Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

[MacCruiskeen]

Is it normal to handcuff a corpse?

Excellent question. Thanks, hiddenite.

Hordes of cops and spooks in the ER room, waiting around for the medics to revive a handcuffed corpse? Like hell.

[Burnt Hill]

[Not from the lungs of a corpse.]

I wish I could get a handle on the exact difference between a person who is unconscious and suffering massive cardiac and respiratory arrest on the one hand, and someone who is dead on the other. If Tamerlan was brought in to the ER not breathing, with no pulse, and not conscious, and he never revives, then wasn't he dead when he arrived there?

Or pretty goddamn close? It would seem to be a matter of the issuance of a fiat declaration by the doctors in attendance that they would no longer attempt his revival. But realistically, wasn't he was dead some indeterminate time before that? Like maybe not very long after the police unloaded their sidearms into his prone body after it emerged from the undercarriage of a speeding black Mercedes sport utility vehicle?

What bullshit anyway. Shoot him! Shoot him! I mean, revive him! Revive him!

But Tsarnaev had lost massive amounts of blood from his wounds and was suffering massive cardiac and respiratory arrest. Doctors could not revive him and declared the suspect dead about 1:35 a.m. — about 15 minutes after he was brought in.

I think you bolded the word "suffering" there mostly because it is a widely understood common-sensical notion that a corpse cannot suffer, and so he must have been alive during the act of suffering, i.e. he was undergoing actual suffering right there in the ER. But I'm not sure that what it really intends to convey, because it sounds to me as if he was flatlined from before he even entered the door of the emergency room. I don't know. He might have been suffering from a bad case of dead.

From our friend wiki-my hi-lites-
Dead on arrival (D.O.A.), also dead in the field and brought in dead (B.I.D.), is a term used to indicate that a patient was found to be already clinically dead upon the arrival of professional medical assistance, often in the form of first responders such as emergency medical technicians, paramedics, or police.

In some jurisdictions, first responders must consult verbally with a physician before officially pronouncing a patient deceased, but once cardiopulmonary resuscitation is initiated, it must be continued until a physician can pronounce the patient dead.

[MacCruiskeen]

[Not from the lungs of a corpse.]

I wish I could get a handle on the exact difference between a person who is unconscious and suffering massive cardiac and respiratory arrest on the one hand, and someone who is dead on the other. If Tamerlan was brought in to the ER not breathing, with no pulse, and not conscious, and he never revives, then wasn't he dead when he arrived there? Or pretty goddamn close?

He was pretty goddam close. No one is questioning that. The difference is real and not insignificant, though. My favourite uncle was pretty goddam close to death three times in his childhood, as was one of my favourite writers. One lived to be 68, the other is still going strong at the age of 79.

It would seem to be a matter of the issuance of a fiat declaration by the doctors in attendance that they would no longer attempt his revival.

Then why is there no record of them saying that? Why is he instead referred to as "unconscious" and "mortally wounded" etc.?

But Tsarnaev had lost massive amounts of blood from his wounds and was suffering massive cardiac and respiratory arrest. Doctors could not revive him and declared the suspect dead about 1:35 a.m. — about 15 minutes after he was brought in.

I think you bolded the word "suffering" there mostly because it is a widely understood common-sensical notion that a corpse cannot suffer, and so he must have been alive during the act of suffering, i.e. he was undergoing actual suffering right there in the ER.

No no, I took "suffering" to mean "undergoing" -- i.e., the process of cardiac and respiratory arrest was taking place (present tense/continuous form), not had already taken place (past perfect tense).

He was dying, not dead.

[Burnt Hill]

Is it normal to handcuff a corpse?

Excellent question. Thanks, hiddenite.

Hordes of cops and spooks in the ER room, waiting around for the medics to revive a handcuffed corpse? Like hell.

I imagine from a law enforcement pov he was merely unconscious and still a risk. Not a corpse.
I imagine the cuffs were removed in the ER while allowing maybe 2 or 3 leo's in the room, if that.
And or cuffed his arms to the bed to allow for medical access.

[MacCruiskeen]

I imagine flying to Venus one day.
I imagine Scarlett Johannsson will be waiting for me there. It is the planet of love, after all.

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm NOT the only one.

[Burnt Hill]

Also, you are not considered dead until you are permanently dead, which with Tamerlan it occured somewhere between trauma and pronouncement, which is why the Death certificate states unknown. I may have said this already.

[Iamwhomiam]

I imagine someday you'll answer a question put directly to you, Mac. Recognizing that I fully answered your question is too much to ask for from you, I suppose.

[FourthBase]

I imagine flying to Venus one day. I imagine Scarlett Johannsson will be waiting for me there. It is the planet of love, after all.

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm NOT the only one.

Yeah, persistence is at risk of becoming pain-in-the-ass-ence.
Of all people, I understand the urge to trash-talk those who don't get it, etc.
And while there are totally still a number of your questions still requiring better answers...
At the same time, you've been getting some pretty, pretty, pretty good ones. Thank people.
Not saying, at all, to simmer down. Oh wait, yes, I'm saying that. Simmer. Persist.
What I'm not saying is to "STFU" or whatnot. But: You're boiling. No need.

[MacCruiskeen]

I fully answered your question

Fully answered which question?

With all due respect for your qualifications as a registered nurse, BH, I think I'll stick with Dr. Wolfe and Dr. Schoenfeld of the Beth Israel Emergency team if it's dependable statements and actual medical expertise & experience I'm after. And it is. Not least because they actually viewed and handled the patient in question (later: the corpse in question) and you didn't.

[Burnt Hill]

Imagine that Tamerlan had an embedded bomb, he regains consciousness enough to press the button under his skin, exploding himself and the EMTs and ambulance.Which in this case isnt so farfetched, even if it is. Handcuff the "corpse". Oh and iam, you may call yourself a dreamer.

[Burnt Hill]

I fully answered your question

Fully answered which question?

With all due respect for your qualifications as a registered nurse, BH, I think I'll stick with Dr. Wolfe and Dr. Schoenfeld of the Beth Israel Emergency team if it's dependable statements and actual medical expertise & experience I'm after. And it is. Not least because they actually viewed and handled the patient in question (later: the corpse in question) and you didn't.

You have misquoted me Mac. I never said that.

[MacCruiskeen]

Sorry, BH and IAWIA. I mixed up ypur posts. (Replying to five people at one time here.) IAWIA, I'll get back to you later. Have to log off for a couple of hours right now.

[compared2what?]

c2w, I have your MO sussed now. Your war-of-attrition shtick is getting old, and it is no kind of dialogue. It is just relentlessly and stupidly insulting. (I knew you would accuse me of thinking I was Zola. I knew you would claim I claimed to have proof of Dzhokhar T's innocence.

Gish gallop.

Etcetera, ad n auseam.) It is worth nobody's time. So stop wasting my time and everyone else's.

Fighting a war of attrition on bullshit is what we do here. I'd rather be your ally than your enemy on that one. But some of it is up to you.

ON EDIT:

I really like you, Mac. So I rewrote my initial, much meaner response to reflect that. Apologies for it, as required.

[DrEvil]

So stop wasting my time and everyone else's.

Speak for yourself please. Your constant barrage of insults towards anyone who disagrees with you is getting really, really old.

And I'm also curious why you accept the veracity of the photos of the deceased without question, in light of your doubts in the Lanza thread. It's not very consistent.

[Burnt Hill]

DOA is not a term that is used in this case, at the hospital.


No? Never? Even if (say) a car-crash victim bleeds out completely en route to the hospital? Even if that person is clearly stone-dead and beyond rescue? What term do they use then?

I clearly stated "in this case", you presented a completely different case, which takes what I said out of context.
The case you presented might go like this -assume death was not pronounced at the scene or enroute, then CPR is initiated- hospital staff continues CPR, immediately starts IV fluid infusions(hopefully already started in ambulance) and types and cross for blood transfusion,replacing fluids lost, while other staff stops the bleeding and clamps off any artery compromised. Potential use of various meds depending on electrical activity of heart, or lack there of. Body will probably be iced down and or cooling blanket used. If this stone dead person receives critical care fast enough, the person may survive without brain damage=best case scenario. In this case the term used is thank god/science for medical advances.