Mass shooting in Las Vegas, 2/10/2017

[Iamwhomiam]

nashvillebrook wrote,

ETA — even if the shooter acted alone, with no larger political intent, that doesn’t mean that his actions won’t be used politically to increase tension. <— might be the biggest thing bothering me about this.

Seeking relevancy, our politicians will leap at any opportunity to proclaim their significance by passing insignificant, ineffective legislation. Applause, please.

Burnt Hill, I thought about that and the 50# of Tannerlite he allegedly had in his car and then about the 4-chan posting about the three black vans. I was thinking maybe a charge was supposed to be placed on the jet fuel tank by accomplices but wasn't, that was to be set off by being shot - actually or as part of a sting that went bad. I think Rex already mentioned the difficulty in igniting jet fuel, so maybe just wasted words, I dunno.

[stickdog99]

Maybe the camera on the serving cart was to let the shooter know it was time to aim for the jet fuel tank.

"Taking out a lot of people when I go" is not an uncommon desire in disgruntled/mentally troubled men.

Have any of the guns in the hotel room been directly linked to Paddock?

If he actually meticulously planned this thing, he should have figured out the he was not going to set off aviation fuel tanks that were 700 yards away with any of the weapons he had in the room.

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/10/why-st ... las-vegas/

“He was pretty much doomed to fail,” said John Goodpaster, professor of chemistry and director of the forensic-sciences program at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

Investigators said Paddock, 64, used an arsenal including a modified AR-15 rifle to commit his crime, at one point shooting at two large jet-fuel tanks about 2,000 feet away on property owned McCarran International Airport. The tanks are used to refuel the private planes kept on the site, according to the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Two rounds hit the tanks, and one penetrated a tank, but caused little damage.

“Airport fueling has not been compromised,” McCarran spokesman Chris Jones told the newspaper. “It’s functional.”

Paddock’s motives remain a mystery, but it seems likely he had shot at the tanks in the hopes of causing an explosion. The tanks lay at a distinctly different angle from the concert, and would likely have required him to shoot the from the other of the two windows he shattered with a hammer before opening fire.

That strategy implies that Paddock was hardly a terrorist mastermind, at least when it came to explosives, experts said.

“This guy couldn’t possibly have thought that he could blow up a tank of sitting fuel with a round of lead, could he?” Mike Boyd, an aviation analyst for Colorado-based Boyd Group International, said.

Simple chemistry made an action-movie blast impossible. Jet fuel is actually relatively hard to get to catch fire — it burns at between 800 and 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit.

“I used to train hazardous-material instructors at airports, and one of the things we taught was that if you even if took a blowtorch to a bucket of standing jet fuel, it would take about 90 seconds for it to want to burn,” Boyd said.

In addition, jet fuel requires a persnickety ratio of fuel to air for even its flammable vapor to combust. To ignite 17 ounces of jet fuel, for example, it would have to be atomized, or mixed in, with 1,000 ounces of air.

“All fuels need air to burn, and in a pretty specific ratio of air to fuel, which is why you can flood a car engine, where you have too much gasoline and not enough air,” Goodpaster said. “And you have to heat up jet fuel quite a lot; it’s like diesel. If you just shot a bullet into a liquid container, even if you were shooting at the upper part with the air-filled head space, it would be hard to make burn.”

[Burnt Hill]

Thanks 'dog.

[JackRiddler]

We seem to all be agreed there is the smell of spook about him.

We may differ on the general incidence of people who'd be willing to stick a machine gun or other set of weapons to a crowd for the kicks or sense of vendetta or sense of achievement (given that mass killers have a league tote-board and celebrity, etc.). I would never think people with this tendency could be a majority, or just anyone, but enough out there fantasizing about doing it that given the means and the right stressors cases who actually execute will appear on a regular basis. Do I see that in him based on what we know? Not necessarily yet, but the thing that happened, happened, and Paddock as the shooter remains the far more plausible explanation for the available known knowns of this case (few, other than the carnage) than the alternate scenarios forwarded.

As for him having confederates, open question.

[brekin]

We seem to all be agreed there is the smell of spook about him.
We may differ on the general incidence of people who'd be willing to stick a machine gun or other set of weapons to a crowd for the kicks or sense of vendetta or sense of achievement (given that mass killers have a league tote-board and celebrity, etc.). I would never think people with this tendency could be a majority, or just anyone, but enough out there fantasizing about doing it that given the means and the right stressors cases who actually execute will appear on a regular basis. Do I see that in him based on what we know? Not necessarily yet, but the thing that happened, happened, and Paddock as the shooter remains the far more plausible explanation for the available known knowns of this case (few, other than the carnage) than the alternate scenarios forwarded.
As for him having confederates, open question.

Yup. Much has been made of his iconoclastic bank robbing daddy but one wonders how much that might have been a/the contributing influence (if not directly day to day, then symbolically always transmitting at a distance) of a sense of superiority and dominance over the rest of humanity that could one day darkly manifest in a final statement? Colin Wilson applied Maslow's hierarchy of needs to some opportunistic criminals believing that they didn't commit crimes out of a deprivation - but a satiation, if not over satiation, of basic drives, and a sense of still lingering unfullfillment. Seems Paddock might have harbored a revenge/punishment fantasy which was not based on getting even with society (he seems to have pulled ahead monetarily & materially than most) but of continuing to show them up. The man was a stone cold numbers man in the grey flannel suit, both IRS agent & USPS letter carrier, and golden years professional gambler and so had to know despite his secured wealth, stability and accomplishments - the house always wins in the end. That might have been enough for someone who carried a sense of alienation and superiority from the rest of humanity all his life to secure that the last item on his bucket list was going to be a massacre.

[Project Willow]

Various witness accounts from video, FB, and Twitter:

Pile of spent casings outside side entrance to Tropicana hotel.

Shots fired and shattered glass entry doors, subsequent lockdown at Bellagio hotel.

Spent casings on the concert grounds.

Eye witness of shooter on the concert stage targeting VIP enclosures, shooter passed right by her.

Multiple witness accounts of overlapping fire, bullets coming from multiple directions.

Sound engineer and weapons analysis conflicting with claim of single shooter and type of weapons used.

That's just off the top of my head. Maybe all of these people are lying or confused from the fog of war, including the police who reported multiple shooters and locations on the scanner. Maybe it's rational to believe the authorities after an unexplained 24 minute gap in their clearing the "scene" and accept everything they tell us as "known knowns" and then try to concoct some sort of psychological profile of the presumed killer out of thin air. Yeah, no, I don't see anything rational in that at all. Of all the potential intel op mass events, this is the most bald faced I have ever seen. These are the shaky grounds where fear takes over and rationality flies out the window, one way or another.

[Project Willow]

Watch the whole video.

Guest, "Can we have a discount because there was a shooting last night and we were on lockdown and didn't get much sleep?" Clerk, "There was no shooting at the Bellagio last night." Guest, "Well I have this video I shot of it." Clerk, "Just a moment..." hands them a receipt no payment due.

[mentalgongfu2]

I admit I didn't watch the whole video. I skipped around. I won't dedicate 48 minutes to something unless I have good reason. I watched enough to gather the things quoted in the above post are not shown on the video, nor is the video of the shooting - so I assume it is a story the witness tells. If this person has a video of the hotel on lockdown etc., they should share it instead of just using it for free rooms.

Edit: Correction, the interview subject does show a cellphone video someone else took that shows people running around and purports to include gunshot sounds. I can discern nothing from it.

[identity]

Just watched the video. So, "seven shooters at seven different hotels" (according to Aria hotel security, as reported to the interviewee). Doing a web search for "seven shooters," I found this:

Lou Minati | October 6, 2017 at 7:12 am | Reply
Apparently, there were up to seven shooters, which would explain the cryptic comment by the Hispanic woman 45 minutes before the shooting at the concert that “They’re everywhere”. Here’s a Facebook post from someone who was at another hotel (the Vdara) and a link (while it lasts) to a video that was made at the Bellagio:

So here goes…. Especially to those of you saying to stop talking about this, stop making assumptions etc.
Call me crazy, call me dramatic, call me whatever you want. I’m posting this for those of us who were on the strip Sunday night, who know what we saw and what we were told by police officers, security guards, and even the local news when all of this madness started. And I am posting this in hopes of informing others who have believed everything they’ve seen on the news. If while leaving the Cosmopolitan, we had been told there was one shooting at the Mandalay Bay, Anthony and I would have not been worried for our lives and we would have continued to go out, knowing we weren’t headed to that particular area of the strip. But that’s not what we were told. We were told that there were 7 confirmed shooters, and confirmed deaths at multiple hotels. Including Bellagio, the Aria and New York New York. Being told this by a security guard, who then told us to go to the third floor for safety. However, Anthony says, “No Rikki. This is a very popular hotel, I don’t feel like the third floor of this popular hotel in public is the safest place. We’re going to try and get out of here right now.” Running back to our hotel next door, Vdara, we are told once again by police/security checking our id and room key, “yes multiple hotels effected. Go to your room and do not leave.” We then get to the room, immediately turn on the news and start watching out of our windows to figure out what is going on. The news also states, live, that the Bellagio had been effected and there was one confirmed death.
Now… skip ahead about an hour. The news is no longer stating anything about the other hotels effected. They say it is one person. Every bit of info that was being initially given to us was disappearing. We could physically see from our window view, fire alarms going off at the cosmopolitan, and multiple cop cars and ambulances pulling up there as well. We wanted more information about what was happening at these other hotels right next to us, and we weren’t getting it. And we still aren’t.
Monday morning I am of course telling my friends and family about our experience, and I was starting to really feel like I was crazy. Everyone was telling me there was only one shooter, and I just couldn’t understand what I had seen. Finally, other people like myself started speaking out. I was relieved to know that I wasn’t crazy, but now just as confused as to why the media is trying to hide this information. There are now videos and statements popping up all over the web, showing proof of other shooters and other effected hotels.
Why are they trying to hide this?! If for no other reason, think about being a family member of the others who died or were injured at these other hotels. They deserve the respect, and the truth as to what happened to their loved ones.
Now, can we please stop talking about Gun Control for just a few minutes, and figure out what is really going on here? Figure out the real motive of this incident, and inform people of the truth. Laws can be put in place for anything and everything. There will always be people who break them. And especially with all of the technology we have now days, it is not very hard to find anything you want. Whether it’s an illegal weapon, drugs, anything. Laws will always be broken. So let’s stop pretending this incident wouldn’t have happened if more laws were in place, but instead demand the truth about what really happened that night, and why? Don’t be so naive.

[Elvis]

Watch the whole video.

Guest, "Can we have a discount because there was a shooting last night and we were on lockdown and didn't get much sleep?" Clerk, "There was no shooting at the Bellagio last night." Guest, "Well I have this video I shot of it." Clerk, "Just a moment..." hands them a receipt no payment due.

I watched the whole video.

This rather changes everything, doesn't it?


IAWIA, the woman's video is on YouTube, I saw it on some wacked YT channel. It doesn't show shooting but it shows the Ballagio under lockdown in the aftermath.


General question: did the supposed woman who was supposedly led away by security after supposedly saying, "You're all going to die" also say, "They're everywhere"?

[Project Willow]

Here's a link to the woman's video of the Bellagio lockdown:

https://www.facebook.com/rseidenfeld/videos/10210848093023337/?hc_location=ufi

I thought the after interview was powerful in that it speaks to how people are so easily cowed after surviving an event like that, too afraid to post their own stories and pictures under their real names, afraid they'll lose their jobs, and the gaslighting by the hotel employee, and the reporter whose editor won't let the story through. That's how it's done. You don't have to threaten each and every victim to keep them quiet, just show them how much power you wield through ordinary systems of authority, and people comply. I've read more than one witness saying they even began to doubt their own lived experience.

[stickdog99]

We seem to all be agreed there is the smell of spook about him.
We may differ on the general incidence of people who'd be willing to stick a machine gun or other set of weapons to a crowd for the kicks or sense of vendetta or sense of achievement (given that mass killers have a league tote-board and celebrity, etc.). I would never think people with this tendency could be a majority, or just anyone, but enough out there fantasizing about doing it that given the means and the right stressors cases who actually execute will appear on a regular basis. Do I see that in him based on what we know? Not necessarily yet, but the thing that happened, happened, and Paddock as the shooter remains the far more plausible explanation for the available known knowns of this case (few, other than the carnage) than the alternate scenarios forwarded.
As for him having confederates, open question.

Yup. Much has been made of his iconoclastic bank robbing daddy but one wonders how much that might have been a/the contributing influence (if not directly day to day, then symbolically always transmitting at a distance) of a sense of superiority and dominance over the rest of humanity that could one day darkly manifest in a final statement? Colin Wilson applied Maslow's hierarchy of needs to some opportunistic criminals believing that they didn't commit crimes out of a deprivation - but a satiation, if not over satiation, of basic drives, and a sense of still lingering unfullfillment. Seems Paddock might have harbored a revenge/punishment fantasy which was not based on getting even with society (he seems to have pulled ahead monetarily & materially than most) but of continuing to show them up. The man was a stone cold numbers man in the grey flannel suit, both IRS agent & USPS letter carrier, and golden years professional gambler and so had to know despite his secured wealth, stability and accomplishments - the house always wins in the end. That might have been enough for someone who carried a sense of alienation and superiority from the rest of humanity all his life to secure that the last item on his bucket list was going to be a massacre.

The fact that mass media has manged to convince some of us that senseless mass murder and suicide is a credible entry on the "bucket list" of a comfortable, well adjusted senior citizen concerns me.

Name all the other senior citizen mass shooters who killed scores of people for no reason then offed themselves. You seem to believe that this happens all the time, so surely you can point out numerous previous examples of this highly understandable and dissectable behavior pattern.

[stickdog99]

Various witness accounts from video, FB, and Twitter:

Pile of spent casings outside side entrance to Tropicana hotel.

Shots fired and shattered glass entry doors, subsequent lockdown at Bellagio hotel.

Spent casings on the concert grounds.

Eye witness of shooter on the concert stage targeting VIP enclosures, shooter passed right by her.

Multiple witness accounts of overlapping fire, bullets coming from multiple directions.

Sound engineer and weapons analysis conflicting with claim of single shooter and type of weapons used.

That's just off the top of my head. Maybe all of these people are lying or confused from the fog of war, including the police who reported multiple shooters and locations on the scanner. Maybe it's rational to believe the authorities after an unexplained 24 minute gap in their clearing the "scene" and accept everything they tell us as "known knowns" and then try to concoct some sort of psychological profile of the presumed killer out of thin air. Yeah, no, I don't see anything rational in that at all. Of all the potential intel op mass events, this is the most bald faced I have ever seen. These are the shaky grounds where fear takes over and rationality flies out the window, one way or another.

Yeah, but none of these things were reported on CNN, so they obviously didn't happen. Right?

[nashvillebrook]

nashvillebrook wrote,

ETA — even if the shooter acted alone, with no larger political intent, that doesn’t mean that his actions won’t be used politically to increase tension. <— might be the biggest thing bothering me about this.

Seeking relevancy, our politicians will leap at any opportunity to proclaim their significance by passing insignificant, ineffective legislation. Applause, please.

Sure, but that’s not what I’m getting at — and I doubt that any legislation will follow this. It’s already been all but forgotten as far as Washington is concerned (“calm before the storm,” etc). Beyond limiting purchase of bump stocks, there’s no discussion of any relevant legislation.

Rather it’s that any of the scenarios following from a conspiracy involving the shooter-as-operative, are just as likely if he was just some crazy dude. Sirhan Sirhan was cast as just a crazy dude. Same with Berkowitz. The effects left in their wake — rapid cultural transformation — were the same.

[Heaven Swan]

/

I'm still gathering info and evidence and not sure what I think happened, Embedded in the above video is the video Bellaggio witness Renee made on the night of the shooting.

Just using some common sense here--
The people storming the Bellagio 30-45 minutes after the shooting of the concert-goers could have been people running from the concert seeking refuge. That people rushed into the lobby proves nothing and the video shows a relatively calm (under the circumstances) hotel in lockdown.



The receipt with a large room service order that people are using to claim the shooter wasn't alone in the room is sketchy proof as well. To me the food order looks like it could be a meal for one with drinks and a snack for later. There are reports of a room service waiter who says he was creeped out at having served Paddock. The waiter mentions only Paddock and no one else being in the room. That the receipt says 2 diners could be an error.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... sacre.html