The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby Sounder » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:11 am

You are fun C2W?

Jack riddler wrote…
Yeah, O.K., you just got at a big problem with Big Bang theory. The universe seems to be bigger than could have been achieved in the time the theory allots since the BB. This is why they've more recently come up with the [strikethrough]Ptolemaic epicycle [/strikethrough], erm, I mean device of hyperinflation, a period that supposedly happened during the first 300,000 "years" of the universe (whatever years meant back then) when everything expanded at a faster-than-light clip. Other than that there's no direct empirical evidence of this event, it explains the size problem. Anyway, on the "Scale of the Universe" graphic everything between the neutrino and the visible universal horizon has been observed empirically. The extremes are necessarily theoretical.

So then, the speed of light is no longer a universal constant? This sounds like an ad-hoc attempt to preserve the BB doctrine.


Okay, smarties, so show us what YOU think is at the extreme micro end of the scale.

Any particle is the agglutination of sub-particles that exhibit the proper combination of frequency, velocity, vector, and a cyclical balance between electro-magnetic attraction and static repulsion characteristics.

So there. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:09 am

So, c2w, your mum taught you Zeno's Paradox when you were only ten or so? And then you went and solved it?

Humph.

I was no more than four or five when my grandfather started asking me the really hard questions. For instance: If it takes a man a week to walk a fortnight, how many apples in a barrel of pears? To which the answer is: A bottle of hens' bare feet.

Those are the truly challenging ones, when the answer doesn't merely make no sense at all, but actually gives you nightmares.

Still, I do thank my granda for having taught me how to think. It's stood me in good stead all the way here to the closed ward.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:12 am

JackRiddler wrote:Okay, smarties, so show us what YOU think is at the extreme micro end of the scale.


A bottle of hens' bare feet. Obviously.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby psynapz » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:02 am

MacCruiskeen wrote:If it takes a man a week to walk a fortnight, how many apples in a barrel of pears? To which the answer is: A bottle of hens' bare feet.

Haha, I doiubt even a Finn would overstand that beast. :jumping:
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby compared2what? » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:03 am

MacCruiskeen wrote:So, c2w, your mum taught you Zeno's Paradox when you were only ten or so? And then you went and solved it?

Humph.


It was not all fun and games, believe me. I just wasn't as smart as I was supposed to be. Which was kind of conducive to a repressed but extreme state of dread, anxiety, and brutal self-abnegation most if not all of the time.

However, since that actually turns out to be exactly the attitude that can really help a young woman persevere with her self-destructive and drug-addicted chosen way of life, it was all good in the end, really. Plus, they meant well, as I said. So no resentments, no regrets. I mean, to quote from that essay down in the lounge:

I was young. I got over it.

I was no more than four or five when my grandfather started asking me the really hard questions. For instance: If it takes a man a week to walk a fortnight, how many apples in a barrel of pears? To which the answer is: A bottle of hens' bare feet.

Those are the truly challenging ones, when the answer doesn't merely make no sense at all, but actually gives you nightmares.

Still, I do thank my granda for having taught me how to think. It's stood me in good stead all the way here to the closed ward.


I envy you.

Hey, you know in this country, we say "locked ward." And that's just a note on regional usage of minor socio-etymological interest, btw. Not a criticism or correction. Early training dies hard.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby brainpanhandler » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:38 pm

compared2what? wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:And why can't I subdivide a Planck length? Who says it makes "no physical sense"? I mean if Zeno's suction cup dart is one planck length from my forehead doesn't it have to travel half a planck length before it reaches it's target?


And then it would have to travel half that remaining distance (i.e., 1/4 Planck length) and then half that (i.e., 1/8 Planck length), and so on ad infinitum. In other words, neither Zeno's nor anyone else's arrow can ever reach your forehead. Which is reassuring, but dangerously so, because of course arrows have often, in fact, reached foreheads.

Not that I understand this myself! It is all highly weird.

The Modernity of Zeno’s Paradoxes


... But deep thought actually is a very demanding pastime, and oftener a punishing one than it is rewarding, I was at least right about that much.

Oh. And also. I've never thought about it again or looked into the matter further. So I could definitely be wrong. But that's the solution to Zeno's Paradox, as I understand it. FWIW. Oo, it makes me so mad even just thinking about it, still. I mean, the nerve of that philosophy stuff. It's not the boss of me.


I was never the same after roughly the age of 10 when I discovered a copy of Will Durant's The Story of Philosophy in our attic. That very same almost crumbling now copy has found a home in just about every bathroom of every abode I 've ever lived in. Just the other day the cover finally let go of it's moorings as I was reading the section on Santayana. I felt a brief moment of regret that this paperback which had accompanied me through so much and opened so many doors for me had finally suffered this fate and would have to go naked from then on. There's really no repairing something like that and it signals the beginning of the end, but the detached cover will serve now as a bookmark. Right now in fact it is stuffed between pgs 492 and 493 so that I could transcribe the following:

Durant quotes Santayana,

"We are not asked to abolish our conception of the natural world, nor even, in our daily life, to cease to believe in it; we are to be idealists only north-nothwest, or transcendentally; when the wind is southerly we are to remain realists... I should be ashamed to countenance opinions which, when not arguing, I did not believe in. It would seem to me dishonst and cowardly to militate under other colors than those under which I live... Therefore no modern writer is altogether a philosopher in my eyes, except Spinoza... I have frankly taken nature by the hand, accepting as a rule, in my farthest speculation, the animal faith I live by from day to day. "

Scepticism and Animal Faith, pp. 192, 298, 305, 308.

It is at once a delight and a curse to go looking for Santayana quotes, probably much more the former than the latter, precisely because his distillations are so quotable.

“One of the fatalities of my life has always been that the people with whom I agree frighten me, and I frighten those with whom I naturally sympathize.”
—To Horace Kallen, 10 November 1913, The Letters of George Santayana, Book Two, 1910-1920, MIT Press, 2002

and

"Happiness is the only sanction of life; where happiness fails, existence remains a mad and lamentable experiment."
George Santayana, Life of Reason (1905) vol. 1, ch. 10

So don't get mad, get glad. Which requires:

“To be happy, even to conceive happiness, you must be reasonable or (if Nietzsche prefers the word) you must be tamed. You must have taken the measure of your powers, tasted the fruits of your passions and learned your place in the world and what things in it can really serve you. To be happy you must be wise.”
—Egotism in German Philosophy, Scribner's, 1916, p. 152

I think I probably first discovered Zeno's paradox in The Story of Philosophy and it delighted me. It made me happy to think about it and I thought about it, and still do, anytime I encounter an infinite regress. I solved it differently. I just imagine the satisfying thump of an arrow in a target. You could do the same by imagining a suction cup dart firmly stuck to my forehead, still quivering from it's impact or a diamond bullet if you prefer.

I can't help but laugh at the idea of a Planck length. It sort of reminds me of how I got through high school algebra without ever cracking a textbook, memorizing an equation or doing a moment's worth of homework. I just figured an answer to a problem to as many decimal places as I thought could possibly matter and left it at that. It drove my teachers nuts, which also delighted me.

It seems to me that infinity has to be omnidirectional and so if we do not admit some smallest unit of space then we cannot admit some largest unit of space and then everything just is. The big bang was described to me once by a physics teacher as the expansion of space at the beginning of time. He said it as though that ought to clear everything up, but of course it didn't and doesn't. I imagine that if it ever did make sense I would cease to exist in that moment, which precludes saying anything else about it.


.eloh no ton tunod no eye peeK

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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby compared2what? » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:34 pm

bph wrote:There's really no repairing something like that


There really is, actually. You have to be kind of crazy. And also to have a good magnifying drafting lamp, plus special papers, tapes and glues. And binding needles, if it's a hardcover. But it can be done.

I mean, if you're willing to have a pile of books the covers of which you've been planning to repair for years, if not decades, constantly accumulating at a much greater rate than you'll ever have the time to repair them sitting in your home, constantly looking at you with their mournful eyes, as if reproaching you for failing them. But, you know. Some people find that ego-validating.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:09 pm

c2w?:

1)
c2w? wrote:And it really didn't strike me as kind of an odd way to accommodate a child's natural need for something of an attention-and-time-occupying nature, either, at the time. That was just business as usual in my world. As I understood the general set-up, it was just the natural order of things for me often to be asked to clear some random intellectual hurdle for no very apparent reason, and it was then my job to do so. And that was just that. Besides which, in this particular case, I actually was interested by the question. Because, you know, it's interesting.


If it's any consolation, yours sounds exactly like the household I wished I'd grown up in, as I suffered what I thought were the indignities of life in a peasant-village-offshoot that had established itself as an immigrant cell in Queens, and not a single editor among my relatives. My mother warned often about the risk that reading too much would cause me headaches, although paradoxically any test grade below a 90 was cause for an interrogation allowed to end only after a quart of tears were shed. Both father and she upheld the teaching that a lack of school education had held them back, though they did well as highly dedicated workers. The path to success and money for their offspring lay therefore in academic success and post-graduate degrees of any kind - which they seemed to think came only in flavors like Doctor, Lawyer, Big Professor, Business Executive and First Greek President. (Need I tell you ours was a Dukakis household?) Of course, they also conveyed the confidence that there would be no obstacles on any path to such as me, long as I stoppped collecting funny books and avoided harm from strangers in the Jungle That Is New York, and of course I visualized myself regularly as the subject of celebratory headlines, which I can hardly fault to them alone. Further irony was I had a sense, picked up somehow by osmosis from the Anglo culture, that a classical education begins with Latin, but they declared it dead and made me take French, the language of diplomacy, which resulted in aforementioned cases of test grades below 90 and, in the end, je tout l'oublie. Auto-didacticism otherwise was encouraged and all books without pictures in them were assumed to be Good for School, which is how I got away with all that science fiction. I did read about Zeno's paradox somewhere, since I remember a competition with my brother to take steps always only halfway to the bedroom door and never get there, which always led to one of us tottering on tippy-toe at the threshold, at which point the other solved the paradox with a rough push from behind. Now you'll hate me, because one thing I did try later, when my own son was whining while I did kitchen work, was to employ Socratic questioning (from a position standing at the sink) to instill in his mind some puzzler about The Universe in the hope it would occupy him for a time, which occasionally gained his interest but never reduced the whining. I'm sure Zeno's Paradox was among these. I also considered trying to rigorously avoid allowing him to learn the earth was round and revolved around the sun, but to give him the tools of logic and scientific inquiry and guide him by way of open questions to his own personal Copernican Revolution, after which the world would belong to him. He'll no doubt give thanks one day this plan never got beyond a vague conceptual stage, given its prima facie infeasability in a city environment where we did everything to enable peer contact and did not altogether ban television.

2) Are you sure you're not Salinger, his daughter, protege, spiritual successor or such?

3)
It was not all fun and games, believe me. I just wasn't as smart as I was supposed to be. Which was kind of conducive to a repressed but extreme state of dread, anxiety, and brutal self-abnegation most if not all of the time.

However, since that actually turns out to be exactly the attitude that can really help a young woman persevere with her self-destructive and drug-addicted chosen way of life, it was all good in the end, really. Plus, they meant well, as I said. So no resentments, no regrets


I believe you. No one's as smart as they are supposed to be, let alone me. Which is kind of conducive to a repressed but extreme state of dread, anxiety, and neurotic self-exposure (of the wordy, not indecent kind) most if not all of the time. However, since that actually turns out to be another attitude that can really help a young man persevere with his self-destructive and drug-addicted chosen way of life, it was all good in the end, really. (Except nothing ever ends.)

4) (Said to MacC)
I envy you.


From our respective distances, I'm sure the feeling is mutual - triangularly, quadratically, pentahexaseptagonically and so forth. I especially envy your being smarter than me. Which has the further and involuntary consequence, in association with anyone identifying themselves as a female of roughly my age group, of making me fall hopelessly in electronically mediated love. At least for the time one is online. Please do forgive this weakness. Because I can't in good conscience sign this missive as either, Mr. Darcy or Young Brando, much as I would like. Maybe your Little Brother in the Glass Family.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:14 pm

Sounder wrote:You are fun C2W?


Even though her user name turns every direct address into a question?

Sounder wrote:Any particle is the agglutination of sub-particles that exhibit the proper combination of frequency, velocity, vector, and a cyclical balance between electro-magnetic attraction and static repulsion characteristics.

So there. :mrgreen:


Ha! Caught you!

http://www.google.com/search?client=ope ... 8&oe=utf-8

Google will soon make a deal to put their search field at both ends of "the Scale."
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
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The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:17 pm

BPH:

Stop that. Another one being smarter than me. Plus reminding me, doubtless to no effect other than prompting vague guilt and regret, that I should get off this Infinite Zero Medium and get back to reading books. Santayana, like I needed another one on the Thousand Author List.

But seriously: Thank you.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby alwyn » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Big Bang and the speed of light not being able to account for the present state of our universe...

I'm not a mathematician or anything but isn't that just the measure of the visible end of the spectrum?
The speed of light measures just that, but what color is thought? And how fast does that go?
Maybe in the universe, the medium is the message, not the substance...

philosophical musings on a rainy day...
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby compared2what? » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:30 pm

I'm not smarter than any other moderately smart person. Stop saying that. Thank you, though.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:43 pm

compared2what? wrote:I'm not smarter than any other moderately smart person. Stop saying that. Thank you, though.


But that would make me less smart than any other moderately smart person, or about the same. My limitless narcissism is once again wounded. I may have to throw a tantrum in this inconceivably vast and impersonal universe, right now!!!
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:27 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
compared2what? wrote:I'm not smarter than any other moderately smart person. Stop saying that. Thank you, though.


But that would make me less smart than any other moderately smart person, or about the same. My limitless narcissism is once again wounded. I may have to throw a tantrum in this inconceivably vast and impersonal universe, right now!!!


I'm a genius in my head! But all you've got is my word on that, because if you went by what manages to make it out of my head and actually appears here for you to read then you would have to conclude that I am considerably dumber than both of you. I can't wait for a consumer version of a thought recorder. The evil alphabet agencies have all the cool toys.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe (Damndest Thing I Ever Saw)

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:05 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:
compared2what? wrote:I'm not smarter than any other moderately smart person. Stop saying that. Thank you, though.


But that would make me less smart than any other moderately smart person, or about the same. My limitless narcissism is once again wounded. I may have to throw a tantrum in this inconceivably vast and impersonal universe, right now!!!


I'm a genius in my head! But all you've got is my word on that, because if you went by what manages to make it out of my head and actually appears here for you to read then you would have to conclude that I am considerably dumber than both of you. I can't wait for a consumer version of a thought recorder. The evil alphabet agencies have all the cool toys.


Good BPH, I beg to differ. Out of the three of us I am most clearly the dumbest. Please speak no more of it. I am so easily hurt.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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