Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Fri May 10, 2013 7:54 pm

I searched and could not find this Justin Raimondo article from May 1 posted here. I'll be boldprinting and enlarging what stood out for me.

Tamerlan Tsarnaev and the Penumbra of Terror

The Boston Marathon bombers had help
by Justin Raimondo, May 01, 2013
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The semi-official story coming out of Washington, and the Western media, is that the Tsarnaev brothers were “self-radicalized” loners, “losers,” as their uncle Ruslan put it, unconnected to any larger organization or terrorist network. The poor babies were so alienated by life in America – where they had been given refugee status, welfare payments, and, in Dzhokhar’s case, citizenship – that they suddenly decided to carry out a terrorist act in which three were killed and hundreds wounded.

Move along, nothing to see here …

There’s just one problem with this story: it’s unraveling.

As we learn more about Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s travels through Russia – he visited Dagestan, and went to Chechnya, in 2012 – and the Russian media examines his trail, a picture emerges of the penumbra of terror that hovered over and around him. Two names have cropped up: Makhmud Mansur Nidal, an 18-year-old of Chechen and Palestinian heritage, and recruiter for the Chechen insurgency, who was observed meeting with Tamerlan six times, and William Plotnick, a Canadian of Russian ethnicity – and, like Tamerlan, a boxer – who traveled to Dagestan in 2010. There Plotnick was interrogated by the authorities – who gave Tamerlan as one of his contacts: the two had communicated online via the web site of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth.

Plotnick came to Toronto, Canada, at the age of 15, the son of Christian ethnic Russians from Siberia: like Tamerlan, who was a Golden Gloves champion, Plotnick was a rising star in the world of amateur boxing, where he won medals and was praised by his coach as having Olympian potential. However, his conversion to Islam in 2009 put him on a different path – and he wound up dead less than three years later, in a firefight with security forces in the hinterlands of Dagestan.

Plotnick’s parents were puzzled and worried about their son’s sudden transformation into a religious fanatic, but their remonstrations were to no avail. One day they found a note on the kitchen table, informing them that he had gone to France “to celebrate Ramadan,” after emptying the family bank account of $3,500. Months passed with no word from him, until they found out he had – somehow – turned up in Moscow, where he was staying at the apartment of a mutual friend from Toronto.

From there he went on to Dagestan: by this time his frantic father had contacted Russia’s FSB, and they paid him a visit: they interrogated him about his online contacts, and he gave Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s name – which is how the Marathon bombing mastermind first showed up on their radar screen. The FSB released Plotnick and told him to go home: instead he went back to Moscow, briefly, but soon returned to Dagestan and joined up with the Chechen insurgents.

Plotnick starred in one of their propaganda videos – really, a recruiting video – which was circulated around the internet. He interviews a Turkish recruit, asking him “What do you do?” “Terrorism” is the reply. “I kill kaffirs.” Sitting down next to him, Plotnick addresses his audience directly:

“We have food to cook and eat, thanks to Allah. And also have brothers and try to do as much as we can for Allah. Kafirs, you’re not going to get what you expect. Allah is with us. He protects us. You don’t have a protector.

“We will kill you. We’re going to build plans against you. But no matter how many plans you make, nothing is going to succeed because whatever He described in His book is the truth. Allah is the truth. All of you others are waste, garbage.”

Plotnick was killed in an ambush by security forces on July 13, 2012. Tsarnaev left for the United States three days later.

“We’re going to build plans against you” – plans in which Tamerlan Tsarnaev played a key part?

The answer to that question is not yet clear, but there is some evidence pointing in that direction. To begin with, the two were in communication, and it’s possible they could have met in person when Tamerlan attended a boxing event and visited his aunt who lives in Toronto. Secondly, on his Youtube site, Tamerlan posted videos valorizing Plotnick’s group, led by one Gadhzhimurad Dolgatov, a Russian convert to Islam and a local commander of the Caucasian “Emirate” Chechen terrorist group. Dolgatov was killed in a shootout with security forces in December of last year, in Makhachkala, the regional capital of Dagestan where Tsarnaev stayed during his Russian sojourn and where his parents live today.

All of this raises some intriguing questions, but for the moment let us step back and look at the bigger picture. Clearly, there is an extensive recruiting effort by Chechen terrorist groups to draw in fighters from around the world: Plotnick, and apparently Tsarnaev, were drawn into this web. But what kind of help did they have? How did Plotnick, who only had $3,500 Canadian on him when he left for France, manage to live abroad for months and travel to Russia? What did he use for money? Tsarnaev’s financial condition was similar: how does an unemployed ex-boxer travel to Dagestan and otherwise support himself? There are news accounts saying the Tsarnaev brothers may have financed their terrorist plot by selling marijuana, but how does one travel to Dagestan and otherwise move about with no regular source of income?

For that, we turn to the Russian daily Izvestia and the Russian-1 television network, which report the contents of an intelligence dossier leaked by Col. Grigory Chanturia, of the Georgian Ministry of Internal Affairs, which claims that, in the summer of 2010, an organization calling itself the “Caucasian Fund,” or, alternately, the “Kavkazsky Fund,” co-sponsored with the Washington, D.C.-based Jamestown Foundation a series of “seminars” for North Caucasian youth – and that Tamerlan was one of the attendees.

The Fund was set up after the Georgian-Ossetian war, with $2.5 million expended to do “outreach” to “North Caucasian youth.” The program brought in Chechens and others from the European diaspora, and reportedly encouraged the participants in their militance: is this how Plotnick made it from France to Dagestan?

In response to these reports, the newly-elected President of Georgia, Bidzina Ivanishvili, made a remarkable statement that has been completely ignored in the Western media:

“It is possible that terrorists had been trained in Georgia, but the investigation is underway. Let’s wait for its results. We will get a lot of new information, maybe even some shocking findings. There are suspicions that the authorities worked with terrorists and militants. If this information is confirmed, this will be shocking.”


To say the least.


In response to the charge that the previous government had been in the business of harboring terrorists, former Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, on a visit to the US, said “America will not take Ivanishvili’s words seriously.”

Perhaps not, but it seems passing strange that the elected President of one of our biggest allies in the Caucasus is investigating this possibility, while the American media – which has been obsessed with tracing the trail of the Boston Marathon terrorists – has so far ignored the Georgian connection.

That the Saakashvili government had every interest in destabilizing Russia’s hold over neighboring Dagestan is beyond dispute: the two countries fought a war in 2008, and were bitter enemies well before that. According to Radio Free Europe, a report by the new Public Defender in Georgia says that the Georgian Interior Ministry under Saakasvili “recruited and flew to Tbilisi from Europe up to 120 refugees from the North Caucasus, primarily Chechens, to undergo training prior to crossing the border into Russia and joining the insurgency. The men were housed in apartments in Tbilisi, trained at the Shavnabada and Vaziani military bases, and issued with licenses for their weapons.”

Izvestia says the Caucasus Fund was shuttered in late 2012 because it had attracted the FSB’s attention, and one former official of the group is quoted as saying the organization has been almost entirely defunct since January. However, they do have a web site, and, conveniently an American office in Boston. They are described here as a commercial venture, with capitalization of $92 million. $30 million of that comes from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC), a joint US government-private sector agency. Both the Fund and the Jamestown Foundation deny any involvement.

While the details still have to be fleshed out, one thing is clear: Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s journey to the finish line at the Boston Marathon wasn’t the hegira of a “lone nut” who acted without direction, compatriots, or outside help. Remember Plotnick’s last known message to the West: “We’re going to build plans against you.”

And so they did.

The Georgian connection points to a classic case of “blowback.” A covert operation conducted against the Russian government, originally, that got out of hand – and came back to bite the hand that fed it. The irony here is that such figures as Zbigniew Brzezinski, who sits on the board of the Jamestown Foundation, were responsible for the anti-Soviet “strategy” that allied the US with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan when the Russians invaded – a ruse that backfired spectacularly on September 11, 2001.


I'm not holding my breath, but this sounds like it has the chance of being a legitimate investigation. My hopes are higher for Bidzina Ivanishvili to conduct an honest investigation than the FBI, especially if someone like that pompous CYA grandstander Richard DesLauriers is in charge. We'll see, I'll definitely keep my eyes peeled for it, since the Western media won't.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Fri May 10, 2013 7:55 pm

barracuda wrote:What seems to be an eyewitness to the death of Tamerlan Tsarnaev at 11:35 in this video:





For those who missed it.

Also, Alex Jones's info-warrior just does a pricelessly sneaky thing with his follow-up question to the eyewitness at 11:35 in that video. But no dice. Worth watching.

He's the same guy who looked so much more dignified than whoever was yelling at him about being a fucking clown who said the FBI did it that he won the argument while barely saying a word. I kind of like him.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Fri May 10, 2013 8:03 pm

stillrobertpaulsen wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:


WTF??? He can't even say approximately?


My exact reaction. Reeks of bullshit cover-up.


Do you know what the customary usages are?

I mean, you know. What the circumstances are under which it's customary to put "Unknown" for time of death?

I don't. So it's a non-rhetorical question.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Burnt Hill » Fri May 10, 2013 8:05 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
justdrew wrote:the dead can often be revived MacCruiskeen, if they got him to the hospital quickly enough.


Oh FFS, drew. Are there no lengths...

Moving on:



WTF??? He can't even say approximately?

Pronounced time of death 1:35, as per certificate, impossible to determine exact time of death considering the circumstances. If he/she had given an exact time then that would also be open to question.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Burnt Hill » Fri May 10, 2013 8:11 pm

compared2what? wrote:
stillrobertpaulsen wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:


WTF??? He can't even say approximately?


My exact reaction. Reeks of bullshit cover-up.


Do you know what the customary usages are?

I mean, you know. What the circumstances are under which it's customary to put "Unknown" for time of death?

I don't. So it's a non-rhetorical question.

I've seen it when someone dies in the ambulance during transport, the crew is working on him and cannot pronounce, arrives at hospital with a flatline but they keep working, rhythm may come back, it didnt so time of death is somewhere in that timeline of however long, but exact time is unknown.
On Edit- various cardiac rhythms(electrical activity not neccessarily conducive to life) may appear during CPR and medications such as Atropine, therefore prolonging CPR
2nd Edit-Atropine - antagonises the action of the vagus nerve and is indicated in asystole and in pulseless electrical activity (PEA) when the QRS rate is <60 a minute.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Fri May 10, 2013 8:39 pm

Burnt Hill wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
stillrobertpaulsen wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:


WTF??? He can't even say approximately?


My exact reaction. Reeks of bullshit cover-up.


Do you know what the customary usages are?

I mean, you know. What the circumstances are under which it's customary to put "Unknown" for time of death?

I don't. So it's a non-rhetorical question.

I've seen it when someone dies in the ambulance during transport, the crew is working on him and cannot pronounce, arrives at hospital with a flatline but they keep working, rhythm may come back, it didnt so time of death is somewhere in that timeline of however long, but exact time is unknown.
On Edit- various cardiac rhythms(electrical activity not neccessarily conducive to life) may appear during CPR and medications such as Atropine, therefore prolonging CPR
2nd Edit-Atropine - antagonises the action of the vagus nerve and is indicated in asystole and in pulseless electrical activity (PEA) when the QRS rate is <60 a minute.


Thanks Burnt Hill. I'll defer to your expertise on that question, cuz I didn't have an answer.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Burnt Hill » Fri May 10, 2013 8:52 pm

Glad I could help, stillrobertpaulsen :basicsmile
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri May 10, 2013 10:31 pm

(I love Cryptogon, and I was pleased to see the Patriot Ledger link to the mysterious Quincy plane/drone at the top of Cryptogon, but hey, "HPLovecraft666", whoever you are, lurker or alias of some regular: At least give a general credit to the RI board in general, next time, okay? Thanks!)
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri May 10, 2013 10:43 pm

Burnt Hill wrote:Side bar- I remember working on an elderly lady who coded (cardiac, repiratory failure) we took turns doing CPR and one nurse kept talking to her telling her not to go, we did CPR for 20 minutes (broke a couple of her ribs doing it) and finally got a rhythm(pulse of some sort). The next day she told us the only thing she remembered was the lady telling her not to go, so she didnt.


\Totally OT but anyway.

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby justdrew » Fri May 10, 2013 10:52 pm

FourthBase wrote:(I love Cryptogon, and I was pleased to see the Patriot Ledger link to the mysterious Quincy plane/drone at the top of Cryptogon, but hey, "HPLovecraft666", whoever you are, lurker or alias of some regular: At least give a general credit to the RI board in general, next time, okay? Thanks!)


small planes fly in circles all the time (well from time to time) - it's probably someone working on getting their pilots license. Also, they provide no reason whatsoever to believe it's the same plane for 6-10 hours, likely it's different ones or different flights of the same plane. but congratulations to the wingnut paranoid right, they've launched another floater in to the info-toilet.

Private-Plane Owners Can’t Keep Flight Plan Secret, FAA Says
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri May 10, 2013 11:08 pm

justdrew wrote:
FourthBase wrote:(I love Cryptogon, and I was pleased to see the Patriot Ledger link to the mysterious Quincy plane/drone at the top of Cryptogon, but hey, "HPLovecraft666", whoever you are, lurker or alias of some regular: At least give a general credit to the RI board in general, next time, okay? Thanks!)


small planes fly in circles all the time (well from time to time) - it's probably someone working on getting their pilots license. Also, they provide no reason whatsoever to believe it's the same plane for 6-10 hours, likely it's different ones or different flights of the same plane. but congratulations to the wingnut paranoid right, they've launched another floater in to the info-toilet.

Private-Plane Owners Can’t Keep Flight Plan Secret, FAA Says


Are you joking? You have got to be joking. Please tell me you're joking.
This was a local news story, dude. Saw it on news. Looked it up. Posted link.
Then someone tips off Cryptogon. Now it's a right-wing disinfo dookie? LOL.
These people in Quincy know what a small plane is. They're not stupid.
They know when something is weird and out-of-the-ordinary.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby justdrew » Fri May 10, 2013 11:17 pm

FourthBase wrote:
justdrew wrote:
FourthBase wrote:(I love Cryptogon, and I was pleased to see the Patriot Ledger link to the mysterious Quincy plane/drone at the top of Cryptogon, but hey, "HPLovecraft666", whoever you are, lurker or alias of some regular: At least give a general credit to the RI board in general, next time, okay? Thanks!)


small planes fly in circles all the time (well from time to time) - it's probably someone working on getting their pilots license. Also, they provide no reason whatsoever to believe it's the same plane for 6-10 hours, likely it's different ones or different flights of the same plane. but congratulations to the wingnut paranoid right, they've launched another floater in to the info-toilet.

Private-Plane Owners Can’t Keep Flight Plan Secret, FAA Says


Are you joking? You have got to be joking. Please tell me you're joking.
This was a local news story, dude. Saw it on news. Looked it up. Posted link.
Then someone tips off Cryptogon. Now it's a right-wing disinfo dookie? LOL.
These people in Quincy know what a small plane is. They're not stupid.
They know when something is weird and out-of-the-ordinary.


it was a story because a rumor campaign started around trainee pilots getting their hours in. Then they campaigned to pester the local station until they did a story about it. All of a sudden people start looking up and noticing what's been there all along. A common thing man. A textbook Influencing Operation.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2010/April/tech_turns.html
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri May 10, 2013 11:36 pm

justdrew wrote:
FourthBase wrote:
justdrew wrote:
FourthBase wrote:(I love Cryptogon, and I was pleased to see the Patriot Ledger link to the mysterious Quincy plane/drone at the top of Cryptogon, but hey, "HPLovecraft666", whoever you are, lurker or alias of some regular: At least give a general credit to the RI board in general, next time, okay? Thanks!)


small planes fly in circles all the time (well from time to time) - it's probably someone working on getting their pilots license. Also, they provide no reason whatsoever to believe it's the same plane for 6-10 hours, likely it's different ones or different flights of the same plane. but congratulations to the wingnut paranoid right, they've launched another floater in to the info-toilet.

Private-Plane Owners Can’t Keep Flight Plan Secret, FAA Says


Are you joking? You have got to be joking. Please tell me you're joking.
This was a local news story, dude. Saw it on news. Looked it up. Posted link.
Then someone tips off Cryptogon. Now it's a right-wing disinfo dookie? LOL.
These people in Quincy know what a small plane is. They're not stupid.
They know when something is weird and out-of-the-ordinary.


it was a story because a rumor campaign started around trainee pilots getting their hours in. Then they campaigned to pester the local station until they did a story about it. All of a sudden people start looking up and noticing what's been there all along. A common thing man. A textbook Influencing Operation.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2010/April/tech_turns.html


You are so, so, so purely speculating. Ridiculously so.
The common people of Quincy are noticing weird plane-type shit.
All of the officials -- ALL OF THEM -- say "NTSHMA", and...
You're linking to some 2010 random crap, i.e. NTSHMA.

Quit it. Think better.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby justdrew » Fri May 10, 2013 11:43 pm

you're acting like a kitten and the operators have a laser pointer.

Can't you see how easy it is to gin this up? The link shows you that this is a part of normal flight training. Most likely form a nearby smaller airport. The flight plans are no doubt available. In the news story there's not mention one of looking for flight plans. It is not the officials job to hunt down every non-event story and hold hands while they walk who knows how many people stirred up by this rumor through a complete understanding of the world around them.

I have witnessed exactly the same circle flying here in PDX in the late 90s. If I went and stared at the sky for awhile I could probably see the same thing again. They're relatively low and slow and won't be visible unless you have the right vantage in the right parts of the city.




ok, not a trainee, looking down the comments, from yesterday we find:
yoyolandre | 1 day ago

it never amazes me to see how vocal some people can be. From my personal experience, it's unfortunately people unencumbered by the weight of knowledge or thoughtfulness who are the most vocal.

so here are a few *FACTS*...
1) One of the aircrafts circling was, as Mike Gund said, a Cessna 182T, Tail # N906TM. it is *NOT* a drone. There were, however, more than 1 plane. How do I know the tail # ? I took a picture of it Thursday evening....
2) it has what looks like a camera attachment behind the left main gear, which suggests that this aircraft was doing some sort of surveillance of the area. it could be a variety of things, but an educated guess would point to visual and / or IR surveillance of the area for unusual activity. for example, pot-growing operations generate a lot of heat. these were cool days, so a large heat signature would be easily picked up.
3) when contacted for information, the mayor's office was forthcoming in that they weren't fully aware of what was going on, BUT they were meeting with the FAA yesterday to see what was going on. The call was returned stating the plane was performing some sort of surveillance for a federal law enforcement department and no further information was available.
4) the surveillance could have been done with better cooperation from local authorities by informing the mayor's office and local police of the activities ahead of time, which would have allowed for a better message delivered to constituents.
5) People saw something, said something and got an answer. it may not be an answer we like, but it's an answer.
6) The Democrats, the marathon bombers, whitey and the UN have nothing to do with this.

I'm actually rather satisfied with the answer we got and laud the mayor's office for taking action when constituents reached out to ask questions. and no, I didn't even vote for Koch.

so for now, I'll enjoy the rainy weather and the return of the normal hum of the city outside my windows.
Last edited by justdrew on Fri May 10, 2013 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby barracuda » Fri May 10, 2013 11:54 pm

compared2what? wrote:
barracuda wrote:What seems to be an eyewitness to the death of Tamerlan Tsarnaev at 11:35 in this video:





For those who missed it.

Also, Alex Jones's info-warrior just does a pricelessly sneaky thing with his follow-up question to the eyewitness at 11:35 in that video. But no dice. Worth watching.

He's the same guy who looked so much more dignified than whoever was yelling at him about being a fucking clown who said the FBI did it that he won the argument while barely saying a word. I kind of like him.


I'm glad you brought that up. I find the gentleman being interviewed at 11:35 to be a pretty good witness, at least in the courtroom of my personal opinion regarding the Tsarnaev's presence at the Watertown shootout, and the details of the death of Tamerlan. He's clear about what he saw, he evidences a touch of irony, he's not mislead by the little sneaky thing, he's going against the story the reporter is trying to sell, and he's being interviewed by InfoWartz, so it's just barely within the realm of possibility he's not a crisis actor, as I seriously doubt Mister Jones would shell out real money for such a thing.

Anyway, it is a ordinary and believable enough telling of the bones of the event to satisfy me that whoever the guy on the FBI video known as "Suspect Number 1" is probably dead, and that it was actually "the older brother" who was dead on the ground in Watertown that night. Even if I and, I'm sure, others can think of dozens of ways to disqualify it as meaning much of anything in the way of proof of much of anything.

It's interesting to collate his brief testimony against that of Linda, who (I believe) mistakes the Mercedes SUV for a police vehicle, and to note that she reports officers shooting Tamerlan after he is run over (which I find rather probable considering the massive gun battle the police had with an actual boat the next day. BTW, can any of the sailor-types on RI identify the make of that boat? Or does anyone know if it had a christened name, like King of Piers or Sea Hag or something?). Nevertheless she clearly identifies the hit and run victim as "the first suspect", i.e. suspect #1, Tamerlan.

FourthBase might be able to tell us if anyone in Watertown could possibly have missed seeing the two brothers repeatedly featured on the TV or internet that night. Because they both seem pretty sure they knew just who they were looking at as they witnessed the firefight.

slimmouse wrote:Whilst Im no longer big by way of speculation, which is what this all is - Anyone here subscribe to the "drill gone live"? Seem to have a well established history in such scenarios, or at least an extremely good case can be made for many such atrocities being carried out in this fashion.


I do still like that theory, mostly because I just can't really come up with a great reason the FBI would have claimed not to know the identities of suspects #1 and 2 that Thursday evening.

Also, because I need a map sometimes, I'm providing myself with one:

Image

1. Bombing

2. MIT shooting

3. Carjacking

4. Carjack victim released

5. Tamerlan killed

6. Watertown search

7. Dzhokhar captured
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