Critical Thinking, reductionism, epistemology RI megathread

[justdrew]

I'm just shocked and kinda stunned, didn't see this coming
signing off for awhile, I need to take a break.

[vanlose kid]

Phil Plait (Bad Astronomy) - Don't Be A Dick



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needed repeating.

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[vanlose kid]

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Here's the M.O. i'm seeing:


Align your "New Age" spiritual feelings with a particular right wing Xtian cause. Find a suitable piece of propaganda from someone upholding a reactionary position in line with this.

When people complain or disagree, post more stuff and starting framing things in terms of "black vs. white". When folks continue to disagree try as hard as possible to align them with the "black" cause and tell them that' they're doing it wrong and that "your people" (on the black side) are marginalizing, censoring, repressing all us open-minded inquirers on the "white" side.

Repeat endlessly.






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pretty good description of your own method there. thanks. it's a keeper.

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[MacCruiskeen]

I have to confess I have next to no idea what the hell's going on in this thread. My excuse is pneumonia and a high fever.

Anyway, C_w, I also have to stress that I am very far from being a radical relativist. I think you're shooting yourself in the foot by posting these links (of all links) and defending some of the least defensible positions & people around (of all positions & people), and I really don't know why you're doing it. Because "anything goes"? Because somebody somewhere can be found to defend anything?

I honestly don't get it. But then I am currently so spaced out that I don't really understand anything at all right now. So ignore me everyone if I'm all wrong. I didn't, couldn't follow this thread properly, and it's a shame these potentially v. interesting threads keep going haywire.

[Canadian_watcher]

What links are we talking about? The one that exposes the expelled movie being exposed? The movie itself? Or both?

I would like to stress here that there is a serious ethnocentricity problem. Perhaps it is MY problem mainly. I"m coming at this from the perspective that people can hold faithful beliefs and still do science. I do not know the agendas of different warring factions in the States, but I can identify warring factions when I see them.

From the outside the establishment looks like it is expelling some lines of inquiry, and I object to that.

From the outside (where we ALL reside, unless one of you is one of the scientists or board members in question) we are reliant on information that is given to us and ALL of it has a bias. ALL of it. In addition to the bias it holds is the bias the reader holds.

One person takes the word of twenty-odd people from the NCSE, another person takes the word of the people who were fired/disciplined.

That's my point. NOT anything about the Christian Right Wing for the love of pete.

[Searcher08]

So where does that get us all?

R.I. is full of surprises and TBH I never thought that a thread about Critical Thinking Reductionism and epistemology would lead to an ID vs Evolution showdown.


Here is the thing I noticed - I see precisely what Vanlose pointed out.
I think ADs description of CW is actually what AD himself is doing.

Yet if there is one thing I came away with from the mysogyny thread, it is to pay attention to sincere feedback that other people are supplying.

This points us in the direction that there may be blind spots that are being perceived and pointed out by the Other which we cant see - and likewise for Us.

[Wombaticus Rex]

From the outside the establishment looks like it is expelling some lines of inquiry, and I object to that.

From the outside (where we ALL reside, unless one of you is one of the scientists or board members in question) we are reliant on information that is given to us and ALL of it has a bias. ALL of it. In addition to the bias it holds is the bias the reader holds.

One person takes the word of twenty-odd people from the NCSE, another person takes the word of the people who were fired/disciplined.

That's my point. NOT anything about the Christian Right Wing for the love of pete.

Then you're committing a category error, aren't you? The problems you see with the sociology of science do not amount to a critique of the content. They're also not problems that are limited to organized orthodoxy in science alone -- they are fundamentally human problems, and indeed, this whole thread is a microcosm of every single one of them.

[barracuda]

needed repeating.

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No, I don't really think it does, because the implication of that nice presentation in this context is that somehow one side of the argument is acting unfairly and terribly to the other, whereas by any fair assessment there has been semi-needless shit-talking by both sides here.

As well, I don't really have any problem with reacting with vehement disagreement bordering on being a dick when I see the Discovery Institute or Ben Stein or Intelligent Design being promoted here. I have no interest in posting on a Republican conservative Christian forum. Whatsoever. Those people are EXACTLY the ones I wish to see exposed and reviled. And I'm under no illusion that supporters of the Discovery Institute will EVER be swayed to a fair or impartial perspective. I don't expect to counter fascism with politeness.

[Canadian_watcher]

R.I. is full of surprises and TBH I never thought that a thread about Critical Thinking Reductionism and epistemology would lead to an ID vs Evolution showdown.

me neither and I sincerely apologize for it getting like this.

I am not trying to defend or reject either position on the origin of life. I have ZERO clue what the origin of life is, but *I* suspect, from what I've gathered in my short life, that there is a 'designer' (not a bearded fellow, no religion attached).

The way I've come to this belief is THROUGH science, not religion, although I did have a couple of experiences which made me really look at the possibility of evil incarnate. And then, if evil is incarnate, how is it that we can still love?

When I looked further into both the science and the mystery I found a possible liberation that, to me, is held back by very mundane things ... like the repression and hiding of knowledge (ancient and new), social conditioning, and personal fear.

If I sound like a nut case I really don't care. That's me at this stage of my journey. I'm interested to see what else will pop up along the way. I am not set in stone. I am mutable.

When I see people set in stone I wish better for them. That's all.

[Canadian_watcher]

needed repeating.

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No, I don't really think it does, because the implication of that nice presentation in this context is that somehow one side of the argument is acting unfairly and terribly to the other, whereas by any fair assessment there has been semi-needless shit-talking by both sides here.

As well, I don't really have any problem with reacting with vehement disagreement bordering on being a dick when I see the Discovery Institute or Ben Stein or Intelligent Design being promoted here. I have no interest in posting on a Republican conservative Christian forum. Whatsoever. Those people are EXACTLY the ones I wish to see exposed and reviled. And I'm under no illusion that supporters of the Discovery Institute will EVER be swayed to a fair or impartial perspective. I don't expect to counter facism with politeness.

you're blind.

[Stephen Morgan]

Mac, I don't know what's going on and I'm as I ever am.

I can't keep things civil all by myself.
I believe the deal I made was that I would "help you" to keep it civil.

Thanks for your time.

She is wedded to convictions -- in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies! --
He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.
-- Rudyard Kipling

Except that's how everyone is behaving. Especially wintler.

But C_w is no more attached to the Christian Right than I am.

Now let's just hope the board behaves while justdrew is on his sabbatical.

Out of interest, does anyone here actually believe in creationism?

[vanlose kid]

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Out of interest, does anyone here actually believe in creationism?

i pretty much doubt that anyone does. just a hunch though.

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[vanlose kid]

needed repeating.

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No, I don't really think it does, because the implication of that nice presentation in this context is that somehow one side of the argument is acting unfairly and terribly to the other, whereas by any fair assessment there has been semi-needless shit-talking by both sides here.

As well, I don't really have any problem with reacting with vehement disagreement bordering on being a dick when I see the Discovery Institute or Ben Stein or Intelligent Design being promoted here. I have no interest in posting on a Republican conservative Christian forum. Whatsoever. Those people are EXACTLY the ones I wish to see exposed and reviled. And I'm under no illusion that supporters of the Discovery Institute will EVER be swayed to a fair or impartial perspective. I don't expect to counter facism with politeness.

sure. thing is Cw's take is best described by Wrex. she's somewhere on the sociology of science spectrum. the question she's raising is one of principle. i don't see her or anyone promoting ID anywhere. she's using it as an example. it may be a distasteful example to some but it's no more than that. painting her as a crypto-fascist right wing christian doesn't really help.

my2p.

there's a bit too much scrying into the depths of people's hidden souls going on, of the "i know what you really really think, i do" type.

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[Pierre d'Achoppement]

So anyway i am a catlover and i believe in creatonism. What can be freeing in situations like this tho is replacing ORS with ANDS, so for example with evolution OR creationism, it becomes evolution AND creatonism, not talking about teaching both here as a sort of contest, but integrating them both, have really good scientific knowledge of evolution aka the snake''s domain, but know also that crisscrossing this circle of ouroborus is a spiritual evolution that allows us to die for soemthing as abstract as an idea. The problem starts when these two sides of the same coin are taken apart, you end up with two counterfeits rightfully accusing each other of being false.

[Canadian_watcher]

I do not believe in Creationism, VK is right on the money, and Pierre: