Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

[FourthBase]

Are there no lengths...

Actually, Mac, it's a real and growing practice, basically working for hours trying to revive the technically-dead, get the heart going, keep the brain on ice, etc. There was a Guardian story about the doctor pushing for this approach earlier this year. Strange, but true. So, it's possible dude could be "DOA" and still frantically worked on. Possible. Unlikely, but possible.

[hiddenite]

"brush salesman"


Re the body, what happened to the suicide vest imploding explanation for the huge ugly rent in his side ? What explanation for the corpse images in the media at all ? How come not a single student or teacher or anyone contacted any agency to say they recognized the brothers , from the released vids ?

late but there

I believe the large wound was explained as a medical procedure where they opened him up to drain blood from pleural cavity, dont quote me on that one . They could have been working on him from the ambulance through his hospital stay, if he never maintained respirations or a heartbeat on his own then he would still be considered DOA. Appeal to the Gods for forgivance if I have missed a previously stated "fact". . Also its Approximate since we are getting so picky

Thanks , and the big purpleness ?

[Burnt Hill]

justdrew wrote:the dead can often be revived MacCruiskeen, if they got him to the hospital quickly enough.

Yes, from personal experience.

[Burnt Hill]

"brush salesman"


Re the body, what happened to the suicide vest imploding explanation for the huge ugly rent in his side ? What explanation for the corpse images in the media at all ? How come not a single student or teacher or anyone contacted any agency to say they recognized the brothers , from the released vids ?

late but there

I believe the large wound was explained as a medical procedure where they opened him up to drain blood from pleural cavity, dont quote me on that one . They could have been working on him from the ambulance through his hospital stay, if he never maintained respirations or a heartbeat on his own then he would still be considered DOA. Appeal to the Gods for forgivance if I have missed a previously stated "fact". . Also its Approximate since we are getting so picky

Thanks , and the big purpleness ?

Thats the ecchymosis I mentioned earlier, caused by trauma of some sort, potentially from having been run over by a car.

[Burnt Hill]

Are there no lengths...

Actually, Mac, it's a real and growing practice, basically working for hours trying to revive the technically-dead, get the heart going, keep the brain on ice, etc. There was a Guardian story about the doctor pushing for this approach earlier this year. Strange, but true. So, it's possible dude could be "DOA" and still frantically worked on. Possible. Unlikely, but possible.

Its not even unlikely, the EMTs or Hospital staff will continue until an MD says stop. He would have to at least have had a pulse when the ambulance workers got him there though.

[hiddenite]

So I got the colour right according to google , thanks again .

[stillrobertpaulsen]

37c: Appx Time of Death: UNKNOWN

http://documents.latimes.com/tamerlan-t ... rtificate/

WTF??? He can't even say approximately?

My exact reaction. Reeks of bullshit cover-up.

[MacCruiskeen]

Dead Boston Marathon bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev ‘got the best care' you can give, says ER doctor who raced to save dying terrorist’s life

After hearing gunshots and explosions near his Watertown home, Dr. David Schoenfeld rushed to work at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, where he treated the mortally wounded killer.

Comments (16)
By Tracy Miller / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, April 19, 2013, 4:08 PM

Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the older of the two brothers who terrorized the city of Boston, died at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center early Friday morning following a standoff with police. Doctors rushed to save his life as they would with any other patient, ER physician Dr. David Schoenfeld said. [NB, Dr. Schoenfeld is the second named doctor, following Dr. Wolfe.)

Dr. David Schoenfeld was at home in Watertown, Mass., watching the news when he heard police cars race past his house, followed by gunshots and explosions.

The 32-year-old emergency room physician rushed into work at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, anticipating a host of casualties. But only one patient arrived: marathon bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who would die of his wounds as doctors worked to revive him.

[...]

A team of trauma surgeons, nurses and technicians used "all the lifesaving measures that we can and deployed every resource that we had to attempt to save him," Schoenfeld told NPR's Morning Edition.

[...]

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/h ... -1.1322092

It gets even more interesting:

Tsarnaev, 26, arrived at the ER in cardiac arrest with multiple traumatic injuries, including burns on his right shoulder and chest and a large penetrating wound on his torso, which could have been caused by a bullet or shrapnel, Schoenfeld told news outlets.

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/h ... -1.1322092

No "large penetrating wound on his torso" mentioned anywhere in the coroner's report. Also no burns mentioned anywhere in the coroner's report.

And indeed, they do look much more like burns to this layman's eye. But also to the eye of Dr. David Schoenfeld, who is certainly no layman, and who thought those wounds worth mentioning to the media. And nowhere are either he or Dr. Wolfe reported as having said, or even hinted, that the patient was "DOA".

[hiddenite]

OK so is the large penetrating wound that huge gash in his side ? And were the burns ascribed earlier to throwing pressure cookers /suicide vets ? Seems extraordinary that this part of the story is so intangiblel ?

[Burnt Hill]

If he was run over he may have been dragged a bit which could look like burns, or came into contact with the muffler. And if it was a "penetrating" wound seems they would have found the bullet or shapnel unless it passed through him and I am sorry I cant remember what the name of that wound would be.

[Burnt Hill]

Side bar- I remember working on an elderly lady who coded (cardiac, repiratory failure) we took turns doing CPR and one nurse kept talking to her telling her not to go, we did CPR for 20 minutes (broke a couple of her ribs doing it) and finally got a rhythm(pulse of some sort). The next day she told us the only thing she remembered was the lady telling her not to go, so she didnt.

[compared2what?]

Beeline argues that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is guilty because (wait for it...you won't regret it ... .cue drumroll)... he acted so goddam innocent! And if that isn't suspicious, beeline doesn't know what is.

I thought his point was more that their having acted normal wasn't exculpatory.

Act normal, act abnormal, and they're like whatever, hey, c'mon, he musta had something to do with it, what are you a conspiracy nut or what. In fact nothing whatsoever counts as exculpatory once Mister Source and his Fourth Estate have got their greasy mitts on you. QED.

Yeah. Beeline's point didn't have anything to do with any of that.

It was that since the guilty wish to appear and therefore act innocent, acting innocent isn't probative of innocence.

But if you're saying it's also not probative, I agree.

Jolly good. I am happy that you agree with me that acting normal is at least not proof of guilt.

Agreement on that point is probably universal, since it would be mindless and nonsensical to argue otherwise.

Where you're on your own is with the inverse, equal argument that it's proof of innocence, challenges to which you're presently refusing to acknowledge by dragging out Mr. Source and his Fourth Estate army of straw.

So you're on your own there.

Anyway, such routine reversal of the burden of proof is now apparently de rigeur for all good liberals on this board and off it,

Where precisely the fuck does that liberal-bashing find its justification?

From all over this thread, and from elsewhere, e.g. from the comments box at the ridiculous Huffington Post and [choose your liberal outlet at random]. In fact, in this particular instance, it comes from precisely the line of 8bit's I was quoting and replying to, which you chose (for some reason) to leave out:

Honestly, it didn't dawn on me that you were referring to 8bit. Of all people. That's hilarious. Please find me the 8bit quote that led you to believe that he was a liberal. I can't wait.

I personally see no reason to think these brothers are "innocent"

No explanation of the scare quotes. Anyway, such routine reversal of the burden of proof is now apparently de rigeur for all good liberals on this board and off it, although any talk of rigour is clearly misplaced. Intuitions, by contrast, are still all the rage:

I definitely believe they were proud in dropping off the bombs and the cambridge/waterton aftermath.

^^That is from where precisely the fuck. HTH.

I really have to start reading the whole post before replying.

Also:

Are you fucking kidding? Where is the liberalism in that statement? Or, ftm, the politics? Is disagreeing with you now not only a legal violation but a political thought crime that consigns everyone who does it to wearing the Scarlet "L"? Or what?

Back in a moment.

[compared2what?]

I
The burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard that applies exclusively to the state. And not to anybody else. For the reasons I think I gave the last time I explained that..

So it can't be routinely reversed by liberals, pinkos, commies, radicals or -- in short -- any people of any conveniently disparagable political tendency you care to name if they're not charging and prosecuting anyone while acting in their capacities as officers of the court.

It's impossible. Can't be done. The obligation doesn't exist. Accusing people who think he did it of reversing the burden of proof is basically just a way of saying, "I disagree, so it's a shameful and injurious violation of a higher principle for you to speak." Or suggesting it, anyway. It doesn't mean anything else.

Christ!! I'm sorry! I thought this was a courtroom! I thought no one was entitled to his opinion!

Don't turn that bullshit around on me. It's not like I was trying to intimidate you with false suggestions of moral/legal turpitude as part of a personality-based political smear campaign.

You should be sorry.

.

Sheesh, what came over me? [Note to self: Cut down on the ketamine.]

If you like. But fwiw, I don't think I've ever seen too much of that turn anyone into a hypocrite. So I doubt it'll help.

{IMAGE OF GIRL HOLDING SIGN SAYING "THANKS FOR SPANKING ME DAD" DELETED HERE FOR LENGTH. AND FOR JUST LOOKING BAD, I ADMIT. THAT'S WHAT MAC"S REFERRING TO BELOW, THO -- C2W

Or mom. Whatever. That spanking done me good. I now accept that everyone's opinion about any accused criminal is Totally Valid. Born again, I now wonder what that weirdo Zola was getting so worked up about. He must been some kinda conspiracy nut, or else he was hallucinating and thought he was in a courtroom.

Oh my god. I can't believe that you just defaulted to

Since you say I'm using the phrase "burden of proof" as a club to browbeat, intimidate and bully my opponents when I can't say they're wrong, and I also can't say you're wrong, that means you don't believe in conspiracies and are censoring me.

PS: Which reminds me of something about the Dreyfus Affair. Or maybe J'Accuse. But long story short: I'm a heroic, wrongfully persecuted martyr. .

Seriously. Can't believe it. I think I'm just going to pretend it didn't happen. Best for everyone that way.

[hiddenite]

[url]http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/mounting-evidence-boston-bombers-involved-2011-triple-murder/story?id=19151271#.UY2E2bXqk71[/url

I posted a link about this a week back, about a guy who was not considered despite attacking dealers in the vicinity and being chased off by 3 other guys .

Odd to me that they need to be dragging this one up as well as the bombing charges ,or is that mistaken?

[compared2what?]

Despite claims in the media which originated from law enforcement, Dr. Richard Wolfe, head of the hospital’s Emergency Department, could not see any evidence of this claim. The Boston Herald reported:

When asked about reports that Tsarnaev was run over by a vehicle driven by his fleeing brother, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Wolfe said he did not see any obvious injuries that would back up that theory.

“I certainly did not see any tire marks or the usual things we see with someone run over by a car,” he said.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/04/19/g ... -tsarnaev/

Now the corpse has vanished without trace, having last been seen by Uncle Ruslan and His Three Friends after a "mix-up" (sic) in which it landed at the wrong funeral parlour.

What's going on here?

They used a quote that was responsive to a question that someone asked about reports that Tsarnaev was run over by a vehicle driven by his fleeing brother. And also phrased in such a way as to prompt what he said. Such as:

There have been reports that Tsarnaev was run over by a vehicle driven by his fleeing brother. Did you see anything that suggested that's what killed him?

Or maybe not.

But it's a lot likelier than that the spooks didn't get around to telling him he was part of a plot to cover that shit up until he'd already talked to the media and was filling out the form. I mean, I understand that mistakes get made. But when concealing the cause of death is the reason that there's a plot to begin with, you have to figure letting the guy who's going to cover your ass with the media know about it is something you take care of before you hand over the corpse. Nobody's that sloppy.