9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Laodicean » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:58 pm

Just received this in my inbox from Sander Hicks:

FOLKS: I have three articles you should see. After nine years, the 9/11 Truth Movement is beginning to be taken seriously by the AntiWar Left.

I have published a primer on this issue that introduces the evidence to the curious.

And at this point, it's time to take the case to the courts. We are working on doing just that, starting with the case of Don Meserlian. We are using a law called "Misprision of Treason."

Read On!

1. The Boston Peace/Truth Movement Convergence
http://sanderhicks.com/newenglandreport.html

2. A new Primer on 9/11 Truth:
http://guerrillaunderground.ning.com/profiles/blogs/easing-you-into-911-truth-a

3. Misprision of Treason: Can the Meserlian Trial Bring the 9/11 Traitors to Justice?
http://sanderhicks.com/Misprision.html


--
Sander Hicks
http://www.sanderhicks.com

9/11 Truth Returns to Left Forum:
http://sanderhicks.com/leftforum2010.html

Truth is Revolutionary.
Truth is Anti-imperialist.
We are Unstoppable.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:36 pm

Even more shite.

As kenoma says above, these things are Turing tests.

Here's the only line that matters in the whole hackneyed, resentful, nervously-cackling and typically hyperladdish autoscreed (emphases added):

conspiracy theory [sic] seems to be cropping everywhere [sic], shadowing The Shock Doctrine sitting fairly centrally in Adam Curtis’s most recent piece, increasingly infecting the minds of work colleagues, friends and family.

http://theimpostume.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... r-you.html
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby norton ash » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:31 am

Laddishness infects the entry-level circles of journalism and politics. You need to be a wilfully-ignorant lad or ladette to work there these days. Or play that role with deep-cover dedication, and don't let the booze loosen your tongue.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby nathan28 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:41 pm

Moved from here (http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27322&start=15) to avoid thread hijack.

MacCruiskeen wrote:So, the point is... I have to say that one of the most inspiring and really pretty moving things about "9/11Truth" is that it has been an ongoing process of very stubborn and largely working-class self-education. It reminds me of my grandfather's generation struggling through Das Kapital or The Soul of Man Under Socialism at midnight, trying to acquire some real understanding of their situation after a day in the factory or down the mine, in the full knowledge that their daily newspapers were packed with murderous lies.



Except 9/11 Truth is simply positivism in the vernacular. It's not informed by any theory besides positivism and doesn't have an ends unless you tack one on to it. That's part of the reason "serious" commentators won't talk about it, because 9/11 Truth as a project of historical empiricism is like spinning your wheels. All the things you attribute to it as implicit, Mac, are your attributions; though common--if not in the majority, though they may be--those attributions are not inherent to the project, and simply a fortunate accident for those who find themselves on that trajectory.

Of course, that vernacularity--yes I know that's not a word--is one reason why snobby elites who advocate a left-populist or social democratic program discount 9/11 Truth. They have to mark their difference some way, even if they're going to serve the interests of the people they're looking down their noses at. At the same time, the snobbery of the left pundits is a mirror-image of the confusion that the controlled demolition theories are: both are speculative. One won't look at the evidence and another won't look for evidence (besides, of course, "look at the way it fell"), yet neither seems to acknowledge how little it brings into our consideration.

I realize I just implied that a political movement needs a theory behind it. That's not necessarily the case--though at a minimum a political movement needs an unified vision or at least a family resemblance in its desired ends--but it needs more than "Truth." In my rough estimation, the People of the Internet who advocate 9/11 Truth, be they Ickeians or Alex Jones fans or anarchists or libertarians or socialists, imagine some sort of vague good that will inevitably follow the revelation of 9/11 Truth, as though it were the eschaton, that truth might be forced on the leaders of men and somehow this truth will do something--just what isn't, and has not been, clear to me. I suspect many advocates of 9/11 Truth advocate military demobilization, but I don't always see that articulated, though that is a worth cause in itself *but* doesn't require 9/11 Truth, so I think that is largely another discussion.

And to get some perspective: 9/11/01 was simply not that big of an event compared to anything any nation besides the United States has experienced. I suspect the same way the bombing of the Maine, the Gulf of Tonkin, etc., are largely footnotes in light of the causi belli (?latin halp?) they became, 9/11 will fade into an opening paragraph somewhere in a history textbook. Even in the United States, more children and teenagers die from gunshots every year.

To be honest I find supposed Chicago liberal Barack Obama's performance as stooge for the right-wing to be more radicalizing (as in, "communism") than the endless passing-off of the 9/11 OCT has been; I have read that some felt the same way about Clinton, and I feel like I finally "got it"--no thanks to a long amount of time pouring over information about, e.g., Mohammed Atta. I never would have ventured into 9/11 Truth territory had it not been for a contract job I worked earlier in this aging decade, back when I was a misguided libertarian (read as: duped by the Cato Institute for the predator class) with cryptofascist leanings, that exposed me to the narco-terror-intel nexus.

On edit, I will readily grant I may be underestimating the significance of 9/11 Truth to the wider world and largely replicating the left-media pundits, just from a "believer's" angle. To me it grows less significant every day, in light of austerity programs and rumors of austerity programs and the looming threat of Peak Everything and the nightmarish dichotomy of socialism or barbarism, but again, others may find Thor's Hammer somewhere different than where I did.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:03 pm

nathan28 wrote:I realize I just implied that a political movement needs a theory behind it. That's not necessarily the case--though at a minimum a political movement needs an unified vision or at least a family resemblance in its desired ends--but it needs more than "Truth." In my rough estimation, the People of the Internet who advocate 9/11 Truth, be they Ickeians or Alex Jones fans or anarchists or libertarians or socialists, imagine some sort of vague good that will inevitably follow the revelation of 9/11 Truth, as though it were the eschaton, that truth might be forced on the leaders of men and somehow this truth will do something--just what isn't, and has not been, clear to me.


nathan28 wrote:And to get some perspective: 9/11/01 was simply not that big of an event compared to anything any nation besides the United States has experienced. I suspect the same way the bombing of the Maine, the Gulf of Tonkin, etc., are largely footnotes [...]


Nathan, it always astonishes me when I hear these objections, and they crop up incessantly.

The Cockburnite-Guardinista Leftists have no problem being BritishImperialism Truthers, Vietnam Truthers, IraqiWMD Truthers, GuantanamoTruthers, Enron Truthers, Chilean9/11Truthers, etc., etc., etc. In other words, they spend much of their time unearthing, analysing and publicising historical and contemporary truths. Clearly they too think it matters. Clearly they believe that what people know (or erroneously believe) will and must affect what they do and what they don't do.

How could it not? Why did the Party in Orwell's book place such importance in doublethink? Why was it so difficult to instil, even in the most willing Party members? And, pardon the bold type, but why should anyone doubt that the truth can affect people's behaviour, when no one denies that the lies of advertising, TV and the other mass media have a very profound & far-reaching effect?

History is always contested, and half the battle of the left has consisted in struggling to establish a historical record that did not ignore or obfuscate truths inconvenient to the ruling class. Just for instance: Here in Germany, many 68ers were shocked into political action by reading (and seeing films about) the words and deeds of the German ruling class during the Third Reich. They were shocked, too, to see how many old Nazis had survived and held onto powerful positions in public life, and by how little anyone in early-60s Germany wanted to talk about it. Some of those young people responded by becoming historians or sociologists or psychologists or teachers, some by becoming hippies, some by forming the Green Party, many by screaming at their parents for ignoring or repressing the truth, some by succumbing to drugs, and some by joining or sympathising with the Baader-Meinhof group. Nearly all of them marched against the Vietnam war and against the Shah of Iran, and more than a few of them lost their lives while doing one or more of these things. The government of Helmut Schmidt was in very serious trouble for a while, and some lasting and important changes have since taken place in German society. (The way people raise their kids, for a start. Not to mention the number of real Nazis they're prepared to tolerate in positions of power.)

Therefore: perceptions do indeed demonstrably affect actions, even if they don't positively determine them. This is particularly true when it's a perception of your own country and your own ruling class. QED.

Nor is it a matter of expecting the eschaton. Clearly today's Bundesrepublik Deutschland is not exactly the New Jerusalem, but at least it's not Nazi Germany! And la lutta continua, y'know? Rome wasn't razed in a day.

So, concretely, what might "9/11truth" eventually achieve? Well, if it acquired a critical mass, it might very well result in:

- very noisy, angry and even violent responses to public appearances by politicians;

- demonstrations so large, noisy and perhaps violent that they would be very difficult to ignore;

- a crisis in the maintenance of the Spectacle, if enough people stop buying newspapers;

- strikes, especially by public servants, and maybe even by soldiers.

For instance. And that's just for starters. Because even the most complacent citizens of the imperialist United States are likely to be pretty pissed-off if it becomes generally known that their rulers actually connived in the murder of 3,000 people in Manhattan so that they could wage two ruinously expensive wars that cost the lives of more than 3,000 more Americans.

It is a bit close to the bone, is it not? Like finding out that your father had murdered your mother. It would tend to affect your attitude to Daddy*, and your behaviour, even without the help of an adequate theoretical framework. It might well make you want to see him in jail, or even dead. Not least because: if he could that to her, then he could also do it you, or to your kids.

*Even if you had previously worshipped him as a war-hero.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby nathan28 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:12 pm

All good points, Mac. I realize I really have no idea what others' perceptions of the ruling class etc. are. For all I know those perceptions may be in need of radical resorting. Though I think that can only come out of a process, not some sudden a-ha moment, and I think it takes a lot of self-education.

On edit, I used to read Disinfo.com and Getting It during the '90s. Which isn't exactly typical, I don't think.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:40 am

Your board admin, Jeff Wells, denies the scientific proof of controlled demolition documented by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth.

Jeff Wells calls the thermite evidence "paint chips," just like Randi.

And nobody seems to notice. Or care.

Fascinating.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby barracuda » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:48 am

Thank you, Mr. Spock.

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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:57 am

Dr. Spock, anti-nuke/anti-Vietnam War protester, not a fictional futuristic semi-alien demonic militarist....says "your welcome"-

Image

Later in life Spock wrote a book entitled "Dr. Spock on Vietnam" ...
.....
In 1962, Spock joined The Committee for a Sane Nuclear Policy, otherwise known as SANE. Spock was politically outspoken and active in the movement to end the Vietnam War. In 1968, he and four others (including William Sloane Coffin, Benjamin Spock, Marcus Raskin, Mitchell Goodman, and Michael Ferber) were singled out for prosecution by then Attorney General Ramsey Clark on charges of conspiracy to counsel, aid, and abet resistance to the draft.[8] Spock and three of his alleged co-conspirators were convicted, although the five had never been in the same room together. His two-year prison sentence was never served; the case was appealed and in 1969 a federal court set aside his conviction.
In 1967, Spock was to be nominated as Martin Luther King, Jr.'s vice-presidential running mate at the National Conference for New Politics over Labor Day weekend in Chicago. According to William F. Pepper's Orders to Kill, however, the conference was broken up by agents provocateurs working for the government.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:58 am

Frikkin' "paint chips."

Wake...up.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby smiths » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:42 am

i noticed hugh, and i cared
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby smiths » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:49 am

i also think this statement is utter rubbish
9/11/01 was simply not that big of an event

i think you are about as wrong as its possible to be on that nathan
and
9/11 Truth is simply positivism in the vernacular. It's not informed by any theory besides positivism and doesn't have an ends unless you tack one on to it

its theory is encapsulated in its name,
truth, asserting that there is a lie to be corrected, and 9/11 asserting which day and event the lie refers to,
the correction of the lie is the end sought

its not very complicated
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby AlicetheKurious » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:04 am

smiths wrote:i noticed hugh, and i cared


ditto
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby barracuda » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:53 am

AlicetheKurious wrote:
smiths wrote:i noticed hugh, and i cared


ditto


Same here, but I suspect I may mean that in an entirely different way than you.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby dbcooper41 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:38 am

And to get some perspective: 9/11/01 was simply not that big of an event compared to anything any nation besides the United States has experienced. I suspect the same way the bombing of the Maine, the Gulf of Tonkin, etc., are largely footnotes in light of the causi belli (?latin halp?) they became, 9/11 will fade into an opening paragraph somewhere in a history textbook. Even in the United States, more children and teenagers die from gunshots every year.


to really put it in perspective, to the best of my knowledge, 9/11/01 was the single largest, non war related, (dresden, nagasaki, etc), act of mass murder in world history.
it was a very big event in the history of america and mankind.

and why the double standard?

those who support controlled demolition, which is the only theory that comes remotely close to explaining the events of 9/11, are expected to provide details down to the names of the perps and the actual explosive compounds used.

the "official" conspiracy theory was created through lies, disinfo and insinuation, yet no proof is ever demanded from those who support it.

but, slowly the lies slough off and more and more "average joes" realize how they've been lied to.
the trend is towards truth.

the challenge is preventing the enlightened from becoming discouraged by comments such as barracuda's "what are you gonna do about it?" and giving up hope for the truth.

again, why the double standard?

how about some CD deniers providing a tiny bit of evidence to support their alternate theories?
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