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Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed May 07, 2008 4:19 pm

Jeff wrote:

Then maybe it would be more constructive and less confrontational to ask not, Do you believe the Official Story? but rather something like, Do you believe there remain unanswered questions?


I've seen what happens on DU and elsewhere whenever the question is phrased that way. All the LAREDS and Nomos come rushing in, saying:

"Duh! Well, OF COURSE there are still unanswered questions! Why were the FBI and the CIA not communicating properly with each other? How come our elected leaders were asleep at the wheel? What have we learned from our mistakes on that day? ..."

Etcetera. You see what happens: the actual meat of the matter (avoided for fear of confrontation) is left entirely unaddressed, so the LAREDS and Nomos happily re-frame the issue to suit their purposes. Which leaves us exactly where we started. That's not constructive, that's a chronic waste of time.

9/11 activists used to talk about questions. Today, too often, they sound as though they have all the answers.


Sure, some of 'em. But so what? When tens of millions of people disbelieve their government, then some of them are going to talk nonsense, inevitably. That's so obvious as to be barely worth mentioning, but these days you never stop mentioning it.

And it's not the subject of this thread: One guy asking a brief, important and perfectly reasonable question, who was then shut up for it by Democratic Underground. He wasn't claiming to have any answers at all. It was DU that found his question intolerable. In this, America's biggest "left-liberal" message-board strongly resembles the corporate media, which do in fact claim to have all the answers. ("Al Qaeda snuck up on us and dunnit.")

less confrontational


It cannot possibly not be confrontational. (Which is not the same thing as saying it must be gratuitously rude or frothing-at-the-mouth.) We are talking about a crime of mass murder used as a permanent casus belli and as a justification for draconian changes to the laws of the USA. A huge number of people, perhaps even a majority of the US population, still refuses to contemplate any suggestion that their leaders were not wholly surprised by The Day That Changed The World, but in fact profited from it. In this, they resemble cult members.

So how can the topic not be confrontational? I can understand anyone who would prefer to avoid the confrontation, or to terminate it; but it is simply not avoidable or terminable without complete surrender, which is an even more frightening prospect.

And yes, I fully agree that "9/11Truth" can be a real fucking drag, no doubt about it. But it still beats 9/11False by a mile.

PS: Yesterday, 80 months on, Barack "Change" Obama was still waffling on about defending "the American people" from "the threat of Al Qaeda".Still. And he's America's Best Hope for the next four years, allegedly. So what does recent history tell us about the true size and seriousness of that threat? Millions of lives and billions of dollars still depend on a serious and honest answer to that question. We can refuse to confront the issue, or we can be sick to death of it, but it is not going to go away.
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Wed May 07, 2008 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby stickdog99 » Wed May 07, 2008 4:29 pm

Jeff wrote:Has "official story" been added to the dustbin yet?

I prefer official conspiracy theory.
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Postby Jeff » Wed May 07, 2008 4:35 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
less confrontational


It cannot possibly not be confrontational. (Which is not the same thing as saying it must be gratuitously rude or frothing-at-the-mouth.) We are talking about a crime of mass murder used as a permanent casus belli and as a justification for draconian changes to the laws of the USA. A huge number of people, perhaps even a majority of the US population, still refuses to contemplate any suggestion that their leaders were not wholly surprised by The Day That Changed The World, but in fact profited from it. In this, they resemble cult members.

So how can the topic not be confrontational? I can understand anyone who would prefer to avoid the confrontation, or to terminate it; but it is simply not avoidable or terminable without complete surrender, which is an even more frightening prospect.


I'm talking about fractious, divisive confrontation towards those who are already asking questions and should be natural allies: using mean-anything phrases like "Official Story" and binary thinking to create orthodoxies of exclusion.
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Postby nomo » Wed May 07, 2008 4:36 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:All the LAREDS and Nomos come rushing in


:roll:

You left out the Amy's.
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Postby sunny » Wed May 07, 2008 4:37 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
Jeff wrote:Has "official story" been added to the dustbin yet?

I prefer official conspiracy theory.


Me too.
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Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed May 07, 2008 4:47 pm

nomo wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:All the LAREDS and Nomos come rushing in


:roll:

You left out the Amy's.


No, I didn't. (You're telling fibs again, nomo. It's a sign of insecurity.)

Duh.


Sooooo not going there.


Nomo, did you learn all your English from MTV :D , or did you also employ a 14-year-old girl :oops: as your private tutor :lol: ?

PS: U left out "ROTFLMAO". Dude.
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Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed May 07, 2008 5:05 pm

Jeff wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:
less confrontational


...

I'm talking about fractious, divisive confrontation towards those who are already asking questions and should be natural allies:


Then we're talking at cross-purposes, because I'm talking about the likes of LARED, boloboffin, hack89, Lithos, and nomo, who are not asking any interesting questions about this interesting issue.

using mean-anything phrases like "Official Story"


The phrase "Official Story" does not "mean [just] anything"; it means the Commission reprt and the various Bush-regime statements that completed it, complemented it, or contradicted it. And you've suggested absolutely nothing to improve or replace that sometimes-indispensable and always comprehensible phrase.

binary thinking to create orthodoxies of exclusion.


No one you're arguing with here is in favour of that, Jeff. You're creating a straw man and beating it up.
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Postby Jeff » Wed May 07, 2008 5:25 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
Jeff wrote: binary thinking to create orthodoxies of exclusion.


No one you're arguing with here is in favour of that, Jeff. You're creating a straw man and beating it up.


And yet it happens. There are dozens of pages on this board for examples. For many now, "Official Story" includes or even exclusively means agnosticism re controlled demolition.

"Official Story" is jargon, and I can't know what you or anyone else mean by it unless we have some content and a definition of terms. So I'd rather do without its cudgel.
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Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed May 07, 2008 5:46 pm

"Official Story" is jargon, and I can't know what you or anyone else mean by it


Jeff, I just told you precisely what I meant by it, which is what most people mean by it:

it means the Commission report and the various Bush-regime statements that completed it, complemented it, or contradicted it.


It was also perfectly obvious that "leftofthedial" meant much the same thing when he posted his brief question at Democratic Underground. That question was banned, for preposterous reasons, by the Dem Party political cultists who run DU. You tell me that these people are "already asking themselves questions"; but they are in fact still relegating those questions to an obscure dungeon and then locking the thread. They've been doing it for six years now, as you know better than most.

Eighty months on, I don't see those people as my "natural allies"; I see them as evasive, dishonest and opportunistic petty dictators. I see them as powerful political cultists. And at a time of global collapse, I also see them as a political force only marginally less destructive than the Republican Party. You may of course disagree.
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Postby 8bitagent » Wed May 07, 2008 5:49 pm

nomo wrote:
I don't find the original question offensive at all. Naive and inconsequential, but not offensive. I'm just pointing out that invariably, the "truthers" end up throwing insults rather than debate anything substantial. We've had plenty of such threads here.


Dude, trust me I know. I consider myself an ardent 9/11 "truther"(God I hate that word...lets just say para-politicker) and I see it all the time

Im routinely chastised by "truthers" for simply saying "its not if al Qaeda exists, but who is funding and puppeteering them?"

nomo wrote:It's typical of the 9/11 "truthers" that they can't be in any thread without it devolving into a mudfest. Good on DU for locking that shit.


Yes, yes I agree that often times it gets into a "melting point", "youre a shill, wake up sheeple" thing. But so too can the "US out of Iraq!" focused people as well.


MacCruiskeen wrote:Jeff wrote:

Then maybe it would be more constructive and less confrontational to ask not, Do you believe the Official Story? but rather something like, Do you believe there remain unanswered questions?


I've seen what happens on DU and elsewhere whenever the question is phrased that way. All the LAREDS and Nomos come rushing in, saying:

"Duh! Well, OF COURSE there are still unanswered questions! Why were the FBI and the CIA not communicating properly with each other? How come our elected leaders were asleep at the wheel? What have we learned from our mistakes on that day? ..."

Etcetera. You see what happens: the actual meat of the matter (avoided for fear of confrontation) is left entirely unaddressed, so the LAREDS and Nomos happily re-frame the issue to suit their purposes. Which leaves us exactly where we started. That's not constructive, that's a chronic waste of time.

9/11 activists used to talk about questions. Today, too often, they sound as though they have all the answers.


Sure, some of 'em. But so what? When tens of millions of people disbelieve their government, then some of them are going to talk nonsense, inevitably. That's so obvious as to be barely worth mentioning, but these days you never stop mentioning it.

And it's not the subject of this thread: One guy asking a brief, important and perfectly reasonable question, who was then shut up for it by Democratic Underground. He wasn't claiming to have any answers at all. It was DU that found his question intolerable. In this, America's biggest "left-liberal" message-board strongly resembles the corporate media, which do in fact claim to have all the answers. ("Al Qaeda snuck up on us and dunnit.")


1.

The "incompetence" meme is the BIGGEST PILE of BULLSHIT, and a TOTAL insult to intelligence. People promoting incompetence/ineptitude like Ron Paul or Keith Olbermann, dont know about FBI Agents like Robert Wright or John Oneil. The Bill Clinton administration and onto Bush
were INTENTIONALLY thwarting efforts by the FBI to close in on al Qaeda, Osama, Saudi terror financiers and charities, etc.
They dont see how FBI was told to back off from flight schools. Why cant they see this?
The US government is just a puppet.

2. Isnt it sad, how the majority of frothing at the mouth "bring our troops home" anti Bush liberals HATE truthers like you and me almost as MUCH as the "evil right wingers"

Ive had some of the most meanest, insulting things hurled at me by "Bush is a terrorist" t shirt wearing types for my views on 9/11. I was at a political event in San Francisco in 2006, talking to a reporter who covered the US invasion of Afghanistan, and we were talking about the ISI...and how many feel the ISI is complicit with al Qaeda. And this guy in some Cheney is a crook t shirt or something bets in and says "Oh God, we got a conspiracy nut here...he probably thinks Jews run the world too".
I wanted to sock him in his mouth.

WHY is it so much of the elitest snobby liberal youth out there hurls the same "conspiracy theorist" libel at people that the right wing uses?

I got this SAME bullshit at a big anti war rally in Los Angeles this year.

GOD FORBID a fellow progressive as myself dares to question
the almighty Barack Obama, asking why the US is really in Afghanistan, or questioning 9/11. GOD FORBID people ask if Israel is on the right side with their actions in Lebanon and Palestine.

I almost start to agree with the right wingers who are sick of the "US Out of Iraq, Bush should be impeached" types.
Last edited by 8bitagent on Wed May 07, 2008 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 8bitagent » Wed May 07, 2008 6:01 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
Well, obviously. For instance: the worst damage was done in New York, the attacks took place on September 11th, many people were killed by falling buildings, etc., etc, etc. There are so many true statements in the Official Account that it would be very hard to list them all.


Try this on one: I fully believe al Qaeda was intimately involved in 9/11
and that al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden is directly tied to everything from WTC 1993 to the USS Cole attacks. I dont believe in Lihop, Mihop, or that Bush and Cheney did 9/11 as some new "Northwoods".
I sound like a pro official story person right?

Yet I believe 100% that al Qaeda, nor Osama, nor even any Muslims are the masterminds of any of these attacks...merely the bullet in a gun thats attached to an arm thats attached to an invisible body thats permeated
the globalist agenda in Europe and worldwide...the new world order.

I dont like the "9/11 was an inside job by the US!" meme at all...I find this
blatantly false. I see 9/11 as an NWO job, a global team effort.

Jeff wrote:
Yes or no, do you believe the Official Story? That's the way to a worthless conversation without agreement beforehand about what constitutes "Official Story." And except for the most extreme contrarians, everyone is going to find some agreement with the "Official Story." Officially, Flight 77 struck the Pentagon. Unofficially, some unnamed wealthy people became wealthier thanks to 9/11 insider trading. I believe both. So how should I answer Yes or no, do you believe the Official Story?


The official story that most people sadly believe, is that al Qaeda is an independent group and self financed group that completely masterminded under Osama and pulled off the 9/11 attacks(as well as every "Islamic terror" attack since.

Thats why I at least gotta give props to Senator Graham, who was like "no no, we got evidence of hardcore foreign governments involved...and I aint talking Iraq and Iran"

Searcher08 wrote:

It captures that so much of 9-11 was about Officials Conspiring... :)


I find many of the angry people shouting on both the left/right pro official story, and then the truther side both lack even the basic cursory knowledge of how 9/11 was put together.

Jeff wrote:Has "official story" been added to the dustbin yet?


It's funny, just for the sake of argument when debating with a liberal or conservative type arguing that "the evidence is clear that 19 al Qaeda related terrorists hijacked four planes and slammed them", I will always say
"ok, let's say that, fine. But where's the proof al Qaeda is fully independent,
fully internally financed, with Osama as the mastermind? Even the 9/11 commission says Osama wasnt the mastermind, and that they didnt even care where the money came from"

I prove complicity just in the fact Bush is covering up for Saudi and Pakistani deep involvement...shuts them up every time.
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Postby Jeff » Wed May 07, 2008 6:41 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
"Official Story" is jargon, and I can't know what you or anyone else mean by it


Jeff, I just told you precisely what I meant by it, which is what most people mean by it:

it means the Commission report and the various Bush-regime statements that completed it, complemented it, or contradicted it.


Honestly, there's not a lot of precision there.

I'm not being obtuse about this. If only one side of a conversation gets to frame the undefined parameters, it's not much of a conversation.
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Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed May 07, 2008 7:37 pm

To say what one means by something is not necessarily to define it. I can name Jacques Vallée precisely, but I cannot give you a dictionary definition of him. But of course when I say "Jacques Vallée", you still know precisely who I'm talking about. If you're in any doubt, you can always ask. ("No, I don't mean that old guy who runs the boulangerie in Marseilles.")

I can also name (quite precisely, though it takes longer than saying "Jacques Vallée") the conglomerate of implausibilities, unanswered questions, evasions, lies, truths and half-truths that constitutes the Official Account, though I cannot define it, because I don't have that kind of power. (I am not the editor-in-chief of the OED. Nor am I the President of the USA.) Yet you affect not to know what I'm talking about.

You could pull precisely the same manoeuvre whenever I say (for example) "US politics", or "parapolitics", or "Icelandic politics", or "food", or "love", or "precision". Would that be constructive? Would that be a good use of anyone's time? Maybe it would be a good use of a lexicographer's, who is at least paid to do it.

If only one side of a conversation gets to frame the undefined parameters, it's not much of a conversation.


Yes, it's extremely unfair of me to abort my free and open conversation with the US ruling class. And it's my fault that the Bush gang can't agree on their alibi or produce a coherent account between them.

Clearly, the best thing is to say nothing more about the whole affair.*

*Am I even entitled to call it an "affair", though? The term is a bit imprecise. Somebody might think I was accusing them of adultery or something.

PS Jeff, can you define "precision"? Does that word mean the same thing in all contexts? Is a precise pass in a football match precisely the same thing as a precise blueprint for a microchip or a precise proof in mathematics or the precise naming of Jacques Vallée? How much precision are we entitled to demand?

And precisely what motivates us to demand it, in any particular situation?
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Postby 2012 Countdown » Wed May 07, 2008 8:03 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
Well, clearly you should answer "No"; because you're the author of The Coincidence Theorists' Guide (and much else besides), which shows in great detail why the Official Account[s] cannot be believed. The fact that there are true and plausible elements in that Account (planes, Arabs, incompetence, the weather, etc.) does not make it any less of a lie in toto.


You mention that article by Jeff. What a masterpiece that was. At the time (when not many were daring to mention these connections and facts), it was a pretty powerful bullet point tool. I spread that sucker everywhere.


...and just to add my thoughts on the terminology issue, I take (as most everyone else I would think), that the 'official story' means simply that, the official story as told in the 9/11 Commission report. That is literally the official US government story, is it not?

Asking someone if they believe the 'official story' is nothing more than simply that, and anyone who would ask THAT question when they really mean, do you believe in lizard people is the person who is being 'imprecise', imo.
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Postby nomo » Wed May 07, 2008 8:42 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:Nomo, did you learn all your English from MTV :D , or did you also employ a 14-year-old girl :oops: as your private tutor :lol: ?


Omigod! You found me out!
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