What constitutes Misogyny?

[charlie meadows]

barracuda,

A lot of stuff there. More than I'm equipped to deal with.

One thing: One of us does not understand the concept of neoteny. Which of us, I don't know. I was under the impression that it was a relationship between species, not within the species itself. The implications of neoteny as far as humans are concerned--not at all an exact science--as I understand it--include extrapolating the differences between primate to human into the posthuman. The extrapolations look very much like some of the more popular representations of humanoid aliens so popular in abduction myths. You could call it an unconscious archetypal awareness. Pertinent to our discussion in my opinion includes larger cranial capacity and narrower hips for efficient bipedal locomotion (research being of course subject to scrutiny). Now if most of that is true, with subsequent relatively premature birth, longer infancy, childhood and adolescence, what implications are there possible to ideal masculine and feminine traits?

[charlie meadows]

you might have spared the majority and addressed me in private or better yet in the magick mirror thread. But whatever...

Honestly, I prefer not to participate in situations in which "magick" is being attempted. Not so much as I fear the consequences of the ersatz spell-caster's success as that I just don't want to encourage that sort of thing here.

Thanks for the invitation, though.

It was not an invitation.

[Plutonia]

Bringing this down from upthread, for those that missed it:

And one more thing:

I have a theory that is coming to me ...

It seems that men badly want a space in which to speak about the cultural pressures on them

They have them already. Interested and/or qualified women can even participate in them, too, if they want to.

true, true.

But I was thinking more along the 'what it means to be a man' theme. I can see that they really really really really want to go off about it. They keep doing it here, and in response to it I have gotten angry and you have and others have and I'm not saying we didn't have every right to, since FFS we're simply trying to talk about what we'd like to talk about!

Since masculinity/femininity are cultural concepts that hinge on one another I would welcome the exploration of both here.

Men, let me ask you something:

Are you aware that a space in which to speak about the cultural pressures on you is in the things-you-badly-want-and-can-easily-have-if-you-wish-no-one-will-punish-you-for-it-it's-perfectly-okay-and-natural category, not the other one?

Because it is. Some things are. Lots of things, really. You might have a few others misfiled, too, come to think of it.

^^ That's just a shot in the dark on my part, wrt what in the male psyche prevents men from speaking of stuff like that even when they badly want to. And it may well be (IOW, probably is) totally wrong. However, it's kindly meant, fwiw.

What she said (c2w?) ----> "I really do agree that it seems that men badly want a space in which to speak about the cultural pressures on them. And I also have really always thought it was a crying shame that they don't have any (or very, very few) dedicated to that purpose. But I don't understand why they don't. I find it baffling."

We are baffled. You are silent. How's that for stereotypical roles?

I'm going to bring this down from up thread, because I'm wondering how widespread the feelings Kevin Powell are and if/how the menfolk feel it's effected them and their relationships with women or other men:

Not surprisingly the "savior" I wanted in my life was my father. ….. The one remotely tangible image of maleness in my life was gone for good. Both my mother and I were devastated, .... I longed for my father's affections. .... Silently I began to blame my mother for my father's disappearance.

Do you fellas relate to what he says there at all?

[barracuda]

barracuda,

I lot of stuff there. More than I'm equipped to deal with.

One thing: One of us does not understand the concept of neoteny. Which of us, I don't know.

My understanding is that neoteny is simply the prolongation and retention of traits associated with embryonic development or infancy further into the lifespan of the animal, usually into adulthood.

I was under the impression that it was a relationship between species, not within the species itself.

I'm usure what you mean here. Neoteny is a species characteristic which emerges from traits previously associated with juveniles of that species within the species development. For example, the pedomorphia of prolonged infancy seems to have increased in Homo across the span of the species deveopment.

The implications of neoteny as far as humans are concerned--not at all an exact science--as I understand it--include extrapolating the differences between primate to human into the posthuman. The extrapolations look very much like some of the more popular representations of humanoid aliens so popular in abduction myths. You could call it an unconscious archetypal awareness. Pertinent to our discussion in my opinion includes larger cranial capacity and narrower hips for efficient bipedal locomotion (research being of course subject to scrutiny). Now if most of that is true, with subsequent relatively premature birth, longer infancy, childhood and adolescence, what implications are there possible to ideal masculine and feminine traits?

From wiki:

Women are more pedomorphic in their physical traits than men, since women have been under sexual selection to have pedomorphic traits. [15] Women with more pedomorphic traits have attracted "quality mates" with "protective and nurturing impulses" who are more likely to help raise their offspring, raising reproductive success, so pedomorphy has become a "runaway" sexual selection in humans with each successive generations of females having to have their traits be more pedomorphic to compete.[15] Therefore, not only has there been sexual selection for pedomorphic women, but there also has been sexual selection for men who prefer pedomorphic women, causing juvenilization in women to be widely considered desirable by men.[15]

Even though women mature earlier than men, their physical traits mature less. In women, the maturation of vellus hair into terminal hair, the growth of the bony eye ridges and the deepening of the voice do not occur like they do in most other adult primates.[15]

[charlie meadows]

I was under the impression that it was a relationship between species, not within the species itself.

I'm usure what you mean here. Neoteny is a species characteristic which emerges from traits previously associated with juveniles of that species within the species development. For example, the pedomorphia of prolonged infancy seems to have increased in Homo across the span of the species deveopment.

You see, there it is. I was under the impression that neoteny was the relationship in traits between the child of the less-evolved species with the adult of the more evolved, in this case, a juvenile primate with an adult human. So, an adult human has finer hair than an adult ape, as does the juvenile ape. And so on.

See. I've learned. You have taught me. But what does it all mean? I live in a constant state of wonder.

[barracuda]

Bringing this down from upthread, for those that missed it:

...

Do you fellas relate to what he says there at all?

I never lacked for masculine models in life, any more than I lacked for spaces in which I could safely discuss issues of cultural pressures upon men. It has been my experience that virtually any environment in which men are present in any number quickly becomes a de facto man's environment. That includes, but not to exclusion, sporting events and training, the office of the editor-in-chief, weekend barbeques, biker gangs, the nominal working environment (which is usually run by men, and always winds up focusing energies in a male-centered cultural disposition), the hunting trip, the beer run, the drug cartel, the U.S. Congressional chambers, assorted pick-up rock bands, barbershops, etc. Everywhere you go, the subject matter of casual and not-so-casual conversation generally shakes down to the various aspects of the pressures that men face in daily life, including especially the pressures put upon us poor fellows by women and their inscrutable ways. It's ubiquitous item of topical currency, which is one reason I like this thread so much.

I may be a bad person to ask, though, because I'm a rather manly man who, as I've stated, comes from a long line of men not afraid to be openly manly.

[compared2what?]

Oh, sorry, I guess i meant breath-work. Not so up on all those alt. therapies.

Which reminds me, I never meant to advocate that anyone actually do his therapy whatsit- lord no! I just said some of his ideas and worth looking at- even if he is an evil reptile serving his troll-lords interests now or then - worth looking at particularly if he's an evil reptile serving his troll-lords interests even and yes, he does look to be that. But we are adults. Anyone who is interested can go and have a look without harming themselves, I'm pretty sure of that.

And Esalen had open arms for the Scilons in their heyday. Maybe still, I don't know. And Scilons do tend to poison the well at the same time as being useful to the troll-lords:

"...Most poignantly, what are we to do with the rather astonishing fact that there is very solid empirical evidence to suggest that the superpowers are common features of real-life human experience, that is, that they may be, well, real?..."
http://www.esalenctr.org/display/supernormal.cfm

So as I said, approach with caution.

Sorry, can't pretend to take you seriously on this thread anymore. But did you know that you were the very first person to PM me here at RI back when you had a different username? Because you were. And you'll always have a very special place in my heart because of it.

[Canadian_watcher]

I think it's all clear to me now.

I just did a search of the word "tarbaby" and I found a thread I had forgotten about - it's an oldie and back then I had no idea wtf was going on.

C2w's last post in this thread put the puzzle together.

[Plutonia]

Oh, sorry, I guess i meant breath-work. Not so up on all those alt. therapies.

Which reminds me, I never meant to advocate that anyone actually do his therapy whatsit- lord no! I just said some of his ideas and worth looking at- even if he is an evil reptile serving his troll-lords interests now or then - worth looking at particularly if he's an evil reptile serving his troll-lords interests even and yes, he does look to be that. But we are adults. Anyone who is interested can go and have a look without harming themselves, I'm pretty sure of that.

And Esalen had open arms for the Scilons in their heyday. Maybe still, I don't know. And Scilons do tend to poison the well at the same time as being useful to the troll-lords:

"...Most poignantly, what are we to do with the rather astonishing fact that there is very solid empirical evidence to suggest that the superpowers are common features of real-life human experience, that is, that they may be, well, real?..."
http://www.esalenctr.org/display/supernormal.cfm

So as I said, approach with caution.

Sorry, can't pretend to take you seriously on this thread anymore. But did you know that you were the very first person to PM me here at RI back when you had a different username? Because you were. And you'll always have a very special place in my heart because of it.

Well, I'm sorry you don't like my response. I was feeling light-hearted today. Or is it giddy from obsessing over this thread. I'm not sure.

About the other thing, I did because Annie encouraged me to, but I probably did it awkwardly. Anyway, that was out of character because I don't generally PM with people. And Jeff knows about my previous nick- I lost that one with an old hushmail account. So, it may seem ominous that I have a new nick, but it isn't.

[Plutonia]

I think it's all clear to me now.

I just did a search of the word "tarbaby" and I found a thread I had forgotten about - it's an oldie and back then I had no idea wtf was going on.

C2w's last post in this thread put the puzzle together.

Do you mean this:

"The tarbaby principle, you are attached to what you attack. This thread comes up, everybody jumps on, and suddenly we're all part of a big sticky ball of tar."

[charlie meadows]

I was under the impression that it was a relationship between species, not within the species itself.

I'm usure what you mean here. Neoteny is a species characteristic which emerges from traits previously associated with juveniles of that species within the species development. For example, the pedomorphia of prolonged infancy seems to have increased in Homo across the span of the species deveopment.

You see, there it is. I was under the impression that neoteny was the relationship in traits between the child of the less-evolved species with the adult of the more evolved, in this case, a juvenile primate with an adult human. So, an adult human has finer hair than an adult ape, as does the juvenile ape. And so on.

See. I've learned. You have taught me. But what does it all mean? I live in a constant state of wonder.

For what it's worth, this is more what I was referring to, from the ubiquitous and questionable wiki entry on neoteny...

Stephen Jay Gould believed that the "evolutionary story" of humans is one where we have been "retaining to adulthood the originally juvenile features of our ancestors". Though it is possible that Gould appeared at or was affiliated in some way with Esalen.

Neotenous traits in humans
flat face [2]
broader, less forward-projecting skull[7]
large brain [2]
less body hair[2]
small nose[8]
hairless face[8]
reduction of brow ridge[2]
small teeth[2]
small upper jaw (maxilla) [2]
small lower jaw (mandible)[2]
epicanthic eye fold [7] (present in all people in the embryonic stage)[9]
thinness of skull bones[7]
large body size relative to limbs[7]
longer leg than arm length[10]
upright stance[9]
feet not being like hands[9]
light skin[11]

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscienc ... ins_fr.php

These delays are signs of an evolutionary process called "neoteny", where a species' growth slows down to the point where adults retain many of the features previously seen in juveniles. You can see neoteny at work in some domestic dog breeds, which are remarkably similar to baby wolves, or the axolotl salamander, which keeps the gills of a larva even as it becomes a sexually mature adult. And some scientists, like the late Stephen Jay Gould, have suggested that neoteny has played a major role in human evolution too.

As adults, we share many of the physical features of immature chimps. Our bone structures, including flat faces and small jaws, are similar to those of juvenile chimps, as is our patchy distribution of hair. A slower rate of development may even have shaped our vaunted intelligence, by stretching out the time when we are most receptive to new skills and knowledge. Somel's research supports this idea by showing that since our evolutionary split from chimpanzees, the activation of some important brain genes has been delayed to the very start of adolescence.

[barracuda]

charlie, is there some way you might synthesize your thoughts regarding neoteny and birth canal bottlenecks into some sort of a hypothetical, "what-if" relationship with misogyny? Because I'll admit that at the moment, I'm free fallin', especially now that chimps have entered the picture.

[charlie meadows]

charlie, is there some way you might synthesize your thoughts regarding neoteny and birth canal bottlenecks into some sort of a hypothetical, "what-if" relationship with misogyny? Because I'll admit that at the moment, I'm free fallin', especially now that chimps have entered the picture.

Free-falling is good.

I might be willing to synthesize my thoughts regarding birth canal bottlenecks, subsequent childcare and family implications, as related to ideal masculine/feminine characteristics. The connection to misogyny would be much more speculative, though potentially very rewarding. I need to do more rigorous research. I'm definitely content to let the subject drop for now, as indeed I would have been content to drop it when I first queried about sources.

[compared2what?]

You might crosspost this [Edit: c2w?s last post] in the "magick mirror" thread, as the content doesn't have much to do with this one.

"Harbingers of 9/11 in the work of the Coen brothers?" Now you have piqued my interest.

Re: Grof? You'll have to take that up with Plutonia. I had not heard of him before he/she mentioned him.

Telling credulous westerners that they can just skip right over the years of dedicated hard work and rigorous self-discipline required by eastern esoteric practices and go straight to a highly evolved state of spiritual consciousness that transcends time, simply by using hallucinogens

You're condemning maybe 50% of the members of the board, including most of your friends.

I wasn't condemning anybody. I was condemning practices that are destructive to some for destroying them.

But not me. It is, in fact, one of the biggest problems I have with this board: The top-to-bottom advocacy of artificial enlightenment. Interestingly, I have not heard you speak out about it until now.

How long have you been listening? And what business is it of yours what I do and don't say about general matters in which you're not implicated, as long as I say it in good faith and with honorable intent?

In short, what the fuck have I ever done to you or anybody else that even came close to being as pointlessly, personally proudly and persistently malicious as you've gone out of your way to be in very nearly every post you've addressed to me and virtually every other poster on this infinite fucking thread to no clearly stated or readily apparent end apart from malice for its own sake, oh, non-reticent one?

Please do tell me.

Because as far as I understand it, your position is that it's only just that I be closely monitored at all times and regularly harshly pilloried in what you believe to be the most personally humiliating and hurtful means at your disposal whenever possible for:

(a) Writing long sentences that others are free not to read;

(b) Objecting to things that I find objectionable, almost always for stated and considered reasons that others are free to evaluate on their real merits or the lack thereof; and

(c) Every now and again, objecting to things just because I don't like them and without offering any reason, which others are not only free to ignore but would be well-advised to regard as little more than a statement of personal opinion, much like nine out of ten posts to this and every other fucking discussion board on the internet.

None of those constitutes an offense that's commensurate with the penalties you attempt to impose on me for them by any logical (or even rational) standard. Care to offer an explanation?

Anyone?

Do you have anything to add about the relative bottleneck at the birth canal and the possible ramifications etc? A minor point in the scheme of things (or maybe not?) but only Plutonia has addressed the issue itself. Thanks Plutonia. It seems to have instigated much trolling though.

Ha.

[compared2what?]

About the other thing, I did because Annie encouraged me to, but I probably did it awkwardly. Anyway, that was out of character because I don't generally PM with people. And Jeff knows about my previous nick- I lost that one with an old hushmail account. So, it may seem ominous that I have a new nick, but it isn't.

I know.

Or, rather, I felt confident that all of that was the case, having figured it out. It's not like I get bulletins about stuff like that. I very much hope you know that I wouldn't have dimed you out like that if I'd thought there was any chance that was what I was doing, though.

Because for one thing, I might not be able to pretend to take you seriously on this thread anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't still like and respect username Plutonia. Once I like and respect someone, they tend to stay liked and respected, generally speaking. Minimally rational creatures and so on and so forth. And for another, I wouldn't even do that to a username I felt no sympathy for that went any further than taking it as granted that he or she was a sensitive suffering being like all other people.

I'm a straight shooter about stuff like that. I just got an unconventional style. Clowns, in particular, tend to mistake it for something else.