Project Or(e) Inquisition?

[theeKultleeder]

Why sink down to that same bestial level?

Sounds like denying human emotions and instincts.

Here let me help. If I happened in on someone who was abusing any of my young children I'd crush his/her skull with the nearest baseball bat. No hesitation, no remorse.

To say that I would "hate" that person is too clinical and wouldn't touch upon the depths of hostility I would have for such an individual.

[/quote]

Well, I think I understand it at that level. The instinct to protect.

The hostility I think is the other side of this particular coin. In a moment of defense, it serves its purpose. Carried around chronically, it becomes an unhealthy condition.

Don't you think I feel just as disturbed as anyone else in following the constant discussions of pedophilia on this board? It's that sense of disgust in my gut that prompts me to say to myself "waitaminnit, let's look at this rationally."

Now we have people who come out in the strongest way in denying such a thing as "moral panics" exist. I think they do exist, and I think that automatically assuming the worst is the beginnings of one.

Pedophilia disturbs me, but so does a blatant and gleeful expression of homicidal desire, and the raising of revenge to something respectable.

[theeKultleeder]

I feel something is wrong when victims' advocates appear so hateful and hell-bent.

Have at least one child of your own and see if your flippancy towards sexual predators of children endures.

How have I been flip? My response to 8bit's disgusting pedo jokes about republicans, or his/her fanciful little two liners about sacrificing turkeys and children underneath Disney? AND 8bit ADMITS it is for "political punch."

Who is more flip there? Huh? And who does more damage?

[theeKultleeder]

.

tKl,
Are you intimating that kiddie-fiddling is OK?

I ask because you have positioned me at a far extreme. That's a rhetorical device, used when trying to "win" an argument.

Are you trying to "champion" kiddie-fiddlers, while all the while denying any such thing?

No.

And I didn't mean to "position" you with Vachss. Besides, he is a respected figure and has done a lot for children.

Read his wiki.

I just wanted to illustrate the dark side of victim's advocacy. I don't think Vachss goes around knocking predators off, anyway. There are laws against that.

I know, I watch Law and Order: Special Victims Unit. (I've come to appreciate it) And even the detectives on that show don't display as much murderous passion for their jobs, though they do get the bad guys.

[Et in Arcadia ego]

How have I been flip? My response to 8bit's disgusting pedo jokes about republicans, or his/her fanciful little two liners about sacrificing turkeys and children underneath Disney? AND 8bit ADMITS it is for "political punch."

Who is more flip there? Huh? And who does more damage?

While that joke was in bad taste indeed, 8bit has nothing to do with the very bad impression you're fostering in this thread.

[theeKultleeder]

How have I been flip? My response to 8bit's disgusting pedo jokes about republicans, or his/her fanciful little two liners about sacrificing turkeys and children underneath Disney? AND 8bit ADMITS it is for "political punch."

Who is more flip there? Huh? And who does more damage?

While that joke was in bad taste indeed, 8bit has nothing to do with the very bad impression you're fostering in this thread.

And I don't have anything to do with it, either.

Go to the OP, you'll see I was asking for help in determining if this "inquisition21" website is in fact a pedophile advocacy group or not.

I googled a few names on there. Betty Price is one. She tries to bring about a state of peace between victims and abusers. She's controversial, but I have to wonder whether or not she's doing a good thing. Of course, victims' advocates absolutely hate her. I found plenty of material supporting this assertion.

So, maybe google Betty price, and tell me what you think about her. Actually, please do that. This thread wasn't meant to be about me, it was meant to be about these issues.




The worst thing about questioning conspiracy theories is that the very act of questioning makes you part of the conspiracy.


And Et, forgive me so we can be friends again, okay?

[theeKultleeder]

.

tKl,
Are you intimating that kiddie-fiddling is OK?

Good; I'm not the only person who's gotten that impression..

Oh shit. I've started a moral panic about myself.

At least it illustrates my point exactly.

[theeKultleeder]

Fiddle About

"Do you think it's alright to leave the boy with uncle Ernie?"

"You won't shite as I fiddle abite."

[blanc]

tkl any 'presumptions' I had regarding your support for downloaders was based on your words above in this thread. Describing them as 'poor slobs', and the police op aimed at putting them behind bars where they can no longer so easily arrange and pay for abuse of children for amusement as a witch hunt is er.... misguided.
as for advocating a state of peace between victims and abusers, I believe that the only person who can choose to forgive a wrong committed against them is the person wronged, and that anyone who 'advocates' that they do so, who promulgates 'forgive and forget' for the harm OTHERS have suffered is out of line. (One reason why I could not claim to be Christian I guess.) It goes for those who maintain that there should be no prosecution of nazis or war criminals who have harmed, not them, but someone else, as well as those who would like to avoid confronting the obligations of society to provide justice for wrongs done to its most helpless citizens. I have tried to avoid saying what I fantasise about doing to those who harmed those I loved, and to separate it from the question of bringing abusers to courts, but understand and empathise with the reactions of others to threats to their children. We live in times where courts do not bring justice to the aid of the vast majority of those abused, and do it yourself justice does not lose its attractiveness as a solution to many injustices, of which this is one example. I was not surprised, as you apparently were, when ET asked the question which was on my mind. So far you have fairly consistently taken up most of the positions used by pro paedophile advocacy to undermine efforts to enforce the law. The testimony of those abused you have seemed to try to demonstrate as flawed, by faffing around with the FMS argument, and now the very concrete evidence of credit card transactions linked to purchase of paedophile porn is a waste of time, and the police op a witch hunt. The age of consent issue you fudged with wishy washy statements about disparity of ages, and relativism over the use of the word 'child'.
I'm as aware as anyone of the fear of misuse of prosecution and fabrication of evidence, probably more so than many here as I have been threatened with that process.
Be clear about what you want to say please TKL, then we won't misunderstand your motives.

anti, jail-baiting, 'nother issue, not really linked to provision of paedophile porn, except in so far as children controlled by criminal gangs who are used for the one activity, can also be used for the other activity, and yes, I'm aware of it, see Louf's testimony for one example we can talk about online. downloaders of paedophile porn in the main know what they are paying for, and make the choice.

[Jeff]

I googled a few names on there. Betty Price is one. She tries to bring about a state of peace between victims and abusers. She's controversial, but I have to wonder whether or not she's doing a good thing. Of course, victims' advocates absolutely hate her.

Page's husband is a convicted sex offender and his victim was his daughter. Not surprised to see she was also a child victim of abuse, and apparently she's happy she didn't say anything about it.

Be clear about what you want to say please TKL, then we won't misunderstand your motives.

Please do.

[theeKultleeder]

Okay.

I'm sick and tired of seeing "FMSF success" every single day.

I'm sick of "there's no such thing as moral panic."

I'm sick of seeing victims politicized.

I'm sick of 8bit agents bizarre and disturbing CONSTANT references to child abuse, admittedly for "political punch."

I'm sick of this thread.

THE FACT THAT THIS THREAD TURNED INTO ME DEFENDING ACCUSATIONS FROM YOU PEOPLE IS WHAT? A self fulfilling prophecy?

How come no one has bothered to address any of the questions raised in the OP, except antaristo on the first page.

How about antiaristo turning around to echo et in Arcadia ego's IRRESPONSIBLE accusations when I used Andrew Vachss to illustrate what I feel is a real problem... is it because antiaristo recognized he didn't want to be associated with such a passionately homicidal sentiment?

And how about that - don't you think I feel a deep and justified ANGER for being accused of such an ugly thing? Yeah, that's right asshole - you didn't just hurt my feelings, you went way beyond that.

Oh yeah, you moral cowards, how about that? How about using your fucking brains for a change and thinking this through before you point your fingers - what end would any of these alleged nefarious motives serve? What the fuck do you think I'm trying to do? Gain converts? Convince you all that it's okey-dokey?

The fact that you, Jeff, and you, et in Arcadia EGO can read my words for a year and can't figure out that I am a moral being who has just as much humanity and good sense as you, well, what does that say? Do you really think that someone who at least appears to be concerned about people treating each other right and who tries to have a consistent message of "stop hurting each other" - do you think any reasonably sane person with such a demonstrable record would then come along and and violate every principle of good sense, humanity, and morality?

Think about it - what would you say if i started a thread that went "Cancer is Cool." Yeah, Ima gonna do that. I'm going to try to defend cancer - turn the suffering and devastation caused by cancer into a good thing. Sounds silly right?

Well, that's what you have been accusing me of doing on this thread.

All your ignorant questions have already been answered - on PAGE ONE. Go ahead and take a look Jeff. Take another look, EGO.

My God.

[theeKultleeder]

I was not surprised, as you apparently were, when ET asked the question which was on my mind. So far you have fairly consistently taken up most of the positions used by pro paedophile advocacy to undermine efforts to enforce the law.

I didn't know that. What are my positions, anyway? Everyone else seems to know that so much better than me.

By the way - moral panics do exist. So do falsely remembered memories. And false convictions.

FREE THE WEST MEMPHIS THREE


The testimony of those abused you have seemed to try to demonstrate as flawed, by faffing around with the FMS argument, and now the very concrete evidence of credit card transactions linked to purchase of paedophile porn is a waste of time, and the police op a witch hunt.


I think its fairly obvious the Ore thing was a snafu - fubar - and hopefully they will learn to conduct a more meaningful dragnet in the future. And notice how you try to undermine any sense of fair play by associating me with a discredited organization. Not fair. There are cases of clearly wrong convictions. That's not fair either.

The age of consent issue you fudged with wishy washy statements about disparity of ages, and relativism over the use of the word 'child'.

Eh. Now you are just putting words in my mouth. Is it because I criticized your "x is a x is a x" formula? Here in Florida we had a guy arrested for statutory rape and put on the Offender register because he turned 18 after having dated his girlfriend who was two years younger. He slept with her in the girl's mother's house. Do you really think something like that is at all useful or even makes any sense?


I'm as aware as anyone of the fear of misuse of prosecution and fabrication of evidence, probably more so than many here as I have been threatened with that process.

Okay. And now I'm acutely aware of the strong feelings and irrationality people have about this issue.

Be clear about what you want to say please TKL, then we won't misunderstand your motives.

I tried. This has degenerated into a discussion about me. Oh well.

So, okay:

Child abuse is bad. People shouldn't do it. If people are caught doing it, they should be punished.

People have issues with sexuality in general. Probably a lot of sexual dysfunction (like pedophilia) could be avoided or reduced if sexual issues were addressed with less raw emotion and more rational understanding.

The feelings stirred up by discussions like these, as well as repressed or shame-producing sexual energies are easily channeled for bad purposes. Like in fundamentalist religions where people blow themselves up. Or in fascist societies, were people blow other people up.

[theeKultleeder]

I googled a few names on there. Betty Price is one. She tries to bring about a state of peace between victims and abusers. She's controversial, but I have to wonder whether or not she's doing a good thing. Of course, victims' advocates absolutely hate her.

Page's husband is a convicted sex offender and his victim was his daughter. Not surprised to see she was also a child victim of abuse, and apparently she's happy she didn't say anything about it.

Okay thanks. Those people are weirder than I gathered. The other blog I found used much stronger language, so I believed it less.

[Et in Arcadia ego]

Are we all done here?

[theeKultleeder]

Are we all done here?

Not quite. I realized what I was trying to get at with this whole exercise and I'm writing it now.

I was "tip-toeing," but not about what you thought. Post soon to arrive.

[theeKultleeder]

I think I just figured myself out. If I've been "tip-toeing" around anything, it's these points:

*False memories do exist. It's a shame that the FMSF is befouled by pedo-Underwager and (who else is bad and why?) I guess spooks. It's a shame because I think a counter-point is needed to balance what could be an over-zealous climate.

*I believe the McMartin case is not an "FMSF success" but a horrible case of satanic panic that ruined many lives. Since Religious Tolerance dot org is not credible, I'll quote the Crime Library:

In the wave of hysteria during the 1980s, hundreds of people were arrested on the suspicion of child abuse, especially people working in daycare centers. In part, this was thanks to the therapists and investigators involved in the McMartin Preschool fiasco who announced on national talk shows and to Congress that a network of well-financed satanic ritual abusers was operating secretly across the country. Despite the fact that children were being coached, even coerced, to describe outrageous stories for which there was no corroborating physical evidence, and some of their tales bordered on the preposterous, suspected adults were convicted based on this testimony alone.

*A distinction really should be made between baby-raping and pederasty. However, I don't support pederasty as something a healthy adult chooses, nor do I think it is something that should be "permitted." The consent laws on the books keep most people so inclined chasing after "barely legal" aged young adults. It seems to work out okay.

*I think some people have been victimized by pseudo-psychological therapy cults.

*I think most tales of blood-drinking baby-raping cults are the modern blood-libel. Where it does emerge as a substantiated criminal activity, I believe it is more likely to be an atavistic regression to primitive impulses than a government conspiracy or some kind of mind control program.

Interstingly enough, one of our very own, "bianothanatoi" has been bravely getting the satanic truth out over at wikipedia.
So this story gets slipped into the main article - I guess to "prove" that satanic abuse really does exist - citing this article "Child Sex Abuse Linked With Satanism: Police". But most people would recognize this case for what it is: a lawyer's defense strategy:

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 91 13:42:52 PST
From: one of our correspondants
Subject: Scout chief told to recruit boys for Satan, court told
To: spaf

PERTH, Australia, March 11 (AFP) - A self-confessed Satanist and
former scout leader claimed to have been told by a Satanic coven to
recruit young boys for devil worship, a court was told here Monday.
The claim was made as Scott Gozenton, 20, pleaded guilty in Perth
District Court to charges of sexually abusing young boys.
He was remanded for sentencing on six charges of indecently
assaulting boys under the age of 16, another 10 of indecent dealings
with males under 21 and six of having "evil designs" on boys under 16.
Defence lawyer Mark Trowell told the court that 13 Satanic covens
operating here hold bizarre sex orgies attended by parents and their
children.
In a statement of mitigation, Mr. Trowell said Mr. Gozenton had
been sexually abused for three years as a child by the caretaker at
his school.
A school friend introduced him to Satanism at the age of 14 and he
subsequently became involved in "bizarre" sexual practices which
included orgies involving men, women and their children.
Mr. Trowell said Mr. Gozenton was also instructed by his coven to
recruit more young boys to devil worship.
Satanists had been shadowing his client and attending his court
appearances, he said.
Judge Antoinette Kennedy, who will sentence Mr. Gozenton next
month, said his crimes were serious and he should be jailed.
The West Australian police child abuse unit arrested Mr. Gozenton
last year after raiding his home in the Perth suburb of Duncraig and
seizing computer printouts listing boys' names and sexual records.
The state's Scout Association said it was reviewing its
recruitment methods after the arrest.
Police interviewed as many as 300 scouts and other boys during the
investigations.


Those are the main things that I see here almost everyday that are taken as the gospel truth and after a while it starts to wear me down. So there you have it. I disagree with a lot of you here.