The Book of Dead philosophers

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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby vanlose kid » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:27 pm

Wotcha' HoL.

Don't know that it's a riddle or a question. The question of life: how to live it is ethical. If there's a law, say, Thou shalt not kill ... some ask why not? We are taught to think of them as commandments that, as such, limit freedom. Why should I follow the law? and freedom is supposedly about not following any law but one's conscience (as if that were some fixed thing). Which is a misunderstanding of the sense of the word law as used in ethics with the word law as used e.g. in Law and physics.

For instance, if someone refrains from doing something because of what personal consequences he/she might suffer at the hand of the state, it is difficult to argue that he/she has behaved ethically. To uphold the law for fear of state punishment doesn't seem ethical, but rather hedonistic, or self-preserving. The same person might go ahead if they felt they could get away with it. On the other hand, say that a Law is unjust (some act being made legal or mandatory, say, usury or persecution) and one refrains from acting in accord with the Law or even going against it (as folks did who rescued Jews and other undesirables from the Reich), that seems to be an ethical act, even if illegal. In your terms, this is one individual's answer to the riddle of life. To uphold the Law out of fear of punishment is in the end hypocrisy. It is also done for the sake of appearances (this stance is all compatible with and defensible according to the theory of selfish genes or scientific hedonism/utilitarianism) and has nothing to do with ethics.

This is of course my understanding of the phrase "to live outside the law you must be honest". E.g. to live in accord with the law that forbids usury is to live outside the Law. And that is of course a choice, ultimately, and it is made whatever the consequences. This also goes with any understanding of the concepts of ethics and ethical laws. That they are self-imposed. One takes it upon oneself not to e.g., lie, kill, cheat, steal, etc., not because it is illegal in some book of Law and leads to dire consequences, or because it pays, is fun, or pleasing, but because this is how one views life, how one believes life ought to be lived. This is why many who have thought deeply on these things, Wittgenstein among them, say that there can be no science of ethics. There are no ethical facts. In ethics one stands alone as an individual (outside the--secular--Law). "Ethics is transcendental" (TLP 6.421). In ethics one can only speak for oneself. There is no (scientific-philosophical) riddle.

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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby vanlose kid » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:09 pm

@ bph:

Having viewed "The American Ruling Class" it seems to me that the main protagonists, Lapham's alters so to speak, both expressions of their broad cultural milieu, exemplify quite well what "Mortality salience within the context of The Empire" looks like. And it has very little to do with cleaving to god and country.

One expression of the fear of death is the scientific search for the prolongation of life and personal pleasure by any means necessary. This is in no way religious or patriotic. Nor does it seem to be an expression of joie de vivre. What it leads to, to my mind, is this:

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs43/i/2009/147/b/c/Grey_Alien_by_Harnois75.jpg

The pinnacle of scientific evolution: your friendly transhuman Übermensch.

I'm finding this difficult to express. What I want to get across is that Critchley's dichotomy: "Led, on the one hand, to deny the fact of death and to run headlong into the watery pleasures of forgetfulness, intoxication and the mindless accumulation of money and possessions. On the other hand, the terror of annihilation leads us blindly into a belief in the magical forms of salvation and promises of immortality offered by certain varieties of traditional religion and many New Age (and some rather old age) sophistries."

which Lapham (and you?) subscribes to is false. And that their "way out" if one can call it that isn't as clean cut as it is made to seem. For instance, the acceptance of death may just as well lead one to "run headlong into the watery pleasures of forgetfulness, intoxication and the mindless accumulation of money and possessions" as the denial of it. There is no internal relation between denial of death and hedonism, or religion for that matter. Who says that belief in the after-life necessarily quells the fear of death? And who says that facing death and drawing the breath of life from it necessarily entails that one does not become religious?

There is just so much wrong with the OP, so much shoddy thinking, although it is very well-groomed and clever, admittedly, that it leaves one wanting. It leaves one with the same feeling his mockumentary did. Cynically blasé fun and games for the post-ironic.

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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby Hammer of Los » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:55 am

...

Karma is the transcendental law.

Resolve your karma.

Then you learn to solve your riddle.

Then you attain to nirvana.

Maybe when you die you seek paranibbana and get given new riddle!

The game never ends!

...
Last edited by Hammer of Los on Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:54 am

vanlose kid » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:09 pm wrote:@ bph:

Having viewed "The American Ruling Class" it seems to me that the main protagonists, Lapham's alters so to speak, both expressions of their broad cultural milieu, exemplify quite well what "Mortality salience within the context of The Empire" looks like. And it has very little to do with cleaving to god and country.


I was taking that idea from the excerpt of the paper I posted on the first page at this link: http://cmsauthor.skidmore.edu/fye/summe ... mption.pdf

In summary, terror management theory posits that the juxtaposition of
the basic biological inclination toward self-preservation common to all living
things with the uniquely human awareness of death creates the potential
for overwhelming terror that is ameliorated through the construction and
maintenance of culture. Culture provides a sense that we live in a stable,
orderly, and meaningful universe, and it confers self-esteem through the provision
of social roles with associated standards of conduct that allow individuals
to view themselves as persons of enduring value in a world of
meaning. Consequently, people's actions are directed toward sustaining a dual
component cultural anxiety-buffer: faith in their worldviews and a sense that
they are valued components of that meaningful reality.


I think its kind of uncontroversial though and the authors support their view with a number of studies:

Second, if a cultural worldview and self-esteem protect people specifically
from death-related concerns, then reminders of mortality should lead to
the bolstering of these psychological constructs. In support of this general
hypothesis, a large body of evidence has shown that momentarily making
death salient (mortality salience), typically by asking people to think about
themselves dying, intensifies people's strivings both to protect and fortify
aspects of their worldviews and to bolster their self-esteem. The first and most
common finding has been that mortality salience increases positive reactions
to similar others or those who share cherished aspects of one's cultural worldview
and negative reactions toward those who violate cherished cultural values
or are merely different. For example, Greenberg et al. (1990; Study 1) had
Christian participants think about death or watch television and then rate
two targets who were similarly portrayed except for being either Christian or
Jewish. As predicted, although there was no difference between participants'
evaluations of the targets in the control condition, mortality salience participants
had more favorable reactions to the Christian target and less favorable
reactions to the Jewish target. In Study 3, following a mortality salience or
control induction, American participants read short essays either highly supportive
or highly critical of the American way of life and then reported their
impressions of the author. Not surprisingly, participants favored the pro-
American author over the anti-American author in the control condition;
but this tendency was exaggerated following mortality salience.



One expression of the fear of death is the scientific search for the prolongation of life and personal pleasure by any means necessary. This is in no way religious or patriotic.


I didn't mean to suggest that the only response people have to mortality salience is a retreat to their religious or patriotic beliefs. But within the context of the empire and the possibility that there are those within the military/industrial/entertainment complex with unscrupulous goals who might be interested in the effects of mortality salience/anxiety I was suggesting religiosity and patriotism would be desirably reinforced. Just speculation.

Nor does it seem to be an expression of joie de vivre.


Hedonsim is very definitely an expression of the love of life, though the "any means necessary" complicates things, since it's not the only expression of the human love of life.
What it leads to, to my mind, is this:

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs43/i/2009/147/b/c/Grey_Alien_by_Harnois75.jpg

The pinnacle of scientific evolution: your friendly transhuman Übermensch.


To be mortal and tragically short lived is human. I agree that one of the expressions of the denial of death is the search for the prolongation of life but if the transhuman ubermensch is not longer lived at least then I'd say it was a failure.

I'm finding this difficult to express. What I want to get across is that Critchley's dichotomy: "Led, on the one hand, to deny the fact of death and to run headlong into the watery pleasures of forgetfulness, intoxication and the mindless accumulation of money and possessions. On the other hand, the terror of annihilation leads us blindly into a belief in the magical forms of salvation and promises of immortality offered by certain varieties of traditional religion and many New Age (and some rather old age) sophistries."which Lapham (and you?) subscribes to is false. And that their "way out" if one can call it that isn't as clean cut as it is made to seem. For instance, the acceptance of death may just as well lead one to "run headlong into the watery pleasures of forgetfulness, intoxication and the mindless accumulation of money and possessions" as the denial of it.


It may. I believe you are right. But what does the fear and denial of death actually produce in a large part of the populace of the empire? After 9/11 we were encouraged to "go shopping", flags appeared everywhere, and I imagine the coffers of the churches got a 9/11 bounce.

There is no internal relation between denial of death and hedonism, or religion for that matter.


Internal? You mean some sort of abstraction?

Who says that belief in the after-life necessarily quells the fear of death?


Necessarily? Not I. You seem to be creating a strawman of universals.
And who says that facing death and drawing the breath of life from it necessarily entails that one does not become religious?


When Critchley writes, "the terror of annihilation leads us blindly into a belief in the magical forms of salvation and promises of immortality offered by certain varieties of traditional religion and many New Age (and some rather old age) sophistries." I don't think he means to further say by implication that facing death rather than denying it can only lead to non-religiosity.

There is just so much wrong with the OP, so much shoddy thinking, although it is very well-groomed and clever, admittedly, that it leaves one wanting. It leaves one with the same feeling his mockumentary did. Cynically blasé fun and games for the post-ironic.


I'll have to reread the OP in light of your criticisms. I am happy to have my idols and role models deconstructed.
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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby Hammer of Los » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:33 pm

...

Critchley wrote:"(T)he terror of annihilation leads us blindly into a belief in the magical forms of salvation and promises of immortality offered by certain varieties of traditional religion and many New Age (and some rather old age) sophistries."


I can speak with some authority on this thread, being a dead philosopher myself.

I suffered the philosophic death.

Maybe you know what that means.

More likely you do not.

If you go study the Manly Hall you might find out, smart boys.

In response to the Critchley quote above, I do rather wonder who he means by "us."

I have been annihilated many times and it is often, not always, terrifying.

But I get used to it ya know?

Ghost that walks, dead man walking.

As to beliefs, I don't often care to discuss such things.

It's amazing how far you can get by practising thoroughgoing agnosticism.

Maybe a few things will prove themselves to you to your complete satisfaction and you won't need to bother with beliefs or arguments at all.

...
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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby brainpanhandler » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:57 am

Hammer of Los » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:33 pm wrote:It's amazing how far you can get by practising thoroughgoing agnosticism.


Agreed, except you never really arrive anywhere if you're not willing to eventually accept some sort of base level of reality. We live in THIS reality. We may have even chosen this ignorance, but regardless it really is real. When I feel like retreating into solipsism my conscience usually returns me to all the horrible things we do to create death, misery and annihilation. Real death and annihilation.

Maybe a few things will prove themselves to you to your complete satisfaction and you won't need to bother with beliefs or arguments at all.


I've often considered starting a thread along the lines of, "What can we all agree on?" or related, "Has science ever proven anything?"
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby Hammer of Los » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:14 pm

brainpanhandler » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:57 pm wrote:
Hammer of Los » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:33 pm wrote:It's amazing how far you can get by practising thoroughgoing agnosticism.


Agreed, except you never really arrive anywhere if you're not willing to eventually accept some sort of base level of reality. We live in THIS reality. We may have even chosen this ignorance, but regardless it really is real. When I feel like retreating into solipsism my conscience usually returns me to all the horrible things we do to create death, misery and annihilation. Real death and annihilation.

Maybe a few things will prove themselves to you to your complete satisfaction and you won't need to bother with beliefs or arguments at all.


I've often considered starting a thread along the lines of, "What can we all agree on?" or related, "Has science ever proven anything?"


Life is a journey, not a destination.

There is no base reality.

Can't you learn to float?

Ignorance is real.

In a sense we are connected co solipsists.

Ven diagram consciousnesses overlapping.

Your consciousness can go inwards or outwards.

It can travel to strange places.

And connect with strange things.

To listen to your conscience is very wise.

That is the voice of your higher self.

It will teach you of compassion for all.

All are part of one consciousness, overlapping itself.

We might be able to agree to disagree.

But no, science has never nor will ever prove anything.

Many things were proven to me.

I doubt them not.

Therefore they are proven.

Indubitably.

...
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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:51 am

*

Only a Harkonnen would elevate pleasure to a principle of action.

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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby brainpanhandler » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:30 am

vanlose kid » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:51 pm wrote:*

Only a Harkonnen would elevate pleasure to a principle of action.

*


Not sure what you are referring to. Maybe my comment about hedonism?

If you are referring to anything I wrote... my mistake. I thought you wanted to have a conversation.
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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:35 pm

...

Besides which, pleasure destroys itself.

O rose thou art sick.

etc.

...
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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:13 pm

brainpanhandler » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:30 pm wrote:
vanlose kid » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:51 pm wrote:*

Only a Harkonnen would elevate pleasure to a principle of action.

*


Not sure what you are referring to. Maybe my comment about hedonism?

If you are referring to anything I wrote... my mistake. I thought you wanted to have a conversation.


@ bph, wasn't referring to anything in particular. It was more of a tag on to my previous post. That and I've just gotten to "Children of Dune" and thought that this discussion is pretty much at the root of the conflict, hence the Bene-Gesserit tone of the remark and its being about the Harkonnen. It fits. Alia succumbs to it. The pleasure (fear) principle. Which is what the Gom Jabbar/test for humanity is for. "It only kills animals..."

What is ethics? What is it to be human?

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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:14 pm

Oh, I dunno. Some seem to spend eternally charmed afterlives.
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Re: The Book of Dead philosophers

Postby brainpanhandler » Wed Jul 24, 2024 11:34 pm

Lewis H. Lapham (1935–2024)

Oh well.
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