The OTO & The CIA -- Ordis Templis Intelligentis

[OP ED]

I should point out that I really have known personally some of really, really bad people from this milieu. I have seen and experienced some things that I can not speak about here. However, I will say that the question of morality in regards to some of these people is not petty, not an abstraction, and is very, very important indeed...

if you're discussing specific peoples, most certainly. I'm sure that many here have encountered the sort you're describing.

i'm merely weary in general of the broad strokes in regards to lots of conflated groups of many many people.

a lot of the material in this thread comes across as broad smears of the guilt-by-very-tenuous-association kind that gives "conspiracy theorists" a bad name among anyone with access to google.

this is counter productive for anyone who wishes to narrow the focus on actual ongoing perpetrations and abuses. IMO.

...
i left alex constantine's article alone though. way too much wrong with it for me to even try right now. maybe in a few weeks when i have more time. there's too much i'd have to fact check, but i can say that there is enough obvious superficial obfuscation there that it taints my perception of the parts i'm unsure of.

....

[American Dream]

I said it before, and I'll repeat it again here:

It's like a lot of civil liberties issues. Waving the banner of an ideology that is not supported by all should not be considered a crime. Doing really bad things to other people should be.

Thus it is with the Process Church, the Temple of Set, the various Thelemic factions and the like. The same should hold true for any Christian Church, Jewish Synagogue, Islamic Mosque, and et cetera.

There seems to be more than a question of freedom if children are being abused, coercive mind control is being practiced, even more so if animals and humans are being tortured and/or killed.

[8bitagent]

I have two friends in the OTO here in California. The OTO has open nights, and the people Ive met are your average gamer loving fun laid back dudes into the occational pot session or road trip.

However I am aware that there has been some violence associated with members of the OTO, acting in gang like behavior. I think youll find that with any sort of group. I know of an incident where OTO members in the 90's broke someone's back, and others where former members have been threatened. Im guessing "irregular lodges".

Whats interesting is that Sirhan Sirhan was a devoted Rosicrucian, and the documentary RFK Must Die hints that it was here that the CIA might have recruited him.

One thing that is troubling, are the link between some occult groups/philosophers and racist ideologies. The Nazis of course being the most extreme example, but the occult-fascist link seems almost like peanut butter and jelly. Blavatsky, of whom Ghandi himself was a strong theosophist adept of, wrote of pretty racist views.

But you look at all these "secret orders"...and they naturally seem to have ties to intelligence agencies now and then.

P2: Gladio
Skull and Bones: CIA's Porter Goss
Bohemian Grove: birthplace of the atom bomb project
Order of the Black Hand: Used to initiate WW2
Thule Society: Nazis

[American Dream]

And of course many, many organizations that may be compromised in some way, having some connection to people who do bad things, do not necessarily include all of their members in that kind of stuff. This would hold true of Freemasons, Catholics, Thelemites, and others...

[OP ED]

indeed. that was my point.

in fact, i'd suggest that in these cases it isn't the organization that is "compromised" merely the specific criminals in question.

i would imagine that it is actually rather rare for an entire organization to engage in deep crime, unless it was specifically created to do so (P2's reorganization comes to mind) and that is quite logical as any organization that had thousands of members and did such and such openly would likely not last very long. Which is to say, it would defeat the entire purpose of criminal secrecy to begin with.

[American Dream]

VERY GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS-MAY BE TRIGGERING TO ABUSE SURVIVORS

I am reading some very negative comments about Crowley in another thread. Some of the criticisms include: that he was an anti-Semitic junkie, that he wrote poems extolling the mystic virtues of the buttocks of the young boys boys he liked to sexually exploit in Cairo, that his "magick" included the raping of goats and slitting their throat at climax.

It would be great to hear a response from those who have defended the life and work of Crowley. Do you think these charges are untrue or misunderstood? If so, why?

[OP ED]

VERY GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS-MAY BE TRIGGERING TO ABUSE SURVIVORS

I am reading some very negative comments about Crowley in another thread. Some of the criticisms include: that he was an anti-Semitic junkie, that he wrote poems extolling the mystic virtues of the buttocks of the young boys boys he liked to sexually exploit in Cairo, that his "magick" included the raping of goats and slitting their throat at climax.

It would be great to hear a response from those who have defended the life and work of Crowley. Do you think these charges are untrue or misunderstood? If so, why?

yes. because most of them are?

[what kind of smeary question is that btw? --- also citation needed]

didn't i just spend several days doing this in another thread?

raping goats. jesus.

i think you need to get a grip, AD, you're repeating nonsense.

[American Dream]

Only have a second- the charges were laid in the comments thread here:

http://www.realitysandwich.com/great_beast_was_here

Would love to hear clear and specific responses to the criticisms and allegations.

[OP ED]

nope. their criticisms are largely dealt with in the comments as they should've been. with either derision or a challenge to produce citations.

nonsense is what is, and i'm not inclined to expend my energies answering stupid questions and allegations that are little more than tawdry gossip from people who appear to have heard of Aleister Crowley on the internet.

so, um, no. feel free to waste your own time.

[American Dream]

POSSIBLY TRIGGERING TO ABUSE SURVIVORS


Here's some things a quick Internet search turned up on the Crowley allegations:

According to one source, Crowley resided in the Abbey of Thelema near Cefalu Sicily, and revived ancient Dionysian ceremonies. During a 1921 ritual, he induced a he-goat to copulate with his mistress, then slit the animal’s throat at the moment of orgasm.
http://skunks.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/ ... -thelema33°-fringe-mason-who-knew-about-human-sacrifice/

[Crowley] was also accused for the death of one of his disciples when after a goat-sacrifice he made him drink the blood of the animal. In the following days the disciple died. Post mortem showed that the cause of death wasn't by blood consumption but malaria.
www.squidoo.com/Aleister_Crowley

About his writing material with extreme sexual content, here is one citation:
[Crowley's book White Stains has 36 poems] describing "Th'extreme of pleasure and the worst of pain" via the major variations of buggery, pederasty, heterosexual sodomy, fellatio, cunnilingus, rimming, rape, sapphism, impotence, bestiality, coprophilia and necrophila. It is the poetic equivalent of Krafft-Ebing's sexological study Psychopathia Sexualis.
www.rictornorton.co.uk/crowley.htm

With regards to anti-Semitism, here is one fairly extensive essay that I found: Aleister Crowley: A Legacy of Racism and Nationalism (Racism, Gender-bias, and Other Forms of Bigotry in the Writings of Aleister Crowley).


As to Crowley being a long-term and very serious junkie, there really isn't any doubt about that, is there?

[OP ED]

POSSIBLY TRIGGERING TO ABUSE SURVIVORS


Here's some things a quick Internet search turned up on the Crowley allegations:

OP ED's note: quick internet searches are not always reliable. i'm sure you already knew that though.

i can talk to some of this, but i'm really not interested in doing stupid human tricks for days for your entertainment.

According to one source, Crowley resided in the Abbey of Thelema near Cefalu Sicily, and revived ancient Dionysian ceremonies. During a 1921 ritual, he induced a he-goat to copulate with his mistress, then slit the animal’s throat at the moment of orgasm.
http://skunks.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/ ... -thelema33°-fringe-mason-who-knew-about-human-sacrifice/

a bit of conflation. it was a Set as Khem ritual and neither the goat nor the mistress would comply, and Crow didn't want to fuck it himself, so he just killed the goat and copulated with his mistress instead. She seems to have made them both take a bath first.

"goat raping"

note in Crowley's own journals, he lists the goat's non-consent along with that of his mistress as being among the reasons he was forced to copulate with her himself. so no goat raping. he did kill it though, in one of the traditional methods of killing goats. this is not something i personally find all that shocking, but of course i had lamb for lunch.

[Crowley] was also accused for the death of one of his disciples when after a goat-sacrifice he made him drink the blood of the animal. In the following days the disciple died. Post mortem showed that the cause of death wasn't by blood consumption but malaria.
www.squidoo.com/Aleister_Crowley

this appears to be a conflation of the above story and the "cat sacrafice" story that was dissected in the other thread.

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... hp?t=23775

it doesn't cite any hard references so i cannot say that for certain.

About his writing material with extreme sexual content, here is one citation:
[Crowley's book White Stains has 36 poems] describing "Th'extreme of pleasure and the worst of pain" via the major variations of buggery, pederasty, heterosexual sodomy, fellatio, cunnilingus, rimming, rape, sapphism, impotence, bestiality, coprophilia and necrophila. It is the poetic equivalent of Krafft-Ebing's sexological study Psychopathia Sexualis.
www.rictornorton.co.uk/crowley.htm

indeed. "extreme sexual content"... you should see what you can find by doing a quick google search on that. i've seen some stuff that'd make old Crow blush. Personally i'm rather fond of White Stains.

it is like Sade doing the Song of Songs.

which is to say that most of it is remarkably boring by modern internet porn standards.

With regards to anti-Semitism, here is one fairly extensive essay that I found: Aleister Crowley: A Legacy of Racism and Nationalism (Racism, Gender-bias, and Other Forms of Bigotry in the Writings of Aleister Crowley).

crowley was racist. and misogynist. also generally maladjusted with several personality disorders.

of course, some of the later examples cited by this fella did just have me giggling, so thanks AD. In particular his citation of the now hard-to-find-except-in-anti-crowley-literature-favorite from 777 where Crowley describes his belief in the Jooz-drinking-Blood-Fiasco-Charge which as your resource himself notes was eventually removed from 777 by one Israel Regardie [a jew, in case his name didn't give him away and in case we're jew counting, btw] who was afraid people wouldn't get it and it would give people the wrong idea about Crowley's beliefs. Like most of 777, it is tongue in cheek. As Regardie himself has noted elsewhere, it was actually a twisted compliment from Crowley's POV, where in Thelema these "blood rites" are code for sex magick, which the Beast was crediting certain Jew-Types with having knowledge of. [his whole jew speech in 777 is therefore a colossal sex joke]


which as i said, doesn't mean he isn't as racist as the very worst of his Victorian sort, just that as with any other subject he dealt with, much of his material isn't meant to be read literally.

As to Crowley being a long-term and very serious junkie, there really isn't any doubt about that, is there?

no. but it you reflected on it for a moment or two, you'd realize that calling someone a "junkie" is just a slur and that even Rupert Murdoch's channels run television ads to spread the generally accepted scientific knowledge that drug addiction is an illness that requires treatment.

also, if you look at Uncle Al's own writings, you'll see he was himself very much aware of his status as a "junkie", although the term wasn't in vogue yet. It occupied a significant portion of his life from the beginnings of his addictions, and was a source of constant physical and spiritual struggle for him.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Raoul Loveday

In 1923, a 23-year-old Oxford undergraduate by the name of Raoul Loveday (or Frederick Charles Loveday) died at the abbey. His wife, Betty May, variously blamed the death on his participation in one of Crowley's rituals (allegedly incorporating the consumption of the blood of a sacrificed cat) or the more probable diagnosis of acute enteric fever contracted by drinking from a mountain spring. (Crowley had warned the couple against drinking the water, as reported in biographies by Lawrence Sutin, Richard Kaczynski and others.) When May returned to London, she gave an interview to a tabloid paper. The Sunday Express included her story in its ongoing attacks on Crowley. With these and similar rumors about activities at Thelema in mind, Mussolini's government demanded that Crowley leave the country in 1923.[4] After Crowley's departure, the Abbey of Thelema was eventually abandoned and local residents whitewashed over Crowley's murals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_of_Thelema

I know its wiki, but I first read that reason for Loveday's death back in the 80s I think. Same with the code words for sex magic. If you are unsure try it. (The sex magic not the baby sacrificing.)

Crowley was a flawed human sure, no one who is reading this is any less flawed tho, and he was an original - given the culture he came from he could have been a lot worse.

Calling someone a junkie may be a slur, but junkies are a pain in the backside. They are possessed by scag.

[OP ED]

hello joe.

yes, i referenced Betty May's account in the other thread.

(i'm told her letters will eventually be part of thee google, btw)

Crowley was a pain in the backside in more ways than one. I just find the name calling aspect of it a little dull and time wasting really. As if somehow a person being on drugs and still writing useful stuff is some sort of new outrageous idea or something.

it certainly isn't relevant as to whether or not he was involved in baby eating and it doesn't inform us at all about his organizations' involvement with various intelligence agencies both before and after his death.
[most of the relevant details in this case are after]

[cptmarginal]

Whats interesting is that Sirhan Sirhan was a devoted Rosicrucian, and the documentary RFK Must Die hints that it was here that the CIA might have recruited him.

An interesting story, that one (I'll just post from memory rather than find sources). According to investigations of Sirhan's history, there's a time period where his actions and whereabouts simply can't be accounted for. He disappeared from quiet life at home with his parents and family with no explanation, and came back some weeks later obsessed with the occult (which his family said were all very uncharacteristic actions).

The Rosicrucian-style group you are referring to is the AMORC, who have their own links to the topic of this thread, erroneous or not. They used to take out ads in the back of magazines:

[American Dream]

Woody Allen on the San Jose Rosicrucians, from the film Annie Hall:

"I can't get with any religion that advertises in Popular Mechanics."