Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

[Bruce Dazzling]

I note that you flatly refuse to say what points you claim to want answered from your now-largely-deleted post

This^^.

I look at it and I think:

Okay. I'm dealing with a guy whose need for power and control is absolute and knows no constraints. Who would say and do anything to me or about me that he had to in order to assert his will and satisfy his needs. Rewrite history. Alter reality. Possibly kill, but certainly tolerate it, provided it fit in with his script. A little one-man totalitarian. In short. MacCruiskeen uber alles.

It's abusive. There's nothing more so. But nobody here's going to call him out for it. Because some are going to turn away in discomfort. And the rest are looking on with enthusiasm. So I'm on my own. Best foot forward. Try to remember that he must know what it feels like to get in the way of such a person. And to be depersonned by him or her. Because he wouldn't need to do it to others if he didn't. Forward march.

That's been happening way too often these days. I don't enjoy it. But backing down from it is not a possibility. This is supposed to be an anti-fascist board.

I didn't delete anything Retract and apologize. Make it sincere.

Thanks.

, while instead acting all hurt & innocently-baffled at the fact that I am angry at having my time deliberately & incessantly wasted this way. Act nasty (really nasty), then act nicey-nice once you've succeeded in provoking anger -- that's the way it works with you. (QED again again^^.) Or rather, had worked until now.

I say what I think and feel, as appropriate to the situation, giving my reasons for both as I go. That's the way it works with me. My MO. I apologize when I'm wrong. And don't when I'm not.

Now please excuse me.

No. Apologize, you asshole.

I have enough to be going on with, what with Burnt Hill claiming (counterfactually, so to speak) that "1-2 a.m.", for example, would not fit in a box in a coroner's form that contains the word "UNKNOWN". You are not the only timewaster in town, merely the captain of the team.

You are not the fucking boss of reality. You don't get to dictate it. Or to impose it on other people. Or to grade them for how well they live up to your vision of it by passing out "Quite rights" and "Corrects" like you were awarding little badges to aspiring members of the Junior Anti-Sex League.

You also don't get to force others to use whether or not someone displeases you as the chief metric for what's good or evil and/or true or false. You can use it for yourself if you want to. But it's a fucking formula for disaster., defeat and disempowerment. Because when those are your criteria, anyone who tells you a story it pleases you to hear can make a complete fool out of you. And possibly also a slave. Since I like you, I very much hope you'll consider the wisdom of that proposition.

You should be profoundly ashamed of yourself. And very remorseful. I want an apology.

I sent a PM to Mac earlier this evening regarding his abusive posts, but as of this writing, he still hasn't read it. I chose to do it via PM because I didn't want to cause yet another derailment of this thread. Now, though, I wish that I'd have done it publicly on the off chance that it could have headed this off at the pass.

Apologies.

In any event, please stop with the personal attacks and abusive posts.

We have to be better than this. We ARE better than this, but for some reason, I think we're suffering from some kind of collective temporary insanity or something.

[compared2what?]

Thank you, you guys who said stuff of the kind I know, love and respect you for!

FB -- Not that you're not on the know, love and respect list, too. But thin-skinned? No.

Bruce -- Thanks. It's not actually the rage that bothers me. Or anything personal. If that's what it was about, I would have said so.

[Burnt Hill]

the dead can often be revived MacCruiskeen, if they got him to the hospital quickly enough. I'd expect they often attempt resuscitation on recent DOAs.

indeed!
just like the sandy hook victims.
oh wait, they were left in the school, laying on the floor, because they were obviously too dead to bother with.
couldn't even waste an ambulance ride on them.

ouch... interesting point, wrong thread, but I hear you.

Seriously? They were first-grade children, obliterated with at least two high-powered rounds each. For fuck's sake. They were dead. Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead.

Seeing how late I was responding, I won't be alerting any mods. Too late. But I will say this: C2W?, dumb move. You couldn't let it go? You've seen me. You know me as well as any virtual stranger can know another. You've seen one of the least let-things-go Southie punks on earth...let many, many things go. Yes, react. Often. Over-react, even. But even then, after the hormones have dissipated, senses re-gained...letting things go. In the interests of finding out truths. You are the board's Undisputed Champion of Reasonability. Which is why it sucks that you couldn't let it go this time. It, being your ego. Which is why it hurts, because this thread and the pursuit of the truth in the matter of these bombings means a little bit more to me personally than everyone here except a handful of members, and perhaps even them, because who else has loved ones living 500 feet from Emad Muntasser? I do. Do you? Catching the mastermind perps would be a victory for mankind, ultimately, short-term, too. But in the shortest-term, I want any secret masterminds and remaining sleeper cells out of my city, off of these streets, out of my fucking neighborhood, in jail. So I can sleep. No, living here doesn't give me the right to try to shut anyone up who might disagree with me over a fact or interpretation of an event. But living here makes everything personal to me. And what hurts my feelings is not when anyone supposedly disrespects my standing in this thread as a Bostonian. What hurts my feelings is when people prioritize their own feelings over pursuing the truth. With the maximum amount of respect expressible in pixelized words: Sorry, but, fuck your feelings. You, too, Mac, of course. You instigated and aggravated the intra-board personal bullshit and would not cede even an inch of territory on your phantom high ground. You were the worst here, by far. But no, I will not be offering C2W? any support or solace. Not here. She wasn't as bad as Mac, she was even right about Mac, but that last post, however right, was so totally-gratuitous that it makes her just as responsible. She wants to take a vacation? Cool. Come back soon. But yeah, good idea. Mac, take an even longer one, please. Learn how to simmer. If I can, anyone can.

Now, if you all don't mind, fuck this personal crap and let's get back to, say, Brian Glyn Williams.
(Really, no commentary about the personal stuff necessary. I covered it all. Move on.)

FourthBase your attempts at moderation suck, to put it in a word you have used towards others. Including my willingness to at least hear out dbcoopers remark in your screed and then insisting we have no further commentary on personal stuff is incredibly unfair. And hormones? really? And well "fuck your feelings" in any context is way off-base. To suggest you covered it all is incredible self-centered. And wildly enough you go on to make some good points but sigh, when you do alert the moderators, be sure to stand first in line.

[Burnt Hill]

the dead can often be revived MacCruiskeen, if they got him to the hospital quickly enough. I'd expect they often attempt resuscitation on recent DOAs.

indeed!
just like the sandy hook victims.
oh wait, they were left in the school, laying on the floor, because they were obviously too dead to bother with.
couldn't even waste an ambulance ride on them.

ouch... interesting point, wrong thread, but I hear you.

Seriously? They were first-grade children, obliterated with at least two high-powered rounds each. For fuck's sake. They were dead. Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead.

Seeing how late I was responding, I won't be alerting any mods. Too late. But I will say this: C2W?, dumb move. You couldn't let it go? You've seen me. You know me as well as any virtual stranger can know another. You've seen one of the least let-things-go Southie punks on earth...let many, many things go. Yes, react. Often. Over-react, even. But even then, after the hormones have dissipated, senses re-gained...letting things go. In the interests of finding out truths. You are the board's Undisputed Champion of Reasonability. Which is why it sucks that you couldn't let it go this time. It, being your ego. Which is why it hurts, because this thread and the pursuit of the truth in the matter of these bombings means a little bit more to me personally than everyone here except a handful of members, and perhaps even them, because who else has loved ones living 500 feet from Emad Muntasser? I do. Do you? Catching the mastermind perps would be a victory for mankind, ultimately, short-term, too. But in the shortest-term, I want any secret masterminds and remaining sleeper cells out of my city, off of these streets, out of my fucking neighborhood, in jail. So I can sleep. No, living here doesn't give me the right to try to shut anyone up who might disagree with me over a fact or interpretation of an event. But living here makes everything personal to me. And what hurts my feelings is not when anyone supposedly disrespects my standing in this thread as a Bostonian. What hurts my feelings is when people prioritize their own feelings over pursuing the truth. With the maximum amount of respect expressible in pixelized words: Sorry, but, fuck your feelings. You, too, Mac, of course. You instigated and aggravated the intra-board personal bullshit and would not cede even an inch of territory on your phantom high ground. You were the worst here, by far. But no, I will not be offering C2W? any support or solace. Not here. She wasn't as bad as Mac, she was even right about Mac, but that last post, however right, was so totally-gratuitous that it makes her just as responsible. She wants to take a vacation? Cool. Come back soon. But yeah, good idea. Mac, take an even longer one, please. Learn how to simmer. If I can, anyone can.

Now, if you all don't mind, fuck this personal crap and let's get back to, say, Brian Glyn Williams.
(Really, no commentary about the personal stuff necessary. I covered it all. Move on.)

FourthBase your attempts at moderation suck, to put it in a word you have used towards others. Including my willingness to at least hear out dbcoopers remark in your screed and then insisting we have no further commentary on personal stuff is incredibly unfair. And hormones? really? And well "fuck your feelings" in any context is way off-base. To suggest you covered it all is incredible self-centered. And wildly enough you go on to make some good points but sigh, when you do alert the moderators, be sure to stand first in line.

On Edit-alright I posted this before seeing/reading Bruce Dazzlings post.
Apology to the board and FB. Onward and upward.

[FourthBase]

You can just delete posts you mistakenly post. you didn't. I'm responding. One last time.

FourthBase your attempts at moderation suck, to put it in a word you have used towards others. Including my willingness to at least hear out dbcoopers remark in your screed and then insisting we have no further commentary on personal stuff is incredibly unfair.

Nothing to hear out in his remark. You know that. No reason to humor him.
The kids, all of them, were 6 or 7 years old, shot twice or more, each, and absolutely dead. The end.

I wasn't moderating, either, lol. You think that's how I would moderate??? LOL.
I was trying, my best, to speak from the exact midpoint between my heart and brain. Nothing more.

And hormones? really?

MINE.

And well "fuck your feelings" in any context is way off-base.

No, it's not. Fuck my feelings, too. Facts, theories, reality. Feelings come second.

To suggest you covered it all is incredible self-centered. And wildly enough you go on to make some good points but sigh, when you do alert the moderators, be sure to stand first in line.

Read again, it was one giant block of wildly good points, everything incredibly covered.
Cute, the notion that I'm not aware of my own history of personal umbrage-taking.
But that thing just now, that block of heartfelt good sense, was not mere umbrage.

MOVING ON.

[justdrew]

of course, the best way to be unduly influenced by feelings is to pretend they're not being felt.

[barracuda]

[FourthBase]

http://mobile.umassd.edu/web/students/s ... 66be1300e1

UMass Dartmouth Web Site

"I've enjoyed my time vastly here at UMD and I attribute that to being involved and staying busy." Originally I wanted to go to a private school—I had in mind one on Long Island and one in Washington, D.C. However, I could not afford either university. I earned the Adams Scholarship and after research I discovered that UMass Dartmouth has a great political science program at an affordable price.

I visited the campus in April of my senior year in high school. I was able to meet some political science professors as well as Michael Baum, the department chair. His youth and enthusiasm brought me to UMD. Professor Baum's enthusiasm for politics was infectious!

I've had the opportunity to be a resident assistant and serve on executive boards of various clubs. I traveled to New York City to participate in the National Model UN Conference as a member of UMD Model UN.

However, the most important and influential opportunity I have had at UMD was studying abroad in Portugal for a month in the summer. I was living in Lisbon, with fellow UMD students, earning 6 credits via two political science classes. The courses were taught by UMass Dartmouth professor Michael Baum as well as Lisbon professor Antonio Costa-Pinto. We had multiple guest lectures and trips all over Portugal.

We became immersed in the culture. All of us students felt like family after just one night. After visiting the U.S. Embassy in Lisbon, I learned what I want to do in life.

Prof. Brian Williams is my favorite professor ever. I took two of Prof. Williams' courses: Empires of Central Asia, which focuses on Afghanistan's elaborate history, and History of Terrorism in the Middle East.

In my opinion, Prof. Williams is the living Indiana Jones. He has worked for the CIA and Scotland Yard, has briefed the military of Afghanistan, lived with Dostum—an Uzbek warlord who traces his lineage to Genghis Khan—and has testified on terrorism cases. His extreme love and passion for Central Asian and Middle Eastern history makes the hundreds of pages of reading for class worthwhile.

I could listen to Prof. Williams speak for hours. I know so much now about the history of that region because he made me care to remember. Everyone, regardless of their major, will not regret taking a class with Prof. Williams. He is the cream of the crop.

GET INVOLVED! I cannot say it enough. Some students only attend their classes and go home every weekend, then they complain that there's nothing to do on campus. Nine times out of ten, that student is not involved.

I became a resident assistant my sophomore year; a senior resident assistant my junior, senior and super senior years; involved in MacGyver Experience improv comedy since freshman year; and an executive board member of National Society of Leadership and Success, Model United Nations, and Student Alumni Association.

I've also studied abroad in Portugal, attended and presented in the BACHA RA Conference, and received various awards for my achievements as an RA and a student leader, including Pillar of the Community.

It sounds like a lot, but it is all manageable. I've enjoyed my time vastly here at UMD and I attribute that to being involved and staying busy.

mobile.umassd.edu

As far as I'm concerned, every single student Williams has ever had is a person of interest, the closer to him the more interesting. "But that's not fair! Respect their privacy! Don't go on a witchhunt!" There be witches. I'm not hunting. But I'll be damned if I'm not sniffing around in every freaking square foot surrounding Williams. Witchstink. Call it whatever. I'm doing it. They're a half hour away from me. I want any bad "witches"/sleeper recruits/mastermind recruiters to GTFO of my state, country, continent, and preferably locked up.

[FourthBase]

of course, the best way to be unduly influenced by feelings is to pretend they're not being felt.

Ehhh...sometimes the best way NOT to be unduly influenced is to NOT BE INFLUENCED, lol, at all. Take it from someone who grew up in a combative Irish family who would feud and war occasionally and then get back to normal like it never happened all while nursing a silent indestructible grudge, versus my Sicilians who just let everything out as freely as the impulse for it was felt and never suppressed a thing without making a huge dramatic deal about the fact they were suppressing something and blaming you for it...Irish way works better. Neither is perfect. No human is perfect, though. Maybe the Buddhists, Hindus, or Taoists among us have a better way?

[justdrew]

Williams is absolutely outrageous. Talk about support for terrorists. This cause and these neocon Russia hating crazies were completely out of control and remain only slightly limited in their ability to do damage today. Supporting such insane separatist causes is a recipe for endless pointless wars. The university should fire him and the rest of such "supports" need to be seriously sidelined.

I supposed Williams is a big proponent of AIM?

[DrEvil]

Williams sounds like he would be a perfect recruiter for the CIA.

[compared2what?]

The coroner, Dr. Henry M. Nields, says the suspect was run over by a car, that he was DOA, and that even the approximate time of death is unknown. He mentions no blast, explosion or shrapnel wounds. (Maybe "shot by police" means they fired a tank shell at him.)

It would be good to see the autopsy report.

Of course. That would be great. I'm sure you would make very productive use of all the time you spent questioning it . About the death certificate, though:

From page 24 of The Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting, (a full 138-page pdf copy of which the United States government has made available to people on the internet asking "Why?" at this link right here)

The medical examiner or coroner certifies that "On the basis of examination and/or investigation, in my opinion, death occurred at the time, date, and place, and due to the cause(s) and manner as stated.

The phrase "in my opinion" is included because it is recognized that in medical-legal cases, it is not always possible to make precise determinations of the date and the cause(s) of death. The date may be obscure in the case of bodies found some time after death occurred, and the relationship between the existing diseases or the sequence in which diseases or injuries occurred is not always clear
.
However except in unusual circumstances, the medical examiner or coroner is in a better position than any other individual to make a judgment as to which of the conditions led directly to death and to state the antecedent conditions, if any, that gave rise to this cause.

Space is provided for the time of death and for the date the decedent was pronounced dead. When the exact time of death is unknown, but there is sufficient basis for the medical examiner or coroner to render an opinion, the approximate time of death as estimated by the medical examiner or coroner will be given. This information should be entered as ‘‘APPROX—time.’’ Local time should be used, recording hours and minutes according to a 24-hour clock (for example, 0725).

Bearing in mind that this is an instruction manual, shorter version:

"Give your opinion on time, date, place, manner and cause of death Yeah, we know it's not always possible, but if it's possible for anyone, it's possible for the coroner or ME. So it's still your job. "Time" is estimated when there's a sufficient basis for you to render an opinion on the matter, like so, etc."

From which (with reference to the line I bolded above, I infer that when it says "Unknown," it means that there wasn't a sufficient basis for the coroner to render an approximate opinion. Which I assume means "a sufficient medical basis." Because what else would it mean?

There then follow ten examples of death certification (pp. 25 and onward, read them yourself, it's a pdf), four of which have unknown times of death (drowned and pulled from water two hours later; suicide; SIDS; suicide), from which I infer that it's not an uncommon finding for people who die from something for which they weren't receiving medical care, thus depriving the coroner of the medical documentation that goes along with it.

Also, fwiw, based on those ten examples, it looked to me like the things that they consider to be sufficient basis for approximating time of death are "when both the manner and the time of the cause of death are is known, so that a reasonable medical estimate can be made of how long it would have taken for death to occur in that way."

If that's the case, since there's no manner of death determination on Tamerlan Tsarnaev's certificate, there's no sufficient basis for estimating an approximate time, although time elapsed between cause and decease is recorded as "MINUTES."***

That seems non-shocking to me, inasmuch as I can see how it would be hard to determine the manner in which when someone who's been (potentially fatally) shot and then almost immediately (potentially fatally) run over died by performing an examination of his body some hours later after numerous attempts to resuscitate.

Because my best guess would be that a lot of systems probably fail at about the same time under those circumstances. But I'm not a doctor..Or a coroner. Or a medical examiner. I'm just working with what I gleaned from the foregoing.
____________

ON EDIT: Corrected a wrong word in the manual's title.

ON SECOND EDIT: I couldn't have been MORE WRONG about the manner-of-death stuff. Sorry. Should have looked it up first. Ought to be "natural, accidental, suicide, homicide, undetermined" when present, I believe. I've never queried a death certificate in detail before, though. So I don't know the ropes.

Doesn't seem odd to me that that's missing either, though.. If charges were brought, it would be changed to "homicide," but until then it's not one. And neither "accidental" or "undetermined" is accurate. So it's blank.

^^Again best guess, but with a little more confidence, due to a little more familiarity with how stuff with that kind of legal implication gets documented. But still pretty iffy, truth be told. .

[compared2what?]

c2w is exactly right re pretrial publicity and protecting the right to a fair trial meaning in part evidence is generally not paraded before the public until the trial. I think I tried to point that out 20, 30, 40 or more pages ago. but Mac is not listening much to anyone and engaging in endless troll like behavior. WTF? Frankly I've mostly ignored it, but thankfully everyone hasn't.

I've said it before, too. But just to be clear here, the point isn't that I'm right. Or that you're right. It's that there's literally an answer to the question "Why haven't we been shown all this evidence they say that they have?"

And it's:

Because the Supreme Court says that when District Attorneys show it to us via the media, the state is potentially violating the constitution..

My paraphrase. But that is basically what they say.

Sorry. I know I said I was out. But I think that was the main piece of yahoo-ism I wanted to clear up. Ignorance isn't strength.

[compared2what?]

What I would really like is not to have to write an 800-word exegesis of exactly in what ways a death certificate is an incredibly dull medical-legal document that coroners and medical examiners fill out by-the-book out of long-borne customs designed to touch all the medical-legal bases in the event that some fact on it will become relevant to an insurance claim -- or an inheritance dispute, or a malpractice case, or a tax battle, or any one of a number of other equally dull possibilities -- simply because one person (a) is holding the entire thread hostage by throwing tantrums because his demand for an answer to whatever burning question he's decided has some kind of relevance that he can't be bothered to explain hasn't been met; (b) doesn't care how well- or poorly merited his inquiries are; (c) isn't going to look into it himself; and (d) can't be stopped by anything except definitive information of some kind.

It's not an interesting question. Or answer. It says "Unknown" because the coroner couldn't estimate an approximate time of death to the medical-legal standard, whatever that is.

It's a drag. The price of speech should not be that high.

[hiddenite]

I'm in a different time zone so missed the above furore .

I think asking how Tamerlan died is a pertinent and interesting question. The press release and statement from Chief Deveau states he was walking towards them firing till he ran out of bullets , they tackled him to the ground and tried to handcuff him , then he was run over . Either the side gash was as a result of a medical proceedure or something else . Either he was shot after he was run over and handcuffed or he wasn't. Either way they did not appear to feel a need to capture him alive . Why was that ? Rage at the shooting of the MIT cop , or just got carried away , at what point did the assurances that there were no other plotters emerge, pretty soon I seem to remember . So they felt no desire to catch them alive and unravel the plot ? And Dzhokhar got away , was this because they were busy shooting a handcuffed run over man ?

But yet again I ask, presumably there has to be some kind of inquest and a more coherent narrative has to emerge to explain the death of Tamerlan?