Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:56 pm

TheBlackSheep » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:32 pm wrote:Sure, I get ya. I don't really mind debate much... It's pretty normal that people will blow up when discussing opinions and getting criticized...

I've also been skeptical of how useful the left-right paradigms are for a few reasons... though generally I would align myself with a left stance... that being said certain things that are done in the name of a leftist ideology I am very much against... I don't at all agree with an ends justifies the means point of view because it seems to me that the means are the ends, at a certain moment in time.

I'm a little unsure of what you mean by anarchism being a good stance to view the left-right paradigm for a few reasons... Firstly, I had tried writing on the libcom.org forum before finding this one and I had my thread deleted for asking questions about the bilderberg group and the responses were pretty hostile... they claimed to be an anarchist community and gave me a raft of pages to read saying "this is what we believe here", and I had no idea that anarchists would all adhere to a single rigid ideology...

Also I know there are groups like the black bloc that advertise themselves as anarchist, and judging by some of their activities, I'm not that sure I would find a completely neutral analysis of the situation from that direction...

What I mean by this is that while you are saying that anarchism might be a good perspective to take a step back and look at things from, it seems to me that anarchism, along with most ideologies, are not really that clear cut.

I'm sort of curious from American Dream's comments above what ultimate effect you would like to acheive through the investigation and distribution of 'conspiracy theory' as you see it?


You will certainly meet plenty of people claiming to be anarchists, some are wearisome ideologues (not my style) like the ones you mention above, and some are off-beat and opaque. But you're right, it certainly isn't clear cut in the sense of traditonal ideologies.
I would expand on this by saying that anarchism is not really an ideology, but a container for ideologies. This is quite well addressed in this short and readable piece:

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37563&hilit=anarchism&start=15#p531174

Regarding what I 'would like to achieve via the investigtion and distribution of a conspiracy theory'. The answer is mainly knowledge and increased perspectives on life. I limit it to this because, to be prescriptive here is just asking for trouble, and you just end up projecting what's already in your head, and again, this is why I eschew the ideological approach
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby TheBlackSheep » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:03 pm

Thanks for the description. The question about what "you" are trying to acheive was directed to American Dream, sorry for not making that clear, but your point of view is apperciated as well. I generally feel the same as what you had expressed actually, though I'm uncertain of whether I will ever be able to escape an ideology ultimately anyway...
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:10 pm

TheBlackSheep » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:03 pm wrote:Thanks for the description. The question about what "you" are trying to acheive was directed to American Dream, sorry for not making that clear, but your point of view is apperciated as well. I generally feel the same as what you had expressed actually, though I'm uncertain of whether I will ever be able to escape an ideology ultimately anyway...


It's not really about escaping ideology, it's about not being too rigid in your beliefs, ie not being a fundamentalist, and especially about not projecting them onto others.
Karl Hess' piece describes all this pretty well.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby TheBlackSheep » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:43 pm

It was a good article, thanks for pointing me to it. That was the conception I had of anarchy as well. It was partly why I was surprised at the reaction I got from the libcom forum.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby Sounder » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:43 pm

I'm a little unsure of what you mean by anarchism being a good stance to view the left-right paradigm for a few reasons... Firstly, I had tried writing on the libcom.org forum before finding this one and I had my thread deleted for asking questions about the bilderberg group and the responses were pretty hostile... they claimed to be an anarchist community and gave me a raft of pages to read saying "this is what we believe here", and I had no idea that anarchists would all adhere to a single rigid ideology...



Yes, The Black Sheep, AD is libcom’s emissary to RI.

So here’s the deal, from my perspective anyway. Oligarchs have lots-o-money and spend it freely to maintain their sources of income. They have to spend it freely because they are criminal types whose empire might be hurt if their criminality became common knowledge.

AD’s primary objective (for five years now) is to put ‘conspiracy theory’ in an ideological straitjacket, that oddly enough, shares a trait in common with Nazi’s. That is they both try to write the influence of oligarchs right out of the script.

Hmm, funny that.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby American Dream » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:50 pm

Lest we forget:


Svoboda and the History of Ukrainian Nationalism (1/2)

Historian Per Rudling discusses the influence of the Ukrainian right-wing nationalist party Svoboda and the historical roots of Ukrainian nationalism - March 11, 2014

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?opt ... ival=11568




Per Anders Rudling is an associate professor of the Department of History at Lund University, specializing on nationalism, the Holocaust, and the far right in the Polish-Ukrainian-Belarusian borderlands.

Transcript
RUDLING: Well, the government in Ukraine is a transitional government. It consists of two parties, even though there were three parties that prominently figured in the protests. One was Yatsenyuk's party, which is the party of Yulia Tymoshenko that is now run by her deputy. There is Klitschko's party, UDAR, sort of an anticorruption. Both parties are center-right sort of parties. And there is the radical right-wing Svoboda Party. These three made up the protests sort of opposition together. And two of these--Svoboda and Bat'kivshchyna, or Fatherland, the party of Yatsenyuk--make up the government. And Svoboda has their four government members, and there are another three members that belong to the far right.

Svoboda is a party which is based primarily in western Ukraine, in primarily the regions that before 1940, 1939, were part of Poland, and they grew out of a tradition of Ukrainian [incompr.] nationalism. They particularly identify with the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which was active during World War II and before World War II. It's a party which is regional but claim to be all national--the exact term of the party is the all-Ukrainian party, Svoboda. But it is very regionally based. It belongs to the far-right on the European perspective. It's a member of the so-called Alliance of European National Movements and movements. That means it works closely with parties such as the British National Party in Britain, Jobbik in Hungary, in Sweden a small party called the Nationaldemokraterna (the National Democrats). And what they do want is they promote a policy on ethnic grounds. They are seeing Ukrainians being downtrodden in their own country, and they want to introduce, for instance, a nationality paragraph in the passport or reintroduce the nationality paragraph in the passport. They want to elevate the status of Ukrainian language to the only official language, something which they did succeed, reversing that law a couple of weeks ago. It's a party which belong on the far-right political spectrum. But politically, economically, it's sort of middle-of-the-road. Like many far-right parties, what makes them extreme is not economic policies but sort of this sort of identity politics which they employ. And Svoboda has found its heroes and idols particularly in the very divisive World War II era, and they celebrate in particular the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists Stepan Bandera, who during World War II led the movement, which was involved in atrocities, primarily against the sizable Polish minority in West Ukraine, but also involved in crimes or persecution of Jews and other minorities.

DESVARIEUX: I'm glad you mention that, 'cause I want to get into the history of this right-wing faction and go as far back as sort of the early 20th century. How did they really even get started, these Ukrainian right-wing nationalists?

RUDLING: Well, Ukraine was one of those countries in Europe the national movement of which failed or did not succeed in establishing a national state in 1920, 1919. Right? The Ukrainians were--and is one of the largest ethnic groups in Europe, but they failed to achieve a state. And Ukraine was divided up between four states, primarily Soviet Union and Poland in 1920, 1921. And in the 1920s, Ukrainian nationalism was primarily a left-wing or center-left phenomenon and primarily democratic, but as the Soviet turned increasingly, well, under Stalin, authoritarian and a forced starvation killed millions of Ukrainians, and at the same time the Polish government after 1926 became increasingly authoritarian, after May 1926, there was a rise of the far right. And that was a part of a larger European phenomenon that all of Europe in the 1930s, particularly this part of Europe, became authoritarian, dominated by authoritarian right-wing movements. The Ukrainians were no exception. So, as the political conditions became such that in the Soviet Union, Ukrainians were being killed en masse, dying due to famine, due to starvation under Stalin, and in Poland Ukrainian parties were discriminated, there was a current that took up an armed struggle against the Polish authorities. They wanted to create an independent Ukraine, in fact a greater Ukraine encompassing all the ethnographic Ukrainian territories. And this organization, an organization which was called the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, OUN, or /un/, was founded in 1929. It became, over the course of 1930s, and particularly during World War II, the predominant Ukrainian nationalist force. And as Hitler and Stalin divided up Poland in 1939, many Ukrainian nationalists from western Ukraine ended up under German control. And they were reconstituted there in Kraków, and they cooperated with the Germans, claim that Germany would be this catalyst which would change the status quo in Europe. So it's not only Ukrainian nationalists, but also Croatian nationalists and Slovak nationalists, started to orient [incompr.] towards Germany, which would overthrow the--if somebody could overthrew this order, it would be Germany. But it was also an affiliation of--an ideological affiliation. The OUN wanted a one-party state under its leadership, an ethnically cleansed one-party state with no room for Jews and Poles and other minorities. And they sought to bring this about through the use of political terrorisms, through assassinations, through all the use of mass political violence. So to position the OUN historically, I guess this is still very much contested. But I do believe, and others do believe, other colleagues of mine do believe that also that the OUN can be classified as a fascist movement, sort of a generic Eastern European fascism. So you should make the distinction between Naziism and fascism. But if you talk about fascism as a larger generic phenomenon of radical right-wing movement seeking to overthrow society and have a rebirth of the society on a basis of new order, in that sense, OUN was created--in my assessment, a fascist movement.

As World War II broke out, there was a wave of anti-Jewish violence in western Ukraine, and the OUN, according to the most current research, played a central role in the organization of these pogroms, and between 17,000 and 35,000 Jews were killed during the first few weeks of the war.

The OUN later on, well, they tried to establish independent Ukrainian state, but the Germans, unlike in the case of the Slovaks and unlike in the case of the Croats, they were not prepared to recognize them as allies. In fact, the Ukrainians were treated as subhumans and treated extremely cruel by the Nazi government, and they would not be interested in cooperating with Germans and crack down on Ukrainian nationalism soon after the invasion.

Still, some of these Ukrainian and nationalist forces, when they weren't recognized as partners, many of them went into the German police forces in 1942 and 1943. And after Stalingrad, there was a complete break, and the OUN policemen withdrew their support for the Germans, and they organized a so-called Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA, Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya), which fought for an independent Ukraine sort of as the armed branch of the OUN. Here they also took part in the killing of Jews, but particularly in the ethnic cleansing of Poles in western Ukraine. This was a--western Ukraine was an ethnically mixed area in order to remove the Poles to prevent Polish postwar claim on this region after the war, 'cause this had been part of Poland in the interwar period. Poland, as you know, was pushed 400 kilometers to the west by Joseph Stalin [incompr.] Poland became western Ukraine. So the Poles were removed by the UPA.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby Zombie Glenn Beck » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:06 pm

American Dream » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:34 am wrote:
TheBlackSheep » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:23 am wrote:I'm kind of confused by some of the discussion going on in this thread, if someone would give me a bit of an explanation I would appreciate it. There is quite a bit of talk, from the first post and beyond to these last few posts about 'conspiracy theory' being centered around a type of ideology, whether it be an anti-ideology or whichever other ideology in focus (in a post above "Third Position/National Anarchist").

I'm not sure if there is something that I am missing. Is it being proposed that the conspiracy theorizing in some forms are based around an ideology in such a way that the issues being adressed (the "facts" that the theory is based on) is shaped by that ideology. Or is it being proposed that the contents of a 'conspiracy theory' is being used as a justification for the proposition/ defense in favor of a certain ideology, or something else entirely?

I'm just not really sure how ideology formally fits into the discussion, beyond perhaps that certain actions that are examined (as being conspiratorial) are taken as a result of an ideology of one or many of the 'players' involved in the conspiracy.

Anyone wish to give me a hand understanding what the issue is here?


I'll speak only for myself:

My critical comments regarding "Third Positionist/National Anarchist type shite" relate to ongoing sexual tension with jakell.



FTFY
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:15 pm

. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I don't get many laugh out loud moments nowadays, so thanks for that.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby American Dream » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:38 pm

Against nationalism - Anarchist Federation

Image

Published in September 2009, an analysis of nationalism, where it comes from, and why anarchists fundamentally oppose it.

Why do anarchists oppose nationalism?

Anarchists in the class struggle (or communist) tradition, such as the anarchist federation, do not see the world in terms of competing national peoples, but in terms of class. We do not see a world of nations in struggle, but of classes in struggle. The nation is a smokescreen, a fantasy which hides the struggle between classes which exists within and across them. Though there are no real nations, there are real classes with their own interests, and these classes must be differentiated. Consequently, there is no single ‘people’ within the ‘nation’, and there is no shared ‘national interest’ which unifies them.

Anarchist communists do not simply oppose nationalism because it is bound up in racism and parochial bigotry. It undoubtedly fosters these things, and mobilised them through history. Organising against them is a key part of anarchist politics. But nationalism does not require them to function. Nationalism can be liberal, cosmopolitan and tolerant, defining the ‘common interest’ of ‘the people’ in ways which do not require a single ‘race’. Even the most extreme nationalist ideologies, such as fascism, can co-exist with the acceptance of a multiracial society, as was the case with the Brazilian Integralist movement[6]. Nationalism uses what works – it utilises whatever superficial attribute is effective to bind society together behind it. In some cases it utilises crude racism, in other cases it is more sophisticated. It manipulates what is in place to its own ends. In many western countries, official multiculturalism is a key part of civic policy and a corresponding multicultural nationalism has developed alongside it. The shared ‘national culture’ comes to be official multiculturalism itself, allowing for the integration of ‘citizens’ into the state without recourse to crude monoculturalism. If the nationalist rhetoric of the capitalist state was of the most open, tolerant and anti-racist kind, anarchists would still oppose it.

This is because, at heart, nationalism is an ideology of class collaboration. It functions to create an imagined community of shared interests and in doing so to hide the real, material interests of the classes which comprise the population. The ‘national interest’ is a weapon against the working class, and an attempt to rally the ruled behind the interests of their rulers. The ideological and sometimes physical mobilisation of the population on a mass scale in the name of some shared and central national trait have marked the wars of the Twentieth and Twenty-First centuries – the bloodbath in Iraq rationalised in the name of Western democratic culture and the strengthening of the domestic state in the name of defending the British or American traditions of freedom and democracy against Islamic terror are recent examples.

Ultimately, the anarchist opposition to nationalism follows a simple principle. The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. This is not just a slogan, but the reality of the world we live in. Class antagonism is an inherent part of capitalism, and will exist irrespective of whether intellectuals and political groups theorise about its existence or non-existence. Class is not about your accent, your consumption habits, or whether your collar is blue or white. The working class – what is sometimes called the proletariat - is the dispossessed class, the class who have no capital, no control over the overall conditions of their lives and nothing to live off but their ability to work for a wage. They may well have a house and a car, but they still need to sell their ability to work to an employer in return for the money they need to live on. Their interests are specific, objective and material: to get more money from their employers for less work, and to get better living and working conditions. The interests of capital are directly opposed: to get more work out of us for less, and to cut corners and costs, in order to return a higher rate of profit and allow their money to become more money more quickly and efficiently. Class struggle is the competition between these interests. Even non-productive workplaces are shaped by these rules, as they are the fundamental principles of capitalist society. The interests of capital are expressed through those with power, who are likewise obliged to maintain these interests in order to keep their own power – owners of private capital, the bosses who make decisions on its behalf, and the state which is required to enshrine and defend private property and ownership rights.

The ‘national interest’ is simply the interest of capital within the country in question. It is the interest of the owners of society, who in turn can only express the fundamental needs of capital – accumulate or die. At home, its function is to domesticate those within a society who can pose antagonism with it – the working class. This antagonism, which is inherent to capitalism, is one which anarchists see as being capable of moving beyond capitalism. We have to struggle in our interests to get the things we need as concessions from capital. This dynamic takes place regardless of whether elaborate theories are constructed around it. Workers in China or Bangladesh occupying factories and rioting against the forces of the state are not necessarily doing it because they have encountered revolutionary theory, but because the conditions of their lives mean they have to. Similarly class solidarity exists not because people are charitable but because solidarity is in their interests. The capitalists have the state - the law, the courts and prisons. We only have each other. Alone we can achieve very little, but together we can cause disruption to the everyday functioning of capitalism, a powerful weapon. Of course, class struggles are rarely pure and unsullied things, and they can be overlaid with bigotries and factional interests of various kinds. It is the job of revolutionary groups and anarchist organisation in the workplace to combat these tendencies, to contribute to the development of class consciousness and militancy and to complement the process by which divisions are challenged through joint struggle which takes place within struggles of significant magnitude.

The ruling class are fully aware of these issues, and are conscious in acting in their interests. Solidarity is the only thing we can hold over their heads, and for that reason the state takes great care to get us to act against our own interests. Nationalism is one of their greatest weapons in this regard, and has consequently served an important historical purpose. It lines us up behind our enemies, and demands we ignore our own interests as members of the working class in deference to those of the nation. It leads to the domestication of the working class, leading working class people to identify themselves in and through the nation and to see solutions to the problems they face in terms of it. This is not terminal as we already know; circumstances can force people to act in their interests, and through this process ideas develop and change. To take a dramatic example from history, workers across the world marched off to war to butcher one another in 1914, only to take up arms against their masters in an international wave of strikes, mutinies, uprisings and revolutions from 1917 onwards.
Nonetheless, nationalism is a poison to be resisted tooth and nail. It is an ideology of domestication.
It is a weapon against us. It is an organised parochialism, designed to split the working class - which as a position within the economic system is international - along national lines.

Ultimately, even if we lay aside our principled and theoretical opposition to nationalism, the idea of any kind of meaningful national self-determination in the modern world is idealism. Nations cannot self-determine when subject to a world capitalist market, and those who frame their politics in terms of regaining national sovereignty against world capitalism, such as contemporary fascists and their fellow travellers, seek an unattainable golden age before modern capitalism. The modern world is an integrated one, one where international ‘co-operation’ and conflict cannot be readily separated, and which are expressed through international institutions and organisations like the UN, WTO, World Bank, EU, NATO, and so on. The nationalist fantasy is an empty one as much as it is a reactionary one. Anarchists recognise as much in their opposition. We will return to this point later.

Before we go further, it is necessary to pre-empt a common and fallacious ‘criticism’. We do not stand for monoculture. We do not seek to see the rich diversity of human cultural expression standardised in an anarchist society. How could we? The natural mixing of culture stands against the fantasies of nationalists. National blocs are never impervious to cultural influence, and culture spreads and mingles with time. The idea of self-contained national cultures, which nationalists are partisans of, is a myth. Against this we pose the free interchange of cultural expression in a free, stateless communist society as a natural consequence of the struggle against the state and capitalism.

The anarchist communist opposition to nationalism must be vocal and clear. We do not fudge internationalism. Internationalism does not mean the co-operation of capitalist nations, or national working classes, but the fundamental critique of the idea of the nation and nationality.

The left and the ‘national question’

The contemporary sight of leftist groups supporting reactionary organisations and states is something frequently criticised by a number of voices for a number of reasons. The revulsion at the sight of self-proclaimed socialists cheerleading organisations like Hamas, chanting “we are all Hezbollah” at ‘anti-war’ demonstrations, and supporting regimes which repress workers’ struggles, imprison and execute working class activists, oppress women and persecute gays and lesbians is entirely justified. But the manner of thinking which allows for this to happen has a long pedigree. The way in which Marxist movements accommodated to nationalism, and in many cases functioned as the midwives of nationalist movements and nation-states every bit as objectionable as their western counterparts is the foundation of contemporary ‘anti-imperialist’ nationalism, and understanding the relationship between the workers’ movement and nationalism is vital to understanding modern ‘wars of national liberation’ and the response to them.

Marx himself, as on so many questions, did not provide any one clear position which we can accurately attribute as categorically ‘his’. The Communist Manifesto, despite comprising a patently non-communist program, concluded with the famous call, ‘workers of the world, unite!’, expressing the internationalist opposition to the domestication of the working class by nationalism. At the same time, Marx and Engels shared the standard liberal-nationalist view of the time that the principle of nation-building was consolidation, not disintegration. Engels famously remarked that he did not see the Czechs surviving as an independent people for this reason. For some time Marx and Engels supported the ‘national liberation’ of Poland (and consequently a movement for independence led by aristocrats) for strategic reasons – striking a blow against autocratic Russia and, in their view, defending capitalist development and therefore the preconditions for socialism in Western Europe. His attitude to Ireland was marked by similar tactical considerations. Discussing the rights and wrongs of this approach in a period of developed world capitalism is academic, and beyond the remit of this pamphlet. But it is clear that in many ways Marx was reflecting the widespread views of the early to mid 19th century liberal nationalism as it has been outlined above.

The leftist demand for national self-determination as a right was current at the same time it became so more generally and debates over the ‘national question’ animated the second international, with the conflict on the question between Lenin and the Polish-born Marxist Rosa Luxembourg becoming notorious. Lenin’s positions were typically contradictory, though in the main he argued on similar grounds to Marx on the matter – national liberation should be supported in as far as it advanced the development of the working class cause and the preconditions for socialism. Nonetheless, the Bolsheviks were vocal in their support of ‘the right of nations to self-determination’, following the passing of a resolution by the second international supporting the ‘complete right of all nations to self-determination’.

This view was opposed by Rosa Luxemburg. Luxemburg recognised that the matter of ‘national independence’ was a question of force, not ‘rights’. For her, the discussion of the ‘rights’ of ‘self-determination’ was utopian, idealist and metaphysical; its reference point was the not the material opposition of classes but the world of bourgeois nationalist myths. She was particularly vocal on this point when arguing against the Polish socialists, who used Marx’s earlier (tactical) position as a permanent blessing for their own nationalism.

Nonetheless, it was the Bolsheviks who seized power in Russia, leading the counter-revolution in that country. Following the civil war, their support for the ‘right of nations to self-determination’ led to some curious experiments in ‘nation-building’ which stood in parallel with the efforts of Woodrow Wilson and the Versailles Treaty in Europe a few years previously.[7] The creation of ‘national administrative units’ for various non-Russian ‘nations’ within the newly proclaimed USSR was a result of the assumptions of Soviet bureaucrats, not due to some will to nationhood of the Uzbeks, Turkmen and Kazakhs. Of course, with the crushing of the Russian revolution by the state-capitalist regime under the control of the Bolsheviks, who systematically destroyed or co-opted both the organs of self-management the working class had developed for themselves and the revolutionaries who defended them (such as the anarchists), the question was rendered null, as the Bolsheviks’ sole consideration was their own power. Like its Western rival, the USSR used the rhetoric of ‘self-determination’ and ‘independence’ to expand its own sphere of dominance.

Still, the principle that nations had an inherent right to self-determination against ‘national oppression’ had gained a commonsensical dominance amongst the workers’ movement, as it had amongst the wider population.


http://libcom.org/library/against-nationalism
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:50 pm

Well, at least they identify themselves once as communists, and fortunately this is near the beginning of the article. This should really be done all the way through though because the one can form the impression that they are speaking for all anarchists as a whole.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:58 pm

Borders, for whatever its worth, are a lot like "classes" -- a fabricated abstraction that becomes real. Nations are of course just "lines on a map," but I would urge anyone reading this to embody that praxis by attempting to cross the US-Mexico border. That shit got pretty real! It is a full-fledged artifact now.

The observation that these kind of reified divisions are not "real," therefore, strikes me as a matter of wishful thinking, a tantrum of negation.

And bear in mind, I actually argue that position! I just can't do it in the mirror with a straight face, is all.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby American Dream » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:03 pm

jakell » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:50 pm wrote:Well, at least they identify themselves once as communists, and fortunately this is near the beginning of the article. This should really be done all the way through though because the one can form the impression that they are speaking for all anarchists as a whole.


Basically, the very few "national anarchist" type there are in North America have gotten their butts kicked to the curb from one end of the continent to the other. Nobody likes them in the anarchist world and they get no acceptance at all. They are rightly considered to be far right/fascist types in drag.

It's pathetic, really- and will not succeed...



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Last edited by American Dream on Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby American Dream » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:16 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:58 pm wrote:Borders, for whatever its worth, are a lot like "classes" -- a fabricated abstraction that becomes real. Nations are of course just "lines on a map," but I would urge anyone reading this to embody that praxis by attempting to cross the US-Mexico border. That shit got pretty real! It is a full-fledged artifact now.

The observation that these kind of reified divisions are not "real," therefore, strikes me as a matter of wishful thinking, a tantrum of negation.

And bear in mind, I actually argue that position! I just can't do it in the mirror with a straight face, is all.


This is not some abstract and/or absolutist piece of ivory tower theory- rather it is a guide to praxis that strongly critiques the sort of national liberation struggles Marxist-Leninists have historically embraced. Equally so, it would reject the sort of cultural nationalism that denies/negates the importance of class struggle- as for example, the Nation of Islam, which assumes that blacks living hand to mouth and the black owning class are on essentially the same team.

The Nation of Islam famously made a linkage with David Duke, and I seem to remember an earlier gesture of alliance from George Lincoln Rockwell, the American Nazi leader.

This is utter bullshit to me, and a sign of how deeply lacking these sorts of movements are.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby TheBlackSheep » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:36 am

Does modern Marxism-Lenninism (and its anarchist variant) still advocate an elite to pave the way for the liberation of the 'lethargic masses' and instate centralized planning?
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:04 am

TheBlackSheep » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:36 am wrote:Does modern Marxism-Lenninism (and its anarchist variant) still advocate an elite to pave the way for the liberation of the 'lethargic masses' and instate centralized planning?


Very likely. This is the trouble with 'anarchist' variants, it may be just lip service. The only real way of telling is to get up close** and avoid wordy generalistions from the distance provided by obscure internet forums

The Left are by far more experienced at this though, and have been doing it for decades. The Right are a long way behind and are easier to spot.
Hess's piece is a good yardstick.

**I would count developing an online relationship as 'up close'.
" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
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