The Libya thread

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby 8bitagent » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:47 pm

Man, Gadhafi is still at it with the al Qaeda stuff? LOL. Didnt Shayler before he went nuts talk about a secret deal in 1996 by MI6 to have al Qaeda forces stage bombings in Tripoli?
Some people speculate Lockerbie was done using Iranian sponsored terrorists, other says it was a setup by the CIA. Either way, the US cant claim Gadhafi "did it" and then be all chummy pals with him.

But yeah, al Qaeda. When are the PTB just going to be done with it and have bin Laden(dead or alive) come out of hiding? You have to think somewhere, they have a plan to have bin Laden appear finally. Maybe he'll have gotten plastic surgery, shaved and will be seen with Bansky doing some performance art masterpiece at Disneyland.

It's 2011, and "al Qaeda" seems to be the all too familiar go to "dog ate my homework" fallback for all leaders it seems. Iran and al Qaeda, if we are to believe it, constantly trade barbs back and forth and are "mortal enemies' according to the media
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Jeff » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:06 pm

I was grudgingly supportive of a no-fly resolution. But this isn't that.

Yes, we would kill Gaddafi: As RAF jets blitz Libya, Defence Secretary admits tyrant is a 'legitimate target'

Western forces blast building in Gaddafi residence compound

Even as Bahrainis massacred by Saudi tanks are recast as Shiite extremists who were asking for it by occupying the financial district:

Crackdown Was Only Option, Bahrain Sunnis Say
By ETHAN BRONNER
Published: March 20, 2011

MANAMA, Bahrain — When Bahrain’s pro-democracy movement began its demonstrations in Pearl Square last month, Atif Abdulmalik was supportive. An American-educated investment banker and a member of the Sunni Muslim elite, he favored a constitutional monarchy and increasing opportunities and support for the poorer Shiite majority.

But in the past week or two, the nature of the protest shifted — and so did any hope that demands for change would cross sectarian lines and unite Bahrainis in a cohesive democracy movement. The mainly Shiite demonstrators moved beyond Pearl Square, taking over areas leading to the financial and diplomatic districts of the capital. They closed off streets with makeshift roadblocks and shouted slogans calling for the death of the royal family.

“Twenty-five percent of Bahrain’s G.D.P. comes from banks,” Mr. Abdulmalik said as he sat in the soft Persian Gulf sunshine. “I sympathize with many of the demands of the demonstrators. But no country would allow the takeover of its financial district. The economic future of the country was at stake. What happened this week, as sad as it is, is good.”

To many around the world, the events of the past week — the arrival of 2,000 troops from Saudi Arabia and other neighbors, the declaration of martial law, the forceful clearing out of Pearl Square, the military takeover of the main hospital and then the spiteful tearing down of the Pearl monument itself — seem like the brutal work of a desperate autocracy.

But for Sunnis, who make up about a third of the country’s citizenry but hold the main levers of power, it was the only choice of a country facing a rising tide of chaos that imperiled its livelihood and future.

“How can we have a dialogue when they are threatening us?” Sheik Khalid bin Ahmed al-Khalifa, the foreign minister and a member of the royal family, asked Friday night at a news conference.

On Sunday, Bahrain was returning to a level of normality, with schools restarting, traffic returning and shops reopening. But many Shiites stayed home from work in protest of recent events, some checkpoints and curfews remained and a sense of political paralysis prevailed. No political dialogue seemed likely soon.

...

The takeover of Salmaniya Hospital by the military especially shocked the world. But Hala Mohammed is a Sunni doctor at the hospital and said that in recent weeks it had turned into a mini-Pearl Square with tents and radical posters.

“The doctors who supported the protesters were suddenly issuing decrees on behalf of the entire medical community,” she said. “They had politicized a medical institution. The government didn’t occupy it, it freed it and I am grateful.”

...

What also troubles Mr. Abdulmalik, the banker, is the way in which Bahrain has been grouped recently in discussions abroad with Libya and Yemen. The elite here think of their country as more like the Persian Gulf’s version of Singapore — a liberal, sophisticated place that is culturally far more open than its neighbors.

...


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/world ... ?src=twrhp
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:42 pm

Ancient Poison Bears New Fruit: Western Frenzy Grows in Libya

WRITTEN BY CHRIS FLOYD
MONDAY, 21 MARCH 2011 00:36
The American war against Libya grew in intensity on Sunday, raining death in all directions -- including on civilian vehicles and Libyan forces in full retreat. Behind the full-scale barrage launched by the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, the armed opposition led by recent henchmen of Moamar Gadafy pressed forward in a military offensive. Libyan soldiers were gunned down as they fled -- a reprise of the "turkey shoot" American forces conducted on retreating Iraqis back in the first glorious Gulf War.

(But weren't they supposed to retreat? Wasn't that the purpose of the UN directive? Oh, it's so confusing!)

Here's what happened today, following yesterday's hell-storm of 110 Tomahawk missiles:

American warplanes became more involved on Sunday, with B-2 stealth bombers, F-16 and F-15 fighter jets and Harrier attack jets flown by the Marine Corps striking at Libyan ground forces, air defenses and airfields, while Navy electronic warplanes, EA-18G Growlers, jammed Libyan radar and communications ...

Rebel forces ... began to regroup in the east as allied warplanes destroyed dozens of government armored vehicles near the rebel capital, Benghazi, leaving a field of burned wreckage along the coastal road to the city. By nightfall, the rebels had pressed almost 40 miles back west...

For miles leading south, the roadsides were littered with burned trucks and burned civilian cars. In some places battle tanks had simply been abandoned, intact, as their crews fled. ... To the south, though, many had been hit as they headed away from the city in a headlong dash for escape on the long road leading to a distant Tripoli.

In other words, the "no-fly zone" supposedly imposed to stop the fighting in Libya and secure the safety of its civilians morphed very quickly into what it was always intended to be: a military intervention on behalf of one side of a civil war, leading to more war -- and to many, many more civilian casualties.

Let us put it as plainly as possible: Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and Nicolas Sarkozy and the ludicrous upper-class twit called David Cameron do not give one good goddamn about the "security and freedom" of the Libyan people. They simply do not. They care about one thing only: imposing the domination of their monied, militarized elites.

Or as Alexis de Tocqueville put it following his tour of the society that Europeans had imposed -- with great savagery and deceit -- in America:

"The European is to other races of men what man in general is to animate nature. When he cannot bend them to his use or make them serve his self-interests, he destroys them and makes them vanish little by little before him."

It seems that the hapless Arab League -- whose call for a no-fly zone in Libya gave the perfect cover for the new Western war -- have belatedly recognized the truth of de Tocqueville's insight. They are now decrying the berserker frenzy of the Western forces; it was not what they had in mind at all:


The Arab League chief said on Sunday that Arabs did not want military strikes by Western powers that hit civilians when the League called for a no-fly zone over Libya.

In comments carried by Egypt's official state news agency, Secretary-General Amr Moussa also said he was calling for an emergency Arab League meeting to discuss the situation in the Arab world and particularly Libya.

"What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians," he said.

Support for Gadafy himself was virtually non-existent in the Arab world -- but unlike the spoon-fed, misinformed, incurious TV-gawkers back in the United States, the people of the region recognized full well the true nature and intentions of the onslaught:

The overthrow of Mubarak in Egypt and Tunisia's Zine al Abidine bin Ali -- as well as mass protests against leaders in Yemen and Bahrain -- have restored a dormant Arab pride which was crushed by decades of autocracy and foreign intervention.

But many people in the Arab world, while anxious to see the end of Gadhafi's rule, felt that the resort to Western military action has tarnished Libya's revolution.

"Who will accept that foreign countries attack an Arab country? This is something shameful," said Yemeni rights activist Bashir Othman.

Support for military action was also muted by deep-seated suspicions that the West is more concerned with securing access to Arab oil supplies than supporting Arab aspirations.

"They are hitting Libya because of the oil, not to protect the Libyans," said Ali al-Jassem, 53, in the village of Sitra in Bahrain, where protests by the Shi'ite Muslim majority against the Sunni ruling Al-Khalifa family have triggered military reinforcement by neighboring Gulf Arab forces.

A spokesman for Bahrain's largest Shi'ite opposition party Wefaq questioned why the West was intervening against Gadhafi while it allowed oil-producing allies to support a crackdown on protesters in Bahrain in which 11 people have been killed.

"We think what is happening in Bahrain is no different to what was happening in Libya," Ibrahim Mattar said. "Bahrain is very small so the deaths are significant for a country where Bahrainis are only 600,000."

Yet on the same day the Peace Laureate was drawing his first blood in Libya with his Zeus-like hurtling of a hundred and ten thunderbolts, his Secretary of State was publicly supporting the Saudi incursion into Bahrain, which enabled the murderous crackdown there. At the same time, American officials admitted that they did, in fact, know of the Saudi incursion in advance -- despite their heartsworn denials just a few days ago.

Again: Obama, Clinton, Sarkozy and Cameron do not give a damn about the killing of unarmed protestors in Bahrain -- any more than they give a damn about the killing of protestors, armed or unarmed, in Libya. It suits their current purposes to wage war in Libya, and so they wage war in Libya. It suits their current purposes to stand with one of the most oppressive and extremist regimes on earth to suppress, with deadly force, the yearning for democracy in Bahrain; so that's what they do.

The Peace Laureate and the bipartisan war-lovers in the American political and media elite tell us over and over that the assault on Libya is a "humanitarian intervention" aimed solely at "protecting the Libyan people." Yet at the same time, the ever-bellicose but often brutally frank Clinton states plainly, in public: "a final result of any negotiations would have to be the decision by Colonel Gadhafi to leave.”

How much plainer can it be? It is not a humanitarian intervention; it is a military operation to impose regime change -- which is, needless to say, patently illegal under the international laws which the US and the UN say they are upholding. But who cares about that?

The fact that anyone takes anything these compulsive, demonstrable liars say at face value, even for a micro-second, is one of the great mysteries of our age. Yet how many oceans of newsprint, how many blizzards of pixels have already been spent in earnest disquisitions on the serious import of their statements!

2.
Then again, there is nothing novel about this muderous absurdity, as Arthur Silber reminds us in his latest incendiary work of outrage and insight:

There isn't any "news" in these latest events. Another day, another set of war crimes. Where's the news in that? That's what the United States does now, as it has regularly and systematically for over a century. Wait, that's not right: as it has since before it even became the United States. But hell, you don't want to think about any of that too deeply or too long. If you did, how could you continue with your lamentations about the "death" of the once-noble United States and its "true" values? What are the "true" values of a nation founded and developed in very significant part on not one, but two, genocides that lasted for centuries?

Silber has much more to say; read it all -- and the links as well. (And give him any financial support you can while you are there; he continues to be one of the brightest, deepest lights we have, even as he battles excruciating -- and expensive -- health problems.)

You can also find more insight into the deep roots of our current predicament in a remarkable book by Paul VanDevelder: Savages and Scoundrels: The Untold Story of America's Road to Empire through Indian Territory. While the book is filled with little-known historical detail about the vast legacy of deceit and destruction in the forging of the American Empire, VanDevelder also looks deeper into history for the antecedents of the bloody actions we see across the world today. For example, he points out that "laws" used by our interventionists to justify their profitable carnage are secularized versions of the arbitrarily declared papal laws and edicts which lay behind --- what else? -- the Crusades.

VanDevelder outlines the thinking of the instigator of the Crusades, Pope Innocent III, who sought ways to "legitimize" the seizure of "the property and estate of pagans, savages and infidels" -- the land-grabbing and looting which were the essence of the Crusades. He found it in the amorphous idea of "natural law" -- whose precepts were, of course, determined by the divinely directed Church.

In his encyclical Quod super his, Innocent "had given his successors the tools with which to secure and enforce the papacy's authority over all secular powers, [Christian or pagan]. ... The pope was empowered by a universal right, one recognized in natural law, to enforce the union of Christian civilization with that of the infidel races..."

"Consequently," VanDevelder writes, "the pope not only had jurisdiction over the wandering infidels, he was also duty-bound to intervene in situations where those infidels were found to be in violation of natural and divine laws." And of course, failure to surrender to Christianity -- and its militarized elites -- was an egregious violation of "natural and divine law," punishable by death, decimation and destruction.

Building on this, Church doctine later declared that the pope had a duty to "deny that infidels had any valid legal right to own property and rule over their own lands." They could only do so on sufferance from the power that held "universal jurisdiction" over world affairs. Pope Eugenius IV "decreed that the pope could intervene in the internal affairs of foreign lands as the guardian of the wayward souls who lived there."

Reformation powers like Elizabthean England secularized these notions to justify their own conquests. As VanDevelder notes, both crown advocates and Protestant clergymen advanced the notion that "'the just quest by the sword' of savage pagans in foreign lands was the solemn duty of civilized people. ... Where the English were concerned, justifying the conquest of foreign lands was a simple matter of replacing hieratic authority with the secular crown. Lord Coke bundled all these arguments into one by telling King James I that his foremost responsibility as king was to subjugate the savages to civilized laws of natural justice and equity."

After the Revolution, the American elites adopted these by-now ancient -- and arbitrary -- principles of domination. They took on the mantle of "universal jurisdiction" -- i.e., the right to determine "the right way of life for mankind," as Innocent III had put it -- along with the solemn duty to impose civilization, by force if necessary, on all the wayward savages who lack it -- or even worse, refuse it. The end result, of course, was a relentless record of deceit (every single treaty signed with sovereign Indian nations in the course of the 18th and 19th centuries was broken), rapine and ethnic cleansing.

Today this militarized "universal jurisdiction" which sprang from the ambitions of the Crusader Pope has passed, nominally, to the United Nations (although as we have seen in recent years, our American elites still consider themselves to be the true possessors of this "right," and will eagerly use it unilaterally whenever the UN proves recalcitrant). Substitute "the will of the international community" for "Christianity" and so on, and you need hardly change a word from the historical documents reaching back centuries.

But from the horrendous atrocities of the First Crusade to the computerized carnage being wrought in Libya today, the noble rhetoric of freedom, enlightenment, protection and liberation has masked base self-interest, murderous racism, bottomless corruption, outrageous deceit and wanton destruction. As Silber notes, what we are seeing today is nothing new; it is just another deep, dirty, self-inflicted wound to the human spirit.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby 82_28 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:18 am

Upon coming home late from work. This is what we're going with now on the idiotic US channels for our morning taste of the day.

Target: Libya

No joke. What a scam up and down. Fucking idiot generals talking about shit, footage, idiot generals and feigned anchorperson concern.

Oooh. They just mentioned "mustard gas"!

The USA is running out of bluffs in this tiresome poker game of empire taking what it wants. They've dumbed the populace so down that only literate motherfuckers can see through this shit. We're in a whole new world.

Image

Image

Also Qudaffi (however the fuck you spell it in English) is "in on it".
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby wintler2 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:13 am

82_28, congrats on being only the second poster in 6 years to make my ignore list.

-edited for manners.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Canadian_watcher » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:35 am

8bitagent wrote:Man, Gadhafi is still at it with the al Qaeda stuff? ...

It's 2011, and "al Qaeda" seems to be the all too familiar go to "dog ate my homework" fallback for all leaders it seems. Iran and al Qaeda, if we are to believe it, constantly trade barbs back and forth and are "mortal enemies' according to the media


Unless he's just speaking their code language to tell them he knows what they're up to.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Sounder » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:36 am

Chris Floyd wrote...
The fact that anyone takes anything these compulsive, demonstrable liars say at face value, even for a micro-second, is one of the great mysteries of our age. Yet how many oceans of newsprint, how many blizzards of pixels have already been spent in earnest disquisitions on the serious import of their statements!

I imagine these folk to be earnestly doing the job they are bred to do, which is; creating narrative to flood the common folk with, always ready to switch narratives before the weaknesses of the first narrative is exposed.

Chris is wise to look at the antecedents to current activities by pointing to the nature of western exceptionalism as being significantly derived from the Church and its political machinations. This forms the basis (or at least a large segment) of our conceptual structures, under whose conditioning influences we all live. One obligation of activists is to identify flaws in this structure that if commonly understood, would tend to remove power from corrupt authority elements.

"Consequently," VanDevelder writes, "the pope not only had jurisdiction over the wandering infidels, he was also duty-bound to intervene in situations where those infidels were found to be in violation of natural and divine laws." And of course, failure to surrender to Christianity -- and its militarized elites -- was an egregious violation of "natural and divine law," punishable by death, decimation and destruction.

Building on this, Church doctine later declared that the pope had a duty to "deny that infidels had any valid legal right to own property and rule over their own lands." They could only do so on sufferance from the power that held "universal jurisdiction" over world affairs. Pope Eugenius IV "decreed that the pope could intervene in the internal affairs of foreign lands as the guardian of the wayward souls who lived there."

Ah yes, do what I say so that you may have ‘salvation’. This syndrome likely reflects an internal insecurity that is mollified through insistent imposition of rigid ‘requirements’ upon the external world. These worshipers of the static principle (Ahriman) have become little more than parasites sucking off the fruits of creation.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:14 am

"Arrogance is experiential and environmental in cause. Human experience can make and unmake arrogance. Ours is about to get unmade."

~ Joe Bageant R.I.P.

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby 23 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:09 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10751128
BP set to begin oil drilling off Libya
Oil giant BP has confirmed it will begin drilling off the Libyan coast in the next few weeks.

The deepwater drilling will take place in the Gulf of Sirte following a deal signed in 2007 with Libya on oil and gas development.

The news comes amid major concerns over BP's environmental and safety record following the Gulf of Mexico spill.

It also follows claims, denied by BP, that it lobbied for Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi's release.

The Libyan was convicted of blowing up a Pan Am jumbo jet over the Scottish town in 1988, killing 270 people, but was freed by the Scottish government on medical grounds last August.
Lessons

When the deal with Libya's National Oil Company was announced in 2007 BP set a minimum initial exploration commitment of $900m.

Chief executive Tony Hayward at the time hailed it as "BP's single biggest exploration commitment" and "a welcome return to the country for BP after more than 30 years".

BP spokesman David Nicholas told AFP news agency on Saturday: "We expect to begin the first well in the next few weeks", adding that the wells "can take six months or more to drill".
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

There is no evidence that corroborates in any way the allegation of BP's involvement in the Scottish Executive's entirely separate decision to release [Megrahi] on compassionate grounds”

The Libyan well is deeper than the well that ruptured under the Deepwater Horizon rig in the Gulf of Mexico. Deepwater Horizon blew up on 20 April, killing 11 workers.

Mr Nicholas said: "If there are any lessons obviously that come out of the investigation into what happened on the Deepwater Horizon, we will apply those to our drillings across the world."

BBC business correspondent Joe Lynam says that although the Libyan deal was signed three years ago the timing of the drilling is not ideal for BP, given the Gulf of Mexico spill and the forthcoming US Senate hearing on the release of Megrahi.

In a letter to Senator John Kerry, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said the decision to release Megrahi was "wrong and misguided".

However he said it was a "legally and constitutionally proper" decision by the Scottish government.

Although BP did have discussions with then foreign secretary on the matter, Mr Hague said this was a "perfectly normal and legitimate practice" for a British company.

"There is no evidence that corroborates in any way the allegation of BP's involvement in the Scottish Executive's entirely separate decision to release him on compassionate grounds," Mr Hague wrote.

Mr Hayward has been asked to attend the hearing and is said to be considering the invitation.

However, Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill has again refused to attend the hearing. He said the only material not in the public domain was correspondence between the UK and US governments which the US had not given permission to publish.

Former UK Justice Secretary Jack Straw has also declined an invitation.

A US senator, Frank Lautenberg, said he had pleaded with Scottish ministers to attend to help shed light on the claims BP had influenced the release.

Meanwhile, ships involved in the effort to secure the blown-out Gulf oil well are preparing to resume work after Tropical Storm Bonnie weakened.

The storm had forced workers to prepare for an evacuation but Bonnie has now diminished.

A driller that was detached is now returning to the site to resume work on drilling a relief well to permanently seal the rupture.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:16 pm

23 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10751128
BP set to begin oil drilling off Libya
Oil giant BP has confirmed it will begin drilling off the Libyan coast in the next few weeks.

The deepwater drilling will take place in the Gulf of Sirte following a deal signed in 2007 with Libya on oil and gas development.

The news comes amid major concerns over BP's environmental and safety record following the Gulf of Mexico spill.

It also follows claims, denied by BP, that it lobbied for Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi's release.

The Libyan was convicted of blowing up a Pan Am jumbo jet over the Scottish town in 1988, killing 270 people, but was freed by the Scottish government on medical grounds last August.
Lessons

When the deal with Libya's National Oil Company was announced in 2007 BP set a minimum initial exploration commitment of $900m.

Chief executive Tony Hayward at the time hailed it as "BP's single biggest exploration commitment" and "a welcome return to the country for BP after more than 30 years".

BP spokesman David Nicholas told AFP news agency on Saturday: "We expect to begin the first well in the next few weeks", adding that the wells "can take six months or more to drill".
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

There is no evidence that corroborates in any way the allegation of BP's involvement in the Scottish Executive's entirely separate decision to release [Megrahi] on compassionate grounds”

The Libyan well is deeper than the well that ruptured under the Deepwater Horizon rig in the Gulf of Mexico. Deepwater Horizon blew up on 20 April, killing 11 workers.

Mr Nicholas said: "If there are any lessons obviously that come out of the investigation into what happened on the Deepwater Horizon, we will apply those to our drillings across the world."

BBC business correspondent Joe Lynam says that although the Libyan deal was signed three years ago the timing of the drilling is not ideal for BP, given the Gulf of Mexico spill and the forthcoming US Senate hearing on the release of Megrahi.

In a letter to Senator John Kerry, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said the decision to release Megrahi was "wrong and misguided".

However he said it was a "legally and constitutionally proper" decision by the Scottish government.

Although BP did have discussions with then foreign secretary on the matter, Mr Hague said this was a "perfectly normal and legitimate practice" for a British company.

"There is no evidence that corroborates in any way the allegation of BP's involvement in the Scottish Executive's entirely separate decision to release him on compassionate grounds," Mr Hague wrote.

Mr Hayward has been asked to attend the hearing and is said to be considering the invitation.

However, Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill has again refused to attend the hearing. He said the only material not in the public domain was correspondence between the UK and US governments which the US had not given permission to publish.

Former UK Justice Secretary Jack Straw has also declined an invitation.

A US senator, Frank Lautenberg, said he had pleaded with Scottish ministers to attend to help shed light on the claims BP had influenced the release.

Meanwhile, ships involved in the effort to secure the blown-out Gulf oil well are preparing to resume work after Tropical Storm Bonnie weakened.

The storm had forced workers to prepare for an evacuation but Bonnie has now diminished.

A driller that was detached is now returning to the site to resume work on drilling a relief well to permanently seal the rupture.


Awesome. The slow death via "accidental environmental catastrophe" phase of the "no fly zone" is about to begin.

Buy stock in Corexit, peeps!
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby American Dream » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:39 pm

A Humanitarian Intervention?

March 21, 2011

By Richard Seymour
Source: New Left Project



Richard Seymour writes the blog Lenin’s Tomb and is the author of The Liberal Defence of Murder and The Meaning of David Cameron. Following the onset of military intervention in Libya, he spoke to NLP’s Edward Lewis about the motives underlying the operation and whether or not it can be justified.


The professed rationale for the intervention in Libya is of course a humanitarian one, as is to be expected given the way Western powers (if not all states) portray themselves. The work of writers such as Noam Chomsky, Mark Curtis, yourself and a host of others has, however, shown that Western foreign policy tends to have as its primary concern the power and privilege of domestic elites. What, then, is the real motive of those backing the intervention in Libya? What, fundamentally, do you think they are seeking to achieve?

I think there are various motives. One is to re-establish the credibility of the US and its allies by appearing to side with an endangered population and thus partially expunge the ‘Iraq syndrome’ as well as efface decades of arming and financing dictatorships to keep the local populations under thumb and permanently endangered. But a more fundamental motive can be inferred from the context: the region is experiencing a revolutionary tumult, and the revolution in Libya is no less genuine than those in Tunisia and Egypt (and the uprisings in Bahrain and Yemen). The thrust of this revolution is not just anti-dictatorship, it’s also anti-imperialist, against the IMF and alliances with Israel. So I would hypothesise that the US and its allies have been desperate to find a way to halt this revolutionary process somehow and, where they can’t do that, shape it in a direction more favourable to continued American hegemony in the region. The former regime elements in the leadership of the Libyan rebellion have been more open to an alliance with the US than other revolutionary movements partly because of the particular history and nature of the Qadhafi regime, whose legitimacy continued to rely somewhat on his past standing as a regional opponent of imperialism. This has given the US and EU a unique opportunity to stamp their authority in the process, even if they can’t control it.

That said, it’s a gamble on the part of the US: there’s no guarantee they can control this revolt, and the political forces, particularly in the east of Libya, are not favourable to imperialism. There’s an assumption that because the transitional council has called for a no-fly zone, that must be a demand shared throughout the revolutionary movement. I’m not so sure. The transitional council has little real authority over the movements it is trying to represent. They have more or less admitted that while in theory local revolutionary councils are supposed to send delegates, this has not really happened. The revolution is not a centralised univocal movement, and the transitional council is not the Viet Minh. It is ideologically disparate, organisationally disarticulated, and spatially dispersed. So, while the revolutionaries will undoubtedly try to take advantage of any possible breathing space and turn this intervention to their advantage, there are millions of people whose views have not been canvassed in this campaign and could thus turn against it very quickly if it doesn’t go well. Perhaps the best outcome the US and EU can achieve from their perspective is a de facto partition, between a ‘pro-Western’ east and a rump dictatorship in the west of Libya. The UN resolution seeks a negotiated outcome to the conflict based on bolstering the position of the insurgency to produce a stalemate. Given that Qadhafi would be unlikely to cede power in that circumstance, partition looks like a very plausible outcome. And that would be very bad for Libya, given the regional and ‘tribal’ divisions, partially rooted in the colonial history of Cyrenaica, which Qadhafi has deliberately exacerbated with his policy of underdeveloping the east. It could lead to a degeneration of the revolution and a civil war. Divide and rule is not exactly an unfamiliar strategy in the annals of imperialism.

Some will argue that even if the belligerent states have nefarious motives, if it leads to the downfall of Gaddafi or the saving of life then it is justified - these kinds of outcomes being more important than whatever motives may lead to them. What do you make of such arguments?

I think you have to take such arguments seriously, but their proponents all too often do not. Taking them seriously means trying to judge whether or not the nature of the powers supposedly bringing about this deliverance will affect how they behave, and thus the outcome. We’re being asked to bet on the idea that either the interests of the imperialist states will coincide with those of the revolution - which, given their counter-revolutionary posture in the region is vanishingly unlikely - or that they will, quite unintentionally, produce a genuinely free Libya. What if they don’t do that? What if, as I’ve suggested, the coalition of states involved in the bombing actually works to prevent a revolutionary victory by creating a stalemate? What if the air war escalates and creates massacres? There can be all sorts of restrictions applied, ‘rules of engagement’, but these are subordinate to the military logic, and tend to be ‘relaxed’ when things don’t go according to plan. Recall that weeks into the war on Yugoslavia in 1999, also fought ostensibly on a humanitarian pretext, the US started to expand the bombing into a war on the civilian infrastructure, including a notorious massacre in a television station. And that was a short, relatively low-intensity war. In the parts of Libya that Qadhafi controls, there are millions of people who would potentially suffer if such a tactic was deployed, and bitterly oppose the intervention. And this relates to the question of civil war again - if these civilians blame the revolutionary leadership for visiting this upon them, they may become willing executioners of the counter-revolution.

These are fairly huge risks that we’re being asked to take with the lives and well-being of Libyans by endorsing military intervention by the imperialist states, and they’re plausible enough to demand a serious accounting in the war stakes. But I haven’t seen anyone who favours intervention conduct such an audit seriously.

Is there an alternative approach that states outside of Libya could realistically have taken, or be taking, that would be better?

States in the region were already intervening in various ways. Egypt has been supplying weapons and training soldiers for some weeks. The regime in Egypt is still a military one and a capitalist one, and it will pursue its own interests. But it isn’t an imperialist state, and its efforts may involve trying to position Egypt as a leading power in a new regional configuration of forces that are more independent of Washington. But I don’t think we should invest our hopes in that, as the Egyptian military leadership hasn’t yet broken with its backers, and I tend to think we should avoid state-centric answers. Just because states tend to have all the guns doesn’t mean they provide a clean short-cut to a revolutionary outcome. I think we should look to the revolutionary forces in the Middle East. Volunteers from surrounding states have already been joining the Libyan revolution (eg:http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/7689.aspx), and people have made comparisons to the Spanish civil war. That’s a model of solidarity and ‘interventionism’ that has a proud history on the Left.

One way we could help in this would be to build practically relevant solidarity movements with the revolutions, all of them, raising money and political support. We could pressure our governments to release Qadhafi’s frozen funds to the revolution, to let them purchase whatever weapons they need. But we should not allow them to try and determine the nature and pace of this revolution, which is for the people of the region to decide, which is why we really have to argue against any reliance on the false ‘aid’ and promises of the ‘West’.



From: Z Net - The Spirit Of Resistance Lives
URL: http://www.zcommunications.org/a-humani ... rd-seymour
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby ninakat » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:08 pm

Dare to dream... or something... oh, what was I thinking... dare to hope (you know, the real hope, before it got trademarked). I guess Obama needs to take Dennis on another ride on Air Force One, like he did with the health care fiasco, right? (Note to Dennis: bring a parachute, just in case the "arm twisting" doesn't work.)

Kucinich: Obama could be impeached for attacking Libya
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/21/k ... ing-libya/
By David Edwards
Monday, March 21st, 2011 -- 10:34 am

Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) says President Barack Obama did not have the constitutional authority to order U.S. forces to participate in an attack on Libya.

In a conference call with other liberal lawmakers Saturday, Kucinich asked why the U.S. missile strikes were not impeachable offenses, according to two Democratic lawmakers who spoke to Politico.

. . .

Reps. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), Donna Edwards (D-MD), Mike Capuano (D-MA), Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Maxine Waters (D-CA), Rob Andrews (D-NJ), Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX), Barbara Lee (D-CA) and Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-DC) "all strongly raised objections to the constitutionality of the president's actions" during the conference call, a source told Politico.

Kucinich also released a statement on his website Friday questioning the constitutionality of the president's actions.

. . .

Former presidential candidate Ralph Nader also said the president was committing "war crimes" in the attack against Libya.

"Why don't we say what's on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached," Nader told Democracy Now! Thursday.

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby American Dream » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:15 pm

The Libyan Quagmire

Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (or…so many wars, so little time)

March 21, 2011

By Rob Prince



“Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man’ll be over his head, we’re
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!”


Song written and performed by Pete Seeger about another Big Muddy…

___________________

Humanitarian (?) Interventionalism in Libya

Image
Sarkozy to Khadaffi: Well, I'm going to have to start my re-election campaign by bombing you, you know, play the old human rights card, but don't take it personally

So now add Libya to the Middle Eastern/South Asian countries where the United States is up to its waist militarily. The mainstream media calls this the third, U.S. military intervention in the region, with Iraq (2003) and Afghanistan (2001, 2009) being the other two. But it leaves out the growing U.S. military presence and `not-so-secret’ war in Yemen and the deepening U.S. led intervention in Somalia, bringing the total to at least five.

Nor does it count the recent intensification of security cooperation with Algeria inaugurated in Algiers on March 3-4 with the presence of Daniel Benjamin, Coordinator for Counter Terrorism for the State Department. That agreement covers territory over a swatch from Algeria to Nigeria, two of the continents most prolific oil and gas producers. Then there’s Pakistan which we’re doing a good job blowing apart, not exactly in the Middle East, but no need to be stingy in our definition. Take your pick – 3, 5 or something approaching 10 countries?

So…waist deep in the Big Muddy?

And now Libya. And we’ve only just begun.

About ten days ago, despite the denials of many of the parties now involved, signs of a possible major Western (read – U.S. directed British, French, Italian, Spanish intervention…and now we can throw in the Norwegians and Danes for good measure)…were already surfacing.

What were the clues…

Major movements of the U.S., British and French navies positioning themselves in the Eastern Mediterranean. Intensive use of U.S. surveillance planes – AWACs – in and near Libyan air space added to the picture. Given the nature of the media reports which focused on the very real human rights abuses of Khadaffi, public opinion in the U.S. and Western Europe in particular for intervention on behalf of the rebels intensified. It looked like a bit more than war games.

Splits in the Obama Administration over taking military action against Khadaffi. Secretary of Defense Gates seemed against as did important spokespeople for the U.S. military who were openly opposed to setting up a no-fly zone over Libya; but Hillary Clinton and Senator John Kerry were leaning for `stronger’ action and lining up with our more classic neo-con war-mongers: John Bolton, Senator Joseph Lieberman, and from his post-Bush perch at the American Enterprise Institute, Paul Wolfowitz. Lurking somewhere in the background – they’re never far from the political action – AIPAC.

The Fukushima nuclear accident probably played a role too. It put nuclear energy world-wide back on the hot seat, including in Europe. This is particularly troubling for European countries hoping to lessen their dependence on Middle East oil. With nuclear energy once again under attack `from below’, European plans to develop the stuff are, at least, on hold. In the absence of alternative energy development, reliance on Middle East oil came back into focus. At the same time that European countries were taking stock of their energy future, Khadaffi, miffed at the way his European colleagues had turned on him, announced that he intended to cut contracts with major European oil players (Total, BP, Statoil of Norway among them) and turn instead towards providing oil and natural gas to the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China). It was about this time that the French and British positions towards Khadaffi hardened. French president Sarkozy, who supported both Tunisia’s Ben Ali and Egypt’s Mubarak before their fall from grace, suddenly discovered the Libyan human rights fiasco, the little hypocrite.

The situation for the Libyan rebels on the ground seriously deteriorated. This is no surprise as, although they have justice on their side, the Libyan rebels are politically disorganized, poorly trained and with few big guns and sophisticated military equipment, and are up against a well trained military with air coverage and some of the world’s most modern weaponry. Nor do they have a coherent (or uncoherent) political vision beyond dumping Khadaffi. The rebels overextended themselves terribly by trying to march on Tripoli, were easily repulsed and then the Khadaffi juggernaut struck back with a vengeance. There is little doubt that without foreign intervention, Khadaffi’s forces would have won the day militarily, that the bloodbath which has already taken between 10,000-12,000 Libyan lives would have continued and would have been merciless without foreign intervention.

If there were going to be military action it would have to come from the Europeans and the United States. Despite an Arab League condemnation of Khadaffi’s murderous campaign, it was becoming clearer early on that none of the Middle Eastern countries with military potential – the Turks, Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan [to say nothing about Israel] were willing to engage Khadaffi militarily for different reasons. (Although in the last days there have been indications that Turkey will join the coalition forces). I mention this because, had the military strike force been one commissioned by the Arab League with mostly Arab participants, the chemistry of what is being played out militarily and politically right now would be very different. But this did not happen

Image
Tony Blair and Muammar Khadaffi

Instead, the chemistry of this intervention is in some ways different from the U.S. led invasion of Iraq in in1991 or 2003. The U.N mandate secured from the Security Council is sufficiently broad to include extensive and open ended military operations.

Although the denials are coming fast and furious, the goal is nothing short of `regime change’, eliminating Khadaffi and his sons from power. But there is a different `division of labor among the main players. While, at least for the moment, it is the U.S. military running the show, France and the UK, the two former major imperial powers in the Middle East before the U.S. took over the role post World War II, are in the lead militarily. The Obama Administration is insisting (a little too much) that it will not play a key role. Not credible. Arab military participation (significant and broad in the 1991 and 2003 invasions of Iraq) is, as mentioned above, scant for the moment.

Obama’s Dilemma:

Barack Obama was caught in a dilemma.

From the outset, it must be said that there is no overarching U. S. Middle East policy for the moment. Instead it has become more and more improvised; it lurches from one crisis to another, from one position to another, dealing with each situation as it bursts forth on the scene acting like it knows what it is doing when in fact, there is general confusion at the highest levels.

The neo-cons, whose while out of office still exert considerable influence have a consistent – if not particularly intelligent – answer to each crisis – intervene militarily, protect the old demented and authoritarian – but reliable – U.S. allies. The more liberal elements support a `more selected’ military intervention, but can’t quite come to consensus even within their own ranks – as was the case with Egypt – when intervention is appropriate

Until Secretary of Defense Robert Gates’ surprised and hurried visit to Bahrain last week, Obama could argue that despite inconsistencies, an American president had actually for once `taken the side of history’ in support of the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions, at least in so far as these did away with Zine Ben Ali and Hosni Mubarak’s grip on power.

But in both Bahrain and Yemen, events have taken a more somber turn. For the United States, the limits of `Middle Eastern glasnost’ had been reached. The U.S. dilemma can be summed up rather neatly: Obama Administration rhetoric in support of democracy has come into conflict with U.S. strategic interests in the Middle East, much if not most of which centers around oil and natural gas production. Gates’ position, articulated by Andrew Bacevich, Wesley Clark and a number of other strategic thinkers is that the U.S. should be involved militarily (from now one) only where strategic interests are threatened.

It’s one thing to support the democratic renaissance in strategically irrelevant (much as I love the place) Tunisia, or even in Egypt where the military made promises that traffic through the Suez Canal would not be interrupted, and a horse of a different color to support those same processes as they get closer and closer to the oil producing Persian Gulf heartland. Not entirely clear how Libya, which is far more strategic for Europe than for the U.S. fits into the picture. Still,

Almost immediately after Gates left Bahrain, the government of King Hamid bin Isa al Khalifa open fired on the country’s human rights’ demonstrators and 1500 Saudi troops entered the island nation to prop up the government.

In Yemen, where U.S. Special Forces have been increasingly involved in recent years, almost simultaneously with the Bahraini events, security forces open fired on demonstrators calling for the removal of President Ali Abdullah Saleh, in power for more than 30 years. Many casualties have been reported

And now Libya.

Image
Breaking Up Is Not So Hard To Do...

To a certain extent, Obama again, was on the `right side of history’. His criticisms of Khadaffi ring true and Khadaffi’s attempts to play the old anti-colonial, anti-imperialist card fell flat (at least until the military intervention started). By not intervening militarily, Obama gave the impression of supporting Khadaffi. Countering that impression was one element in Obama’s decision to engage militarily. But the military intervention which started yesterday bodes ill for the region and ultimately for the United States in the Middle East.

We will learn later what deal was cut between the British, French and the U.S. concerning the divvying up of Libyan oil and gas resources. Only the most naïve or ideologically driven would eliminate the oil factor as being one of the driving forces behind this intervention which uses the humanitarian crisis as a pretext for war. Support for the rebels comes with conditions. Again, not denying the justice of their cause, they are a politically weak and therefore easily manipulated force, a convenient front for the implementation of British, French and ultimately U.S. energy plans for Libya.

Where will it end? Too soon to tell.

A few weeks ago, before Khadaffi’s counter offensive through the rebel forces into turmoil, I hypothesized to a class at the University of Denver that partition should not be ruled out as a possible outcome. A comparison was made between U.S. support of the Kurds in Northern Iraq with support for the Libyan rebels whose remaining bastion is Bengazi. Partitioned states are weak states, and weak states have a difficult time resisting oil company pressures, especially when they are accompanied by military occupation, F-16s etc. Exactly the same scenario as Iraq? Not likely…but perhaps in the long run, when it comes to the `end game’… the similarities will outweigh the differences..

http://robertjprince.wordpress.com/2011 ... big-muddy/

Thanks to Phil Woods, Ibrahim Kazerooni, Hasan Ayoub for fruitful insights, discussion.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:20 pm

ninakat wrote:Dare to dream... or something... oh, what was I thinking... dare to hope (you know, the real hope, before it got trademarked). I guess Obama needs to take Dennis on another ride on Air Force One, like he did with the health care fiasco, right? (Note to Dennis: bring a parachute, just in case the "arm twisting" doesn't work.)

Kucinich: Obama could be impeached for attacking Libya
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/21/k ... ing-libya/
By David Edwards
Monday, March 21st, 2011 -- 10:34 am

Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) says President Barack Obama did not have the constitutional authority to order U.S. forces to participate in an attack on Libya.

In a conference call with other liberal lawmakers Saturday, Kucinich asked why the U.S. missile strikes were not impeachable offenses, according to two Democratic lawmakers who spoke to Politico.

. . .

Reps. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), Donna Edwards (D-MD), Mike Capuano (D-MA), Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Maxine Waters (D-CA), Rob Andrews (D-NJ), Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX), Barbara Lee (D-CA) and Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-DC) "all strongly raised objections to the constitutionality of the president's actions" during the conference call, a source told Politico.

Kucinich also released a statement on his website Friday questioning the constitutionality of the president's actions.

. . .

Former presidential candidate Ralph Nader also said the president was committing "war crimes" in the attack against Libya.

"Why don't we say what's on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached," Nader told Democracy Now! Thursday.



Sure, but Nader can't be taken seriously. Otherwise, the major networks would have allowed him to take part in their Presidential debates back when he was campaigning to ruin America by stealing votes from Gore and handing the election over to Bush™.
"Arrogance is experiential and environmental in cause. Human experience can make and unmake arrogance. Ours is about to get unmade."

~ Joe Bageant R.I.P.

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:12 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
Make no mistake, today we are part of a broad coalition


a. intentional?

b. accidental because of the day?

c. in your face?

We all remember the hour when the attack on Iraq was called Operation Iraqi Liberation (O.I.L.), which no one can argue credibly was anything other than C, a big fuck-you to war opponents. Does "Odyssey Dawn" (OD) anagram into the equivalent of Ha, Ha I'm Bush What You Gonna Do About It? Hmmm...

http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cg ... t=1000&a=n

Days' Ends - Yow!

.


I've been in the "What constitutes misogyny?" thread too long
I read the headline
'Make no mistake, today we are part of a broad coalition'
in a Nu Joisey accent and thought "That's a bit sexist,isnt it?"

On the Channel 4 news this evening there was a real element of farce in the communication within NATO - with the Yanks saying they are not going after him and then bombing his compound and us Brits saying we can legally take him out but then returning fighter bombers to base mid sortie. The US Generic General had a deeply disturbing aura of Marshall Applegate from the Heavens Gate cult and The Soopah Sekrit Illuminati, Robert Gates the SkullRenderer appeared positively gnomeish and wanted us to know he 'wasnt interested in regime change'.
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