Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmon

[Iamwhomiam]

Maybe someone could help me to better understand Atzman, because I'm confused.

To me he seems to be coming from the far right under the guise of being far-left.

So, while all the history has been interesting, it really hasn't helped me to understand where exactly Atzmon's coming from. Have I totally misread this man? Is he actually a leftist or is he simply trying to raise the ire of Israelis into action with his provocative and vile rhetoric?

[Joe Hillshoist]

Maybe someone could help me to better understand Atzman, because I'm confused.

To me he seems to be coming from the far right under the guise of being far-left.

So, while all the history has been interesting, it really hasn't helped me to understand where exactly Atzmon's coming from. Have I totally misread this man? Is he actually a leftist or is he simply trying to raise the ire of Israelis into action with his provocative and vile rhetoric?

He' s a painfully average muso whose career would have disappeared up its own backside if he hadn't generated some controversy to shore up his fan base.

[AlicetheKurious]

C2W, I just spent a lot of time and energy refuting your historical post of a couple of pages ago; then my computer froze up and crashed. I'm very frustrated, because it was good. Trust me.

But it's 1:00am now, and my eyes are stinging, so I'll just answer your recent questions:

Please try to grasp that the kid in that video is not any more representative of "Israeli" or "zionist" or "Jewish" culture than his Wahhabist equivalent (or, ftm, his equivalent in the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas/Hezbollah, or, ftm, his equivalent in the White Aryan Movement, et cetera, et cetera [/b]) is of "Arabian"/"Egyptian"/"Islamic"/"American"/"Christian" culture.

Of course he is. He's not the face that zionism shows to West audiences, and he's not the face that people in Tel Aviv see, but his, along with that of the brutal, sadistic, murdering soldier, are definitely what zionism looks like to the Palestinians under occupation. How do you think the zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine? By sending them flowers, or by rationally persuading to leave their homes for squalid refugee camps? In fact, morally speaking, his is the only relevant face of zionism, its very embodiment, in practise as opposed to in theory.

As for the Wahhabists, those who massacred the people of the Nejd and Hejaz and the rest of Arabia, who destroyed its cultural, religious and ethnic diversity and transformed the whole region into the fiefdom of one family showed the same face to their victims.

Hamas, Hizbullah and the Muslim Brotherhood have nothing in common with the White Aryan Movement, which is pretty much zionism for white christians; in fact, I'm amazed you can even mention them in the same sentence. That's just crazy.

I've never understood how you can root for Hamas and root against the Muslim Brotherhood, btw. How is that not asking the Palestinians to live under terms you think of as too oppressive for Egyptians?

I "root" for democracy and human dignity and freedom, and for people's right to freely elect their own representatives. The candidates from Hamas had legitimately won the Palestinian people's respect and trust, while the alternative candidates, from Fateh, had compiled a long, dirty record of collaboration with the occupiers in exchange for personal gain. As a result, the Palestinian people democratically elected the candidates of their choice. But the hypocrites in the West and in Israel, who bray about 'democracy', decided to demonstrate their commitment to freedom and human rights by killing and arresting and torturing members of the new government, and deliberately starving 1.5 million trapped, helpless civilians before bombing them with white phosphorous and missiles and destroying their electricity plant and sewage facilities. How sick is that?

I had no real problem with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, especially some individual politicians, when they spoke out bravely on behalf of the poor and oppressed in Egypt and especially when they suffered from Mubarak's regime for it. I only really developed an antipathy for them after they sold out the revolution by cutting secret deals with the US and Egypt's military regime, and then reaped the reward by "winning" in outrageously fraudulent elections.

[Simulist]

Maybe someone could help me to better understand Atzman, because I'm confused.

To me he seems to be coming from the far right under the guise of being far-left.

So, while all the history has been interesting, it really hasn't helped me to understand where exactly Atzmon's coming from. Have I totally misread this man? Is he actually a leftist or is he simply trying to raise the ire of Israelis into action with his provocative and vile rhetoric?

Hi Iamwhomiam. Atzmon as provocateur seems increasingly likely to me the more I read this discussion.

Many of his words are so indefensible they serve only to diminish anyone who might choose (to try) to defend them.

[Iamwhomiam]

Thanks, Joe, but that really doesn't help me very much.

Congratulations on the birth of your child. I wish you all Blessings, Peace and Love.

[Ben D]

Last thing, the waters get very murky if we consider that the perps, period, are not defined by nationality nor ethnicity, but come from any and all, the common denominator being evil genius.

Actually, I think that might well be the clearer point in your speculations. The common denominator in any time is a ruling class that wishes to enslave everyone for their own greedy interests to the exclusion of any rivals with the same desire and quite naturally having the resources and power to do so would attempt to sow division among their slaves so as to keep them at each other's throats and not their's and also would seek to own and control the major sources and outlets of information in whatever form that existed in any particular age.

Seems we have agreement...sadly it is an unhappy situation about which this agreement concerns.

Reminds me of the saying,...the first thing a deceiver does after deceiving is to warn the deceived against all other potential deceivers so as to avoid losing control of the deceived to some other deceiver...

But hey, let's not spoil the moment by immediately ringing warning bells about an entity who you see as another potential deceiver or a mere aspect of the ubiquitous deception of the granddaddy of all deceivers, the embryonic one world government.

[compared2what?]

Sounder --

What do you understand him to mean by "No more Jewish state in Occupied Palestine" that makes it distinct from (and/or better than) what opponents of the Israeli occupation of Palestine like Noam Chomsky and Amy Goodman say?

I do not know what Noam or Amy say about Israeli occupation but I do not consider that what people say always matches what people really believe and would therefore actually be working toward.

I agree with you on that last point. Also, I swear to you that I was not implying anything about you. I adore you for being you. My second post was purely and exclusively an observation about/characterization of what Atzmon wrote, as I understand it. Which -- obviously -- might reflect poorly on him and/or me and/or both.

But it doesn't say anything at all about you.

This may be some ‘diatribe’ to you, as I seem to not be able to control that, however I would be more interested in a response to the assertion that there was and can never be sanction for Israel to steal and continue to kill and steal the ancestral land of Palestinians.

I completely agree with it, and would not characterize it as a "diatribe."

And if anyone does want sanction, they can’t get it until after the arrival of the Messiah anyway. I mean if that is the way you want to roll.

Wait. What?

When have I ever said or suggested that I was waiting for the arrival of the Messiah in connection with anything?

Also, can we add the little diatribe posted by Sounder to the evidence introduced in support of Atzmon's extreme right-wing tendencies, which he frequently expresses the good old-fashioned way by indiscrimately tarring and feathering a bunch of leftists (and, especially, Jewish leftists) just for existing?

I do try to leave ideology out of it C2W? When reading all kinds of material it is necessary to identify both useful and spurious or non-useful elements in the work.

I agree, wrt the second point. WRT the first, I just try to understand what people are saying and writing, basically. Atzmon expresses his views almost exclusively in terms coined and used by fascists, nazis, white supremacists and other very extreme and reactionary right-wing groups. And that's as consistently true for the content of what he writes as it is for the structure of what he writes as it is for the buzzwords and vocabulary he employs when writing it.

If he only did that once (or, ftm, even every now and again within limited parameters), I might or might think it was significant. But that's purely a hypothetical question in this instance. Because he always does it, unfailingly. Only nazis, fascists and white supremacists always and unfailingly use the terminology of very extreme and reactionary right-wing propaganda when talking about Jews. For the obvious reasons.

So. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them, not me. I just live here.

You may well be right about some of the holes in Gilad's psyche, but he is the one on the receiving end of death threats.

I don't know anything about his psyche. He's advocating for the mass extinction of Jews on "racial" grounds in the same customary and long-familiar coded terms that everybody who seeks that end has always used. Because -- obviously -- you can't ever really do that kind of thing openly. Too many people would object.

That reflects on him, not on you. BTW.

I think that your inference that I am connected by association to right-wing extremism to be quite inflammatory, and possibly an expression of some underlying passive aggressive issues. But I'm no doctor, so of course pay no mind.

I didn't draw that inference and didn't intend to make that implication.

It's too bad C2W?, there are philosophical issues that won't be dealt with until people with different styles of expression for consciousness can sit at the same table and speak and deal honestly rather than manipulatively toward each other.

Some day maybe.

I hope so. Or sometimes, now, maybe even.

[Iamwhomiam]

Thanks, Simulist, but I'm still confused wondering if Atzman's a Mo agent working to further the interests of the Israeli state or whether he actually loathes his government for its many illegal, oppressive and deadly acts.

[compared2what?]

C2W, I just spent a lot of time and energy refuting your historical post of a couple of pages ago; then my computer froze up and crashed. I'm very frustrated, because it was good. Trust me.

But it's 1:00am now, and my eyes are stinging, so I'll just answer your recent questions:

Please try to grasp that the kid in that video is not any more representative of "Israeli" or "zionist" or "Jewish" culture than his Wahhabist equivalent (or, ftm, his equivalent in the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas/Hezbollah, or, ftm, his equivalent in the White Aryan Movement, et cetera, et cetera [/b]) is of "Arabian"/"Egyptian"/"Islamic"/"American"/"Christian" culture.

Of course he is. He's not the face that zionism shows to West audiences, and he's not the face that people in Tel Aviv see, but his, along with that of the brutal, sadistic, murdering soldier, are definitely what zionism looks like to the Palestinians under occupation. How do you think the zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine? By sending them flowers, or by rationally persuading to leave their homes for squalid refugee camps? In fact, morally speaking, his is the only relevant face of zionism, its very embodiment, in practise as opposed to in theory.

As for the Wahhabists, those who massacred the people of the Nejd and Hejaz and the rest of Arabia, who destroyed its cultural, religious and ethnic diversity and transformed the whole region into the fiefdom of one family showed the same face to their victims.

Hamas, Hizbullah and the Muslim Brotherhood have nothing in common with the White Aryan Movement, which is pretty much zionism for white christians; in fact, I'm amazed you can even mention them in the same sentence. That's just crazy.

I've never understood how you can root for Hamas and root against the Muslim Brotherhood, btw. How is that not asking the Palestinians to live under terms you think of as too oppressive for Egyptians?

I "root" for democracy and human dignity and freedom, and for people's right to freely elect their own representatives. The candidates from Hamas had legitimately won the Palestinian people's respect and trust, while the alternative candidates, from Fateh, had compiled a long, dirty record of collaboration with the occupiers in exchange for personal gain. As a result, the Palestinian people democratically elected the candidates of their choice. But the hypocrites in the West and in Israel, who bray about 'democracy', decided to demonstrate their commitment to freedom and human rights by killing and arresting and torturing members of the new government, and deliberately starving 1.5 million trapped, helpless civilians before bombing them with white phosphorous and missiles and destroying their electricity plant and sewage facilities. How sick is that?

I had no real problem with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, especially some individual politicians, when they spoke out bravely on behalf of the poor and oppressed in Egypt and especially when they suffered from Mubarak's regime for it. I only really developed an antipathy for them after they sold out the revolution by cutting secret deals with the US and Egypt's military regime, and then reaped the reward by "winning" in outrageously fraudulent elections.

Contradiction is not argument. Even your genius isn't enough to compensate for that.

[Simulist]

Thanks, Simulist, but I'm still confused wondering if Atzman's a Mo agent working to further the interests of the Israeli state or whether he actually loathes his government for its many illegal, oppressive and deadly acts.

It may not be possible to know this conclusively. But whatever the reasons prompting Gilad Atzmon's hate bait, I want nothing whatsoever to do with him.

[compared2what?]

Thanks, Simulist, but I'm still confused wondering if Atzman's a Mo agent working to further the interests of the Israeli state or whether he actually loathes his government for its many illegal, oppressive and deadly acts.

It may not be possible to know this conclusively. But whatever the reasons prompting Gilad Atzmon's hate bait, I want nothing whatsoever to do with him.

Agreed. It can't be known. But it really and truly doesn't matter. He's such an absolute liability to the cause of those who do oppose his government's many illegal, oppressive and deadly acts that he might as well be actively supporting them. That's been brought to his attention by activists/advocates of unquestioned conviction and sterling repute. And he blew it off completely. So either his judgment's untrustworthy. Or he is. End of story.

Except, of course, that there's evidently nothing anyone can say or do that will persuade Alice to be wary of the Israeli Jew. But, you know. Every cloud has a silver lining.

[Simulist]

Thanks, Simulist, but I'm still confused wondering if Atzman's a Mo agent working to further the interests of the Israeli state or whether he actually loathes his government for its many illegal, oppressive and deadly acts.

It may not be possible to know this conclusively. But whatever the reasons prompting Gilad Atzmon's hate bait, I want nothing whatsoever to do with him.

Agreed. It can't be known. But it really and truly doesn't matter. He's such an absolute liability to the cause of those who do oppose his government's many illegal, oppressive and deadly acts that he might as well be actively supporting them. That's been brought to his attention by activists/advocates of unquestioned conviction and sterling repute. And he blew it off completely. So either his judgment's untrustworthy. Or he is. End of story.

100% agreement with you there. On all counts.

[Iamwhomiam]

Thanks, Sim & C2w?

It's my intuition and nothing more (beside the few words of his I've read here, of course), that leads me to believe he's actually a Mo agent; to raise the anger of Israelis into action and perhaps, as a perk, to add a few more identifiable faces (of those supporting him) for targeting both at home and abroad.

[Searcher08]

My personal PMI about Gilad Atzmon. Your may be very different.

Plus
Gets up Alan Dershowitz's nose

Exile album was BBC jazz album of the year

Speaks to people who picket him


Minus
Quoted enthusiastically on far right sites (seriously the guy practically has a st3rmfr3nt fan club)
At the very least, creates a massive amount of upset created- why?
Many anti-zionist people of goodwill loathe much of what he says.


Interesting
The Guardian have just pulled his book from their shop under pressure from
cifwatch.com Two editions of Mein Kampf are still on sale though...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/11/open-door-controversial-titles-guardian-bookshop

Atzmon is calling out the English Defense League as this far right organisation is being joined by hardcore Islam hating zionists
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/gilad-atzmon-the-jewish-division.html

Seems to have quite a high profile in the Arab world (according to Wiki)

[Simulist]

My personal PMI about Gilad Atzmon. Your may be very different.

Plus
Gets up Alan Dershowitz's nose


[...]

Well, to be fair, so do boogers.