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barracuda wrote:Generally speaking, it makes sense to separate the output of an artist or writer from their biography and assess the work on its merits. If you find value in Marshall's research, take it for what it's worth, especially considering that we don't even yet have closure on the investigation into his death. You don't have to condemn or glorify him in order to use his data points.
For instance, I'd consider Marshall's insistence that the hijackers could have flown the planes themselves, by hand, and matched the flight data recordings released by the NTSB to be an important data point in discussions of remote control theories. HIs expertise in the control of the exact planes used in the attack lends weight to his conclusions, and allows him to proceed from that baseline to an examination of just where, exactly, and from whom did the hijackers receive training adequate to this task. Which led him to Pinal Airpark, previously identified by Jeremy Scahill as an intelligence air hub. The theory pointing to Pinal as the flight training base for the 911 pilots is probably the most important tidbit in The Big Bamboozle, especially wrt the connection to Blackwater.
Nice boneyard there.
Marshall's research connecting the Saudi financiers of Iran-Contra to the 911 attacks is the closest thing I've seen to a mea culpa for his own involvement in an operation he recognized as extremely shady. Nevertheless, his personal excitement at relaying this aspect of his own history is disappointingly palpable.
The rest of his research on the Sauds should be immediately recognizable to you: Omar al-Bayoumi, Osama Bassan, Bandar bin Sultan, Turki bin Faisal. You already knew this stuff. Anyone who was paying attention knew the Saudis were heavily involved in the operation very early on. The hijackers were Saudis. Bob Graham's inquiry is used extensively as a source in the book.
FourthBase wrote:Marshall may have been a hero, an intrepid researcher who may have been horrifically murdered along with his two children and dog, in order to not only silence him but spoil his reputation forever. If that were the case, then nearly the only people in the world, the only place in the world, where his research and reputation would not be subject to automatic dismissal and ruination, would be us, here.
My responses here yesterday were written on a phone while riding a train, and so by necessity, somewhat thin. I hope you'll forgive me for seeking to flesh them out now.
Anywhere research of 911 as a conspiracy is taken seriously, Marshall's death is being discussed. A cursory search of the web demonstrates the predominance of black op theories surrounding the killings. Google search for "Philip Marshall murder", first page results:CIA Killed Phillip Marshall for Leaking 9/11 Secrets: Dr. Kevin Barrett ...
http://www.infowars.com/cia-killed-phil ... cret...Mar 5, 2013 – Philip Marshall was killed in a black operation over confessing to having worked with CIA drug smugglers and the potential exposure of 9/11 ...
Philip Marshall 'Murder-Suicide' – A Lack of Evidence
21stcenturywire.com/.../philip-marshall-murder-suicide-a-lack-of-evi...Feb 28, 2013 – Many news reports have been quick to echo what the Calaveras County Sheriffs Department has claimed; Philip Marshall killed his two ...
Was It Murder? Philip Marshall, Author of `Big Bamboozle,' Dead
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/book.. ... er.htmlMar 15, 2013 – March 9—In February 2012, Philip Marshall, a veteran airline pilot, published The Big Bamboozle: 9/11 and the War on Terror, which ...
“100% Certain”: 9/11 Author Was Killed in Black Ops Hit | Veterans ...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/.../100-ce ... -bla...Feb 20, 2013 – *Philip Marshall, who had expressed his fear of being harassed or ... all of Marshall's neighbors believe it was a professional murder, not the ...
9/11 and Philip Marshall Murder-Suicide Questions - Before It's News
beforeitsnews.com/.../911-and-philip-marshall-murder-suicide-questi...Feb 20, 2013 – 21st Century Wire says… No one can report they heard shots or screams from the Marshall house, nestled in the quiet small picturesque town ...
Michael Moore politicizes Phil Marshall Death - YouTube
► 3:42► 3:42
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uHtKpkL4rQ
Feb 22, 2013 - Uploaded by danp5648
Two teens killed by father in apparent murder-suicide, officials say ...
More videos for philip marshall murder »
9/11 Conspiracy Author Phillip Marshall & His 2 Kids Found Dead in ...
dcxposed.com/.../911-conspiracy-author-phillip-marshall-m...
by Ed Brown - in 41 Google+ circles - More by Ed Brown
Feb 6, 2013 – Phillip Marshall, a former airplane pilot and author whose works included the 2003 novel Lakefront Airport and The Big Bamboozle: 9/11 and ...
Phillip Marshall Wrote About a Conspiracy; Was He the Victim of One?
http://www.santabarbaraview.com/phillip ... pira...Feb 12, 2013 – The official time of death in the Philip Marshall incident is wrong and the ... The guy's dead (Philip Marshall, ex-CIA, accused of murder-suicide ...
Author Philip Marshall murder conspiracy - Ok! Here is the Situation
okhereisthesituation.com/.../author-philip-marshall-murder-conspirac...Feb 26, 2013 – Author Philip Marshall murder conspiracy. Former National Security Agency officer Wayne Madsen says he is “100% certain” that 9/11 ...
Phillip Marshall, airline captain, 9/11 activist, author accused ...
letsrollforums.com › ... › The Town Cryer - Discussion, Intro's...
6 posts - 5 authors - Feb 10
Captain Phillip Marshall has been accused of killing himself, son, and daughter in California. He had no motive to kill himself or his children.
So, within the "culture" of the examination of 911 conspiracy, the notion of Marshall's assassination is the mainstream line of thought. And the people who should be most interested in Marshall's research are exactly those persons most likely to be spurred by the circumstances of his death to visit his material in earnest anew. Unfortunately, I don't see a great deal of analysis of his writings going on, especially with any eyes toward realitically appraising those writings in terms of motivations for some hypothetical assassination of himself, his children and his dog.
We don't call people heroes for what they might have done. I may not be the brightest bulb in the lamp around here, but it doesn't take intellectual superiority to see that we should take pains to separate Marshall's work (if it has any value on its own) from notions of martyrdom or heroism based upon what we know so far. Because what it becomes is a password, a stamp of approval into the club of 911 conspiracy thought. The assumption that Marshall was killed, that he can be parlayed into a Truther hero, is just the sort of thing that keeps real research from reaching a mainstream breaking point, keeps it marginalized. If you need to praise Marshall, praise his research for what it is. Once you bring his biography into it, then you have to deal not just with Mena and gun running for Ollie North, but also the as yet unprovable speculation regarding a black ops hit.
I don't know about you, but I've had it with reaching the point in examining an event like this at which any information that comes out from institutional channels like the coroner or the sheriff's investigation is automatically disinformation to cover the trail of an operation. It's confirmation bias at best, and at worst an end to finding out what may have happened. It's already occurred in the Newtown killing, and probably here as well. No matter what the findings of the official investigation are, they'll only have merit in as much as they verify Marshall's innocence. No matter what the wife eventually says, same thing.
On the other hand, if his research has merit, it'll stand no matter if he's guilty or not.
coffin_dodger wrote:These self-indulgent, intellectually superior individuals ... tend to stick to what is safe - facts, figures and the opinions of the general consensus.
It's always nice to hear facts being disparaged. They really are pesky and irritating when you're trying to make a point. Strangely enough, they're precisely what you look for on an automotive or bicycle repair forum. Or in 911 research, for that matter.
But as far as I can tell by a google search (and an additional look at this thread), the general consensus is that Marshall was killed in a black op hit. The vast, vast majority of returns regarding his name and the name of his book are of this opinion. So who's really toeing the line here?
One thing I know, nobody calls you a gatekeeper when you agree with them. That's the safe position around these parts. Keep that in mind, all you impressionable youngsters out there.
barracuda wrote:8bit, I've carried your comments on Marshall from the other thread to this one to avoid any misconceptions regarding my motivations.
8bitagent wrote:2. Remember my first post in the Philip Marshall thread? I said I had no reason to suspect their was foul play in the murder-suicide. It makes me very angry and sad that any person could do such an evil thing,
so yes it unfortunately sours me on his research even tho i feel its extremely solid work.
Generally speaking, it makes sense to separate the output of an artist or writer from their biography and assess the work on its merits. If you find value in Marshall's research, take it for what it's worth, especially considering that we don't even yet have closure on the investigation into his death. You don't have to condemn or glorify him in order to use his data points.
For instance, I'd consider Marshall's insistence that the hijackers could have flown the planes themselves, by hand, and matched the flight data recordings released by the NTSB to be an important data point in discussions of remote control theories. HIs expertise in the control of the exact planes used in the attack lends weight to his conclusions, and allows him to proceed from that baseline to an examination of just where, exactly, and from whom did the hijackers receive training adequate to this task. Which led him to Pinal Airpark, previously identified by Jeremy Scahill as an intelligence air hub. The theory pointing to Pinal as the flight training base for the 911 pilots is probably the most important tidbit in The Big Bamboozle, especially wrt the connection to Blackwater.![]()
82_28 wrote:The thing I don't get is that seems like next to nobody understands is that, at that age old "existential level", IT HAPPENED. The point of it was it happening, not the hows and whys. This is why I hunch that the buildings were themselves built to one day be destroyed -- that was their prime purpose. I am not saying they were wired for destruction, but they were psychologically wired to mean something more than just the "face of NYC in every goddamned romance movie ever made" and then get destroyed in a pre-all-ubiquitous-technology-takeover that would commence forthwith. CD notwithstanding, it was the meaning placed upon iconic buildings that were always meant to be thrown away at some spectacular yet humdrum yet meaningful date.
Remember when fucking David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear on prime time TV? Yeah, same thing, just different levels of death, destruction, fear and confusion. Didn't he walk through the Great Wall of China back then too?
I dunno guys. I really don't take to any one side. I have my hunches and ideas, but I certainly think that as opposed to happy amazement, somebody married fear to amazement in order to make a move on a psychological game board that cannot be resisted by most and colors the forthcoming generations in ways they will never know what became of those who came before them.
FourthBase wrote:Well, then again, you do have to admit that you have a more frequent tendency to give the appearance of keeping gates, that the contemptuous epithet Barricade, while unfair, was not wholly undeserved. Would you concede that carefully-qualified point?
barracuda wrote:FourthBase wrote:Well, then again, you do have to admit that you have a more frequent tendency to give the appearance of keeping gates, that the contemptuous epithet Barricade, while unfair, was not wholly undeserved. Would you concede that carefully-qualified point?
As you might imagine, that's not how I look at it. I feel I'm helping in my small way to open the door to higher analyses unclouded by poor logic, default solutions, and wrongheadedness. We don't need to have an echo chamber here. It seems like people have a hard time appreciating this because they tend to focus on my dickish manners and other assorted character flaws. I will admit to an occasional inability to resist pointing out what I see as defects in other peoples lines of thought rather than focusing upon my own perspective. I do actively work on channelling that impulse towards more positive ends. We all have our faults.
Gatekeeping is a matter of perspective. I often see the gate as being tended from the other side. Sometimes people don't like it when I express my opinion or intuition on things because they're against the grain of the typical conspiracy approach even on RI, and I get to deal with their extreme antipathy. I argued against controlled demolition and remote control for years, and was considered a gatekeeper for that. Maybe I still am. But I could never understand how the required acceptance of CD in any way altered a person's political response to 911 as a deep state crime. Because it doesn't, or shouldn't.
So regarding Marshall, the requirement that I, or anyone, should have to accept that he was murdered adds nothing to our understanding of his research and the evaluation of its worth. And my intuition is that he wasn't murdered. This isn't like the case of Gary Webb, in which his life and career were basically destroyed by TPTB long before his actual death. Marshall enjoyed the comfortable trappings of an upper-middle-class life until the day he and his family perished.
Of course, should convincing evidence or argument surface regarding a hit, I'm open to it.
Anyway, thanks for the reprieve, and the thoughtful response.
FourthBase wrote:And here, dear teammate, is where we should dispense with any false modesty about who we are, what this board is. We, are the best. This board, is a lonely subset of said conspiracy-culture, the subset defined as That Part Which Sucks The Very Least, which is special in both the quality of our deliberations and the quantity of our collective intellectual might. As such, we here ought to feel a special responsibility to uphold the spirit of the board, christened by its dear, mostly-absent-now proprietor in the name "Rigorous Intuition", an ideal so precious on the internet that even the nomenclature alone is what I suspect draws a handful of the world's premier outcasts from the veiled realm of mainstream culture. For the most part, we do uphold that ideal. Even when we don't (you and I above as exhibits 1a and 1b), more and more we recover our senses quicker and quicker, with fewer and fewer of the grudges and pebbles left to spoil the pursuit. It may need to be acknowledged: This board is only improving. Exhibit A, you and I, here, now.
FourthBase wrote:
It takes all kinds. Like a team sport, there are a variety of positional roles that need to be fulfilled in order to compete, to win. Not every basketball team can be entirely composed of 6'8" wings who can do everything, dribble the ball and make pinpoint passes like a point guard, hit contested threes and dunk with authority, shake and bake down low for the high-percentage layups, guard the rim like a center, etc. In fact, no basketball team has ever been like that, although the Heat (boo!) come close. Here, not everyone can individually embody the ideal of Rigorous Intuition in all its facets, all the time. There are, at any given time, on any given topic, those who intuit, those who rigorize, those who intuitively rigorize, those who rigorously intuit, etc. If this board were a corporation, I imagine we would all be given a personality type test, or rather, a personal philosophy test, dichotomized and rated according to four quadrants of type, like Myers-Briggs. And then we'd have a boss who every morning would assign, based on personality-matching and respective expertise, a certain select project team to synergistically examine each topic. Instead of "Bob, Carol, Tom...you've got the Macy's account", it'd be "8bitagent, elfismiles, barracuda, [insert whomever else]...you've got the Rand Paul filibuster account", or something like that. Such a system might have its upsides, but, naturally, thank christ we are not such a corporation.
conniption wrote:I wish you'd knock ^this kind^ of shit off, FB. Wtf.
RI is RI. It takes all kinds of people.
We're not special. We're not a cult. (and if you are so fuckin' special, I'm outta here.)
Give it a rest. Please.
Fuck that shit. Please.
FourthBase wrote:conniption wrote:I wish you'd knock ^this kind^ of shit off, FB. Wtf.
RI is RI. It takes all kinds of people.
We're not special. We're not a cult. (and if you are so fuckin' special, I'm outta here.)
Give it a rest. Please.
Fuck that shit. Please.
Uh...please elaborate?
conniption wrote:FourthBase wrote:conniption wrote:I wish you'd knock ^this kind^ of shit off, FB. Wtf.
RI is RI. It takes all kinds of people.
We're not special. We're not a cult. (and if you are so fuckin' special, I'm outta here.)
Give it a rest. Please.
Fuck that shit. Please.
Uh...please elaborate?
No. Not right now. Sorry.
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