Let's talk Turkey

[tapitsbo]

Domestic dissidents, without a doubt. As a rolling experiment in shaping the direction of our society.

[Nordic]

.
So who'd be the next hobgoblin(s) if/when ISIS and Assad are defeated? You know, to keep the populace alarmed, and hence, clamorous to be led to safety?

Besides Putin?

[tapitsbo]

^^ Interesting!

If Turkey and Russia formed a pact of their own, it would spell real trouble for NATO. Imagine if both pushed westward at the same time! I honestly have a hard time imagining another shooting war in Europe, but I suppose it's possible. I see alliance as being mostly energy and market-based, but obviously it helps to have a large weapon (and nukes) to deter outside aggression.

I posted tonight in another thread about Hillary's plan to escalate or "reset" the war in Syria if she is elected; with a goal of simultaneously defeating ISIS and Assad. I can't imagine Russia will actually like that from the Assad point of view, and Turkey won't like it from the ISIS point of view.

NATO itself will be reduced to a paper tiger given the right changes in institutions. There are certainly enough areas in Europe itching to break with its extortative agenda. As troubling as IS and even Assad are, I'm really not sure anyone here should buy messaging that suggests IS is a product of "rogue" Turkish islamists, although Erdogan sure does stink to high heaven...

Who might Hill's escalation possibly back if not jihadists? These groups should give us pause EVEN IF they have the support of "the people", in my opinion.

At this point the whole Western world needs fresh air to be shone on its underbelly. The opening of the Stasi archives post-DDR comes to mind...

[JackRiddler]

^^ Interesting!

If Turkey and Russia formed a pact of their own, it would spell real trouble for NATO. Imagine if both pushed westward at the same time!

They wouldn't do that though. Good or bad, whether or not it happens, it will be defensive, economic, and designed to consolidate domestic power for the two autocrats.

[tapitsbo]

So recently you were talking about what a dire threat such powers might be to the blessed westward-leaning democracies of Europe, though!

EVEN IF Clinton's would-be administration wins, you guys haven't seen the end of forces that will increasingly break with the status quo guarded by the small galaxy of institutions that her campaign is trying to protect.

Would be grimly funny in a few years to hear about how President Clinton OR President Trump is simply "atoning for our sins" (is this what OP ED meant?) as our societies plummet to conditions unquestionably inferior to those in regions the intellegensia once turned their noses up at.

[Novem5er]

^^ Interesting!

If Turkey and Russia formed a pact of their own, it would spell real trouble for NATO. Imagine if both pushed westward at the same time!

They wouldn't do that though. Good or bad, whether or not it happens, it will be defensive, economic, and designed to consolidate domestic power for the two autocrats.

Agreed. Like I said, it's hard to imagine a shooting-war in Europe anymore. There's simply too much money to be made through selling or transporting energy.

[tapitsbo]

I must be confused about the "shooting war" in Ukraine. This is just another free perk of the simulation, right? Educational mockumentary?

[color=#00FF00It's not like the French government is desperately trying to appease forces within its own ranks that want the current incumbents gone yesterday and are willing to shoot if they absolutely need to. Right?! ][/color]

[Belligerent Savant]

.
So who'd be the next hobgoblin(s) if/when ISIS and Assad are defeated? You know, to keep the populace alarmed, and hence, clamorous to be led to safety?

Besides Putin?

[Jerky]

"Only the dead have seen the end of war."

- Santayana

[tapitsbo]

Who is trying to force "war" though, really? Rhetorical question...

About that Turkey coup attempt, though. Anyone care to break down the implications for us? Any experts available on the factions involved?

[Novem5er]

I must be confused about the "shooting war" in Ukraine. This is just another free perk of the simulation, right? Educational mockumentary?

It's not like the French government is desperately trying to appease forces within its own ranks that want the current incumbents gone yesterday and are willing to shoot if they absolutely need to. Right?!

Ukraine is a weird one; Russia very clearly wanted Crimea for strategic reasons, and with ethnic Russians making up a majority of eastern Ukrainians, they had a casus belli. But, yes, it was surprising!

I should clarify that it's hard to imagine a shooting-war in Europe from Poland eastward! Not impossible, but its hard to imagine anyone actually gaining much from it . . . unless they went all-out, I'm talking WWIII where borders would be redrawn and entire nations saved or eliminated. Hillary wants to "reset" the war in Syria, so it's possible that Russia would want to reset Europe, too... but again, unlikely.

[tapitsbo]

Europe reset is already happening without "shooting war" but with a steady stream of extortion/terrorism/etc. Resets happening in Europe aren't a simple matter of "Russian agents" and the like but reflect shifts happening throughout the whole Western world.

Ukraine isn't the only area being reset or shaped by these dynamics - there is the Caucasus, Balkans, Central Asia, and obviously the Middle East, North Africa, and the rest of the world.

The whole question of why Russia and the West are at odds while entities like some gulf arab regimes and israel seemingly get along just fine with both sides, and syrians/libyans/iraqis have to deal with the "shooting war", is worth considering, imo.

There is no transparent dialogue in Western institutions about Russia's "enemy" status, just as there is no transparent dialogue about, say, Qatar's "friend" status.

All I'm saying is that even if Clinton wins let alone Trump the endless small conflicts are going to wipe away the ideological status quo that was once hungrily defended centimetre by centimetre on this very board.

What is the NATO style narrative really worth? For Westerners, rejecting it need not entail adopting the ideas of the supposed "other side"...

[Nordic]

Russia and the US are "at odds" for the simple reason that the US is being extremely provocative and downright aggressive.

Russia has been quite happy to mind it's own business and pursue mutually beneficial relations with its neighbors except for the US running around like a drunken bully.

Of course here in the US the massive propaganda storm about "Russian aggression" has severely infected the minds of almost everyone. Just today I got in a friendly argument about it with a guy.

Russia has shown nothing but defensive postures and that includes Crimea where they already had a large base, for decades, and tens of thousands of troops. To shore that up against the Ukrainian disaster was hardly "aggressive". And you can bet the citizens of the Crimea are damn happy about it because their brains and bones aren't splattered on the streets like thousands of Donbass civilians who have been the target of a criminal and murderous attempted genocide. Where we now have troops on the ground training the neonazi scum so they can prepare for the next onslaught.

[PufPuf93]

Here is the sense in which Gulen is considered liberal (for Islam) by some.

"Gülen teaches a Hanafi version of Islam, deriving from Sunni Muslim scholar Said Nursî's teachings. Gülen has stated that he believes in science, interfaith dialogue among the People of the Book, and multi-party democracy.[12] He has initiated such dialogue with the Vatican[13] and some Jewish organizations.[14]

Gülen is actively involved in the societal debate concerning the future of the Turkish state, and Islam in the modern world. He has been described in the English-language media as an imam "who promotes a tolerant Islam which emphasises altruism, hard work and education" and as "one of the world's most important Muslim figures."[15][12]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_G%C3%BClen

The Alliance for Shared Values (AFSV) is a New York-based[1] nonprofit umbrella organization and major part of the Gülen movement.

Goals and organization[edit]

Having been inspired by Turkish preacher Fethullah Gülen, their stated goal is to "[serve] as a voice for civic, culture and service organizations around the U.S dedicated to promoting community service, education and interfaith dialogue."[2] The president of the organization is Alp Aslandogan.[3]

Member groups[edit]

According to the official website, the following groups are a part of the Alliance for Shared Values:[4]
Atlantic Insitute, formerly known as the Istanbul Cultural Center,[5] a non-profit group from West Columbia, South Carolina that "promotes dialogue between different faiths, cultures and religions." AI holds a free iftar annually where non-Muslims can introduce themselves to Muslim traditions regarding Ramadan, and where questions are answered by the institute.[6] Similarly, it organizes cultural interfaith events in South Carolina.[7] The institute also occasionally paid for trips to Turkey for legislators in South Carolina. Its president and director is Akif Aydin.[8]
Rumi Forum, based in Washington, D.C..[9][10] In April 2016, they hosted a religious extremism debate in Charlottesville, Virginia.[11] In June 2016, they hosted an iftar similar to that of the Atlantic Institute in Albemarle County, Virginia.[12] Its president is Emre Çelik.[13] The Rumi Forum is active in Pakistan as a think tank for promoting intercultural and intellectual dialogue by inviting Turkish scholars to deliver lectures in universities.[14]
Pacifica Institute, a nationwide nonprofit organization of based in South Salt Lake, Utah. In February 2015, the institute sponsored and hosted a screening of "Love is a Verb", a documentary on Fethullah Gulen's life.[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_ ... red_Values

[conniption]

^^^ Then again, maybe not...

NEO

25.07.2016
Author: F. William Engdahl
What is Fethullah Gülen?