse us. Let's not forget the prevailing reality until a few days ago.

Picked up most of the following at http://akirathedon.com/blobblog/berlusc ... t-want-to-“disturb”-gaddafi.

These are all individual meetings, not run-ins at bigger convos like the UN or G20.

Image

Image
Of all recent Statesmen of the West, this one still physically repulses me the most. It's weird, because the exterior is conventionally good-looking.

Image

Of course... but they were neighbors.
Image

Who is this one?
Image

Honesty compels me to add:

Image
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:26 pm

hey as long as we're so generously giving away "no fly zones" why not have one for palestine and especially gaza?

(sadly this is not original, i saw it somewhere else but can't remember who said it)
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:01 am

justdrew wrote:
Nordic wrote:
justdrew wrote:
Nordic wrote:
justdrew wrote:it disgusts me that this lying two-faced disingenuous, frankly... evil country, that sits and talks about defending freedom, let's the Libyans rebels fight alone. It's disgusting, our military should have been tasked with eliminating the Libyan military weeks ago.



you been watching cnn??


what's cnn? but seriously, no. why, are there people on it saying something similar? I bet they leave out the first two sentences.


yeah they've been beating that drum since day one. i said somewhere days ago that i'm surprised wolf blitzer hasn't been ranting about babies pulled from incubators.

they're really ramping up the "omg we have to do something!!" thing.



well, apparently the US wants to wait until all the rebels and their family have been murdered. then they'll march in and pretend to be heroes. pathetic, transparent and disgusting.


Of course. 1991 Iraq anyone? Bush Sr and the CIA tells the shiites to rise up! Rise up Kurds! Rise up oppressed Iraqis. And then sat back and laughed as they all got slaughtered. Same thing with Bay of Pigs.

The US always pulls that shit. Stirs up rebels and gets people's hopes up, then falls back and lets them get sacrificed. All so the US can see "see! What a tyrant, well guess we have to take charge"

The whole Serbian/Bosnian/Balkan conflict 1992-2002 was such a setup, with US financed al Qaeda linked fighters committing massacres on one side, with globalist backed Slobo on the other.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Nordic » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:37 pm

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/03/10/us-i ... ervention/
US Intel Director Predicts Gadhafi Victory Without Military Intervention
White House Defends Assessment
by Jason Ditz, March 10, 2011
Email This | Print This | Share This | Antiwar Forum

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has once again sparked Congressional outrage today when, during testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee, he predicted that the Gadhafi regime would ultimately reconquer Libya in the absence of (a presumably US-led) military invasion.

Senators were quick to condemn the prediction, saying it damaged efforts to oust Gadhafi. It seemed his prediction was aimed mostly at giving the US an excuse to “save” the rebels, despite repeated comments from the rebels opposing a foreign occupation.

The White House was quick to defend Clapper’s prediction, saying it was purely on the basis of the actual military force of both sides, and did not take into account the foreign intervention. NSA Thomas Donilon, added that once the intervention was taken into account, Gadhafi would surely lose.


I think this is the set up. I wouldn't put it past the U.S. to be clandestinely helping Qadaffi right now, so that he can give the appearance of retaining power and being a big bad meanie, so the U.S. will have an excuse to go in and grab that oil (oops I meant freedom and democracy).
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby lupercal » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:34 am

CIA & MI-6 scheme to topple Ghaddafi -- Libyan ambassador to Ghana
Citi FM Online (Ghana), 12 March 2011

The Libyan government says it has uncovered evidence that agents of the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the British Military Intelligence 6 (MI-6) have been colluding to topple the Ghaddafi regime.

Libyan Ambassador to Ghana, Dr. Ali Gadban made this disclosure at a press conference in Accra on the 11th March, 2011. He said recorded phone conversations between Libyan rebels and operatives of the CIA and the MI-6 had been intercepted by the Libyan government.

He further alleged that Western and Arab media organizations, notably CNN, BBC, Al-jazeera and Reuters were all participants in a grand scheme championed by Western nations to deceive the world and create disaffection for the Ghaddafi regime. Dr. Ali Gadban said “they are all traitors and they are feeding you with lies. I’m not speaking because I like to speak, I have concrete evidence, we have recorded messages between agents of the CIA and agents of the MI-6. I have been reading the papers here in Accra and it is unfortunate because most of them quote BBC, CNN, Reuters."

He further asked, “Where is the voice of Africa, we have to raise our own voice. For those who quote these organizations, ask yourself if these people have an agenda, definitely they do."

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http://www.citifmonline.com/index.php?id=1.323013
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:51 am

Al Jazeera staffer killed in Libya

Cameraman Ali Hassan Al Jaber was returning to eastern city of Benghazi from filing report when he was shot and killed.
Last Modified: 12 Mar 2011 21:03 GMT

'Here and now, Libyan and Qatari blood is mixed for the sake of freedom. Our condolences go to the Qatari people and the Al Jazeera channel' read a banner held in Benghazi

An Al Jazeera cameraman has been killed in what appears to have been an ambush near the rebel-held city of Benghazi in eastern Libya.

Ali Hassan Al Jaber was returning to Benghazi from a nearby town after filing a report from an opposition protest when unknown fighters opened fire on a car he and his colleagues were travelling in.

Two people including Al Jaber were shot. Al Jaber was rushed to hospital, but did not survive.

Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley, reporting from Benghazi, said Al Jaber was hit by three shots and was wounded through the heart.

"This is an extension of the campaign against Al Jazeera, and Al Jazeera Arabic particularly - because everyone here watch Al Jazeera Arabic. Their work has been heroic, and it has been a great shock to lose a colleague."

'Cowardly crime'
Wadah Khanfar, the director-general of Al Jazeera, said the network "will not remain silent" and will pursue those behind the ambush through legal channels.

He said that the killing came after "an unprecedented campaign" against the network by Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

"Al Jazeera condemns the cowardly crime, which comes as part of the Libyan regime's malicious campaign targeting Al Jazeera and its staff," the network said in a statement.

"Al Jazeera reiterates the assault cannot dent its resolve to continue its mission, professionally enlightening the public of the unfolding events in Libya and elsewhere.

"Al Jazeera stresses it will relentlessly prosecute and bring to justice all perpetrators and their accomplices."

Al Jaber, a Qatari national, was born in 1955 and received his bachelor and master's degrees in cinematography from the Academy of Arts in Cairo. He was the director of CNBC Arabiya TV bureau in Qatar.

He also served as a supervisor in the National Olympic Committee between 2002 and 2005 and held the office of Head of Filming Section in Qatar Television for more than 20 years.

During his tenure, he produced a number of documentaries including one on Qatar and another on Kuwait entitled "Plight and Tribulation".

His death marks the first report of a journalist killed in the current conflict in Libya.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 23376.html


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Re: The Libya thread

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:32 pm

♻ Urgent Appeal for Libyan Aid Organisation

Libyan Aid Organisation LibAid is in urgent need of food, medical supplies, ambulances, insulin, water filters, communication equipment, fuel and more.

Image

Please contact:

Hai Ali aben Abe Taleb Benghazi
Telephone: 00218612230014
TeleFax: 00218612239256
Website English/French/Arabic: http://www.libaid.net

Contactform: http://www.libaid.net/eng/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=60


source: http://arabrevolt.wordpress.com/2011/03 ... anisation/


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